Homosexuality

[BilliardsBall]

You could actually read the study and find out.

But since I doubt you will: different androgen hormones at different levels at different stages of development cause different results. There is a lot of room for variability and we're learning new influences all the time. Right now I'm researching how androgens effect the expression of adhd in women differently than men.

I was being rhetorical. No one believes this research in the modern era where I can be hormonally and physically exactly in the mean of cisgender then identify as something else.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you agree then, that a person's sexual orientation is not dependent on the sex act that they are currently engaging.

Of course, just exchange "tendency" or "lust" or "choice" for orientation. But because some of this forum go into seizures if even one sentence of the Bible is correct, everyone is arguing against the Bible's statement that straights will have homosexual sex if libidinous/lustful despite what people do in prison. Ludicrous if you ask me.

Thankfully, God is infinite love and mercy, no matter one's orientation.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I was being rhetorical. No one believes this research in the modern era where I can be hormonally and physically exactly in the mean of cisgender then identify as something else.

By nobody you mean 'you.' Certainly not the medical community.

Also, being outside the mean doesn't mean you'll be transgender or gay either, as the millions of women with PCOS can attest. Because baseline hormones has nothing to do with it. You can have non-normative hormones at different stages in development even if you become average later, or visa versa. The study is talking about specific epigenetic switches reacting to specific hormone inputs at specific stages.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Of course, just exchange "tendency" or "lust" or "choice" for orientation. But because some of this forum go into seizures if even one sentence of the Bible is correct, everyone is arguing against the Bible's statement that straights will have homosexual sex if libidinous/lustful despite what people do in prison. Ludicrous if you ask me.

Thankfully, God is infinite love and mercy, no matter one's orientation.

Thank you for coming out as bi. Since you admit the only reason you don't have sex with men is because of personal choice, rather than attraction, but all it would take is a particularly horny day and available man to express your love for men.

We accept you as you are.
This is a safe space and we're proud of you.

Joking aside, the only one here that thinks that you need to be attracted to something to have sex with it is you )and possibly anyone boring enough to have never used a sex tool). Sexual orientation is about attraction. It describes what's going on between your ears, not what's going on between your legs.

You've provided only insistence but absolutely no evidence that gay people have different libidos than straight people.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Thank you for coming out as bi. Since you admit the only reason you don't have sex with men is because of personal choice, rather than attraction, but all it would take is a particularly horny day and available man to express your love for men.

We accept you as you are.
This is a safe space and we're proud of you.

Joking aside, the only one here that thinks that you need to be attracted to something to have sex with it is you )and possibly anyone boring enough to have never used a sex tool). Sexual orientation is about attraction. It describes what's going on between your ears, not what's going on between your legs.

You've provided only insistence but absolutely no evidence that gay people have different libidos than straight people.

I like to debate but only when we both listen. I've never said gays are more libidinous, I pointed to the fact that the Bible says lust can spill over into homosexual activity.

Another possible precursor to homosexual desire that is taboo to discuss today is abuse. There are lesbians who were abused by a man in their youth and vice versa for men which gives the lie to "I'm born this way; this is genetic."

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I like to debate but only when we both listen. I've never said gays are more libidinous, I pointed to the fact that the Bible says lust can spill over into homosexual activity.

Another possible precursor to homosexual desire that is taboo to discuss today is abuse. There are lesbians who were abused by a man in their youth and vice versa for men which gives the lie to "I'm born this way; this is genetic."

You literally led with the unsubstantiated claim that gays have a gene that makes them more libidinous. Lol. Don't put your failure to communicate what you mean on the listener.
Anyone, straight or gay, can be lusty. But 'homosexual activity' is a non-sequitor. Lust doesn't make one gay or straight. Someone who has a preference for men and women aren't gay, anyway, they're bi. But just being horny and willing to have sex with whatever is available isn't a sexuality.

Estimates range that the vast majority of women in the world have been abused by men, either having been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted and often at a young age. (Self included, a straight woman who experienced child molestation.) Men can be pretty gross that way.
If it were true that abuse makes lesbians then there should be a *lot* of lesbians out there. But the rate of SA experience among lesbians doesn't seem to be any higher than straight people.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I'm following from @Vouthon's thread which seems to be going in a different direction.

I saw on there some folks saying that essentially homosexual kin should be let go of. I first would like to know how Christians accord this with 'forgive seventy times seven' and eating with sinners and so on, and second how could any person, in his heart, disown a brother or sister or whoever, or a friend, for this? One can disagree with the behaviour, or one can repudiate the person, but I don't think this is an issue like murder or rape, by any means. In every other area of his life he could be a stellar person, a model student, a great giver, a considerate worker, but you're going to kick him out because he fell in love with another boy?

Could you find it in yourself to disown someone over this? Some of your friends may be closeted, some may be out, some may be your brothers or sisters.

Is this the way forward? I disagree massively with what the LGBT movement has done and become and I do not own any of that. But that is not what I'm talking about.

Hi Rival. Good afternoon. I hope you are well. Firstly, we need to consider the question of whether homosexual thoughts and actions are sinful. Then we can decide as to what we should do in regards to our response to homosexuality. According to Leviticus 18:22 says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Plain enough. It's an abomination to Yahweh.

In response to what you have said, about Yahshua our Savior eating with sinners. Yahshua did eat with sinners, but they were repentant sinners, not vile sinners who had no interest in changing. 2 Corinthians 6:17 says "Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith Yahweh, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you". We are commanded to stay separate from sin. Ezra 6:21 tells us that when we seek Yahweh, we must separate ourselves from sin (or sinners).

1 Corinthians 5 says " I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world" so in the New Testament we are taught not to mingle with sinners. After all, the scripture clearly tells us "Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals." in 1 Corinthians 15:33.

Homosexuals, or any other sinners, should be avoided lest we become contaminated with their way of thinking. It's as simple as that. When someone has Covid, they must isolate until they get it under control. If they don't, and you mingle with that person, you are putting your health at risk by doing so. We have to consider that just as there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body that can be damaged by allowing ourselves to be contaminated by the evil actions or thoughts of others. It's easy to say, just let them be, they are doing no harm to anyone, but in actual fact they are weakening your resolve to present yourselves sexually approved before Yahweh.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I like to debate but only when we both listen. I've never said gays are more libidinous, I pointed to the fact that the Bible says lust can spill over into homosexual activity.

Another possible precursor to homosexual desire that is taboo to discuss today is abuse. There are lesbians who were abused by a man in their youth and vice versa for men which gives the lie to "I'm born this way; this is genetic."

Are you still trying this? Where is your evidence that childhood abuse causes homosexuality?

And you didn't answer my question from last time ... I was abused by a person of the opposite sex when I was young. But I identify as heterosexual. So what's going on there, professor?
And as another poster mentioned, many (probably most) women have been sexually abused by a man at some point in their life. So if your theory holds up, most women should be lesbians, right? So, what happened then?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hi Rival. Good afternoon. I hope you are well. Firstly, we need to consider the question of whether homosexual thoughts and actions are sinful. Then we can decide as to what we should do in regards to our response to homosexuality. According to Leviticus 18:22 says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Plain enough. It's an abomination to Yahweh.

What you are describing here are thought crimes. Do you think people should be punished for thought crimes?

There are passages in Leviticus where God endorses slavery. So if we're sticking with Leviticus here, gay people are immoral and slavery is moral. Something doesn't sound right about that to me.
How many slaves do you own that you captured from the nations around you?

In response to what you have said, about Yahshua our Savior eating with sinners. Yahshua did eat with sinners, but they were repentant sinners, not vile sinners who had no interest in changing. 2 Corinthians 6:17 says "Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith Yahweh, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you". We are commanded to stay separate from sin. Ezra 6:21 tells us that when we seek Yahweh, we must separate ourselves from sin (or sinners).

1 Corinthians 5 says " I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world" so in the New Testament we are taught not to mingle with sinners. After all, the scripture clearly tells us "Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals." in 1 Corinthians 15:33.

Homosexuals, or any other sinners, should be avoided lest we become contaminated with their way of thinking. It's as simple as that. When someone has Covid, they must isolate until they get it under control. If they don't, and you mingle with that person, you are putting your health at risk by doing so. We have to consider that just as there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body that can be damaged by allowing ourselves to be contaminated by the evil actions or thoughts of others. It's easy to say, just let them be, they are doing no harm to anyone, but in actual fact they are weakening your resolve to present yourselves sexually approved before Yahweh.

Homosexuals should be avoided lest we become contaminated with their way of thinking? What does that mean?
Dude, they're just people like anyone else. But thanks for reminding me about how toxic religious belief can be.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You literally led with the unsubstantiated claim that gays have a gene that makes them more libidinous. Lol. Don't put your failure to communicate what you mean on the listener.
Anyone, straight or gay, can be lusty. But 'homosexual activity' is a non-sequitor. Lust doesn't make one gay or straight. Someone who has a preference for men and women aren't gay, anyway, they're bi. But just being horny and willing to have sex with whatever is available isn't a sexuality.

Estimates range that the vast majority of women in the world have been abused by men, either having been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted and often at a young age. (Self included, a straight woman who experienced child molestation.) Men can be pretty gross that way.
If it were true that abuse makes lesbians then there should be a *lot* of lesbians out there. But the rate of SA experience among lesbians doesn't seem to be any higher than straight people.

Scientists in their quest for a gay gene, especially the last two decades or so, put out concepts that made their way into popular magazines like Time. Summation--the gay gene and adultery gene was when people were more genetically libidinous.

The Bible has 18 statements on homosexuality. In Romans, it states that people will resort to degrading acts including homosexuality when their are lustful.

Again, two straight-oriented or straight-identifying men spend 10 years in prison. The more libidinous one is obviously going to more likely engage in homosexual acts.

Why did the atheist cross the road? Because the Bible said not to.

I'm growing tired of arguing over common sense statements like "when people are more libidinous, they have more sex, including risky behavior sex" and "magazines commonly had front page headlines in recent years that a gay gene or adultery gene was found--which was always in the story a libidinous genetic and hormonal mix".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you still trying this? Where is your evidence that childhood abuse causes homosexuality?

And you didn't answer my question from last time ... I was abused by a person of the opposite sex when I was young. But I identify as heterosexual. So what's going on there, professor?
And as another poster mentioned, many (probably most) women have been sexually abused by a man at some point in their life. So if your theory holds up, most women should be lesbians, right? So, what happened then?

I'm sorry, sincerely, for your past abuse. You gave an anecdote personally, and I appreciate your transparency and vulnerability, but one example is not a scientific statement, yes, professor? I profess Jesus Christ as Lord, that's what I profess.

Many women and men have been molested, to our shame as a human race, and underscoring the sinful, fallen nature of people. Sometimes, people who identify as gay or lesbian find their orientation changes when past trauma is resolved.

I didn't say childhood abuse is the sole cause of homosexuality or an absolute cause of it. I will definitely say that first and early sexual experiences clearly imprint, as in the animal kingdom. I am amazed when people say "I was born gay" while neglecting statements like "men abused me when I was prepubescent, my uncle and my stepdad, this abuse continued until early puberty, when I try to think about hetero sex I have strong impressions/feelings in my mind" and then go on to say "I was born gay."

Or this--people are REALLY angry with Ron DeSantis for asking that gender and sex orientation teaching be withheld until third grade in Florida--when the students are EIGHT YEARS OLD. How horrible to let a six-year-old be a kid without telling them they may be a boy in the body of a girl and etc.?!

Some even call the Florida law LGBT-targeting! WHY? Some kids will realize they are straight, too, if they hear the sex and gender ed at age 6.

Our world is lost IMHO, now it's nutty!!

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm sorry, sincerely, for your past abuse. You gave an anecdote personally, and I appreciate your transparency and vulnerability, but one example is not a scientific statement, yes, professor? I profess Jesus Christ as Lord, that's what I profess.

Ah, but I made a point about the larger female population as a whole, didn't I?

Many women and men have been molested, to our shame as a human race, and underscoring the sinful, fallen nature of people.

Yes, and more women then men, I'd venture to say. So there should be a LOT more lesbians in the world, according to your hypothesis.

Sometimes, people who identify as gay or lesbian find their orientation changes when past trauma is resolved.

According to .... ?

I didn't say childhood abuse is the sole cause of homosexuality or an absolute cause of it. I will definitely say that first and early sexual experiences clearly imprint, as in the animal kingdom. I am amazed when people say "I was born gay" while neglecting statements like "men abused me when I was prepubescent, my uncle and my stepdad, this abuse continued until early puberty, when I try to think about hetero sex I have strong impressions/feelings in my mind" and then go on to say "I was born gay."

Okay so now you're claiming that people being sexually abused by a person of the same sex causes homosexuality as well?

People say they were "born gay" or "born straight" because when the time came that they begin to be attracted to other human beings, they found themselves attracted to members of the same sex in the former case and members of opposite sex in the latter case (or both, if they're bisexual). That's when I realized I was heterosexual - when I started noticing I was attracted to members of the opposite sex. That was before I was sexually assaulted by a member of the opposite sex.

Or this--people are REALLY angry with Ron DeSantis for asking that gender and sex orientation teaching be withheld until third grade in Florida--when the students are EIGHT YEARS OLD. How horrible to let a six-year-old be a kid without telling them they may be a boy in the body of a girl and etc.?!

Gender is a social construct and should be taught as such. Let's stop teaching young boys that it's not masculine to show human emotions. That's not working out for us anymore.

I think all the hand wringing over this stuff is a bit over the top. I mean, they're not teaching 6 year olds out to have gay sex or whatever silly thing people think.

Some even call the Florida law LGBT-targeting! WHY? Some kids will realize they are straight, too, if they hear the sex and gender ed at age 6.

Our world is lost IMHO, now it's nutty!!

Our world is a lot better than it was just 50 years ago, if you ask me. And continuing to improve.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Summation--the gay gene and adultery gene was when people were more genetically libidinous.

I'm sure you thought this made sense in your head.

engage in homosexual acts.

Homosexuality isn't an act.

Why did the atheist cross the road? Because the Bible said not to.

Why did the fundamentalist make up a bunch of pseudoscience to post in a forum? Because he wants his preconceived notions to be verified by something other than his own deep insecurities even at the cost of coherency or ability to take in new information.

I'm growing tired of arguing over common sense statements like "when people are more libidinous, they have more sex, including risky behavior sex" and "magazines commonly had front page headlines in recent years that a gay gene or adultery gene was found--which was always in the story a libidinous genetic and hormonal mix".

Keep being tired then, because it's not nearly as 'common sense' as you think it is.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Ah, but I made a point about the larger female population as a whole, didn't I?


Yes, and more women then men, I'd venture to say. So there should be a LOT more lesbians in the world, according to your hypothesis.


According to .... ?


Okay so now you're claiming that people being sexually abused by a person of the same sex causes homosexuality as well?

People say they were "born gay" or "born straight" because when the time came that they begin to be attracted to other human beings, they found themselves attracted to members of the same sex in the former case and members of opposite sex in the latter case (or both, if they're bisexual). That's when I realized I was heterosexual - when I started noticing I was attracted to members of the opposite sex. That was before I was sexually assaulted by a member of the opposite sex.



Gender is a social construct and should be taught as such. Let's stop teaching young boys that it's not masculine to show human emotions. That's not working out for us anymore.

I think all the hand wringing over this stuff is a bit over the top. I mean, they're not teaching 6 year olds out to have gay sex or whatever silly thing people think.


Our world is a lot better than it was just 50 years ago, if you ask me. And continuing to improve.

The one point that upsets me most in your post--"not a big deal to take time with 6-year-olds to explain they may be in the wrong body". LET THEM BE KIDS.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The one point that upsets me most in your post--"not a big deal to take time with 6-year-olds to explain they may be in the wrong body". LET THEM BE KIDS.

What??

What I said was this:
"I think all the hand wringing over this stuff is a bit over the top. I mean, they're not teaching 6 year olds out to have gay sex or whatever silly thing people think."


And once again you've failed to answer a single question posed to you in regards to backing up your claims and hypotheses.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

What you are describing here are thought crimes. Do you think people should be punished for thought crimes?

There are passages in Leviticus where God endorses slavery. So if we're sticking with Leviticus here, gay people are immoral and slavery is moral. Something doesn't sound right about that to me.
How many slaves do you own that you captured from the nations around you?



Homosexuals should be avoided lest we become contaminated with their way of thinking? What does that mean?
Dude, they're just people like anyone else. But thanks for reminding me about how toxic religious belief can be.

Hi SkepticThinker. Good afternoon. It may sound harsh but the reality of the situation is that unrepentant sinners, regardless what that sin is, should be avoided lest we also be consumed in their sin. This is the lesson of Sodom and Gommorah. Lot and his two daughters had to separate themselves from that wicked people in order to save their lives. 1 Corinthians 15:44 says "If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." Just as we nourish our physical body with food and rest, and take action to protect it from ailments and illnesses, so we must do so with our spiritual body.

I'm not a heartless person. Yahweh and Yahshua are not heartless people. They are very loving. They however understand that separation and actually sanctification is an integral part of the worship of Yahweh. Hebrews 12:14 says "Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see Yahweh:" We will never come to love Yahweh unless we remain separated from the world. 1 John 2:15 says: "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them." We must remain separate if we are to ensure our salvation.

A few months ago I heard another song on the radio at work by an individual called Lil Nas X and it was one of the most vile songs I have ever heard in my life. Although many people liked the tune, I wonder if they had paid close attention to the lyrics. He turned out to be a homosexual. Now I'm not saying that all homosexuals produce vile songs, but I am saying that unrepentant sinners, regardless what that sin is will produce evil fruit which if you partake of will perish with them. Can you live off a diet of rotten fruit? I don't think you'd live very long by doing so.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:16-18 - American Standard Version

In terms of slavery, as long as slave owners follow the law to love our neighbors as ourselves, slavery can be advantageous. Having a roof over your head, bread to eat and work to accomplish is a blessing so long as one isn't mistreated. The reason why slavery has a bad name is because of the abuse of its subjects.

Finally you mention thought crimes but I don't just refer to thought crimes exclusively. Even so, we know from even the ten commandments that thinking about evil is a sin. The 10th commandment proves this, which regulates our thoughts. Our savior Yahshua the Messiah also spoke of sinning in thought in scriptures such as Matthew 5:28 and Matthew 15:19. Or haven't you read the account of Noah, that it tells us that "Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5), thoughts therefore matter and in fact, thoughts usually come before actions. They determine what we do so it is vitally important that we control our thoughts and not be as the wicked people of Noah's time who spent their time doing everything but meditating on the Law.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hi SkepticThinker. Good afternoon. It may sound harsh but the reality of the situation is that unrepentant sinners, regardless what that sin is, should be avoided lest we also be consumed in their sin. This is the lesson of Sodom and Gommorah. Lot and his two daughters had to separate themselves from that wicked people in order to save their lives. 1 Corinthians 15:44 says "If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." Just as we nourish our physical body with food and rest, and take action to protect it from ailments and illnesses, so we must do so with our spiritual body.

I'm not a heartless person. Yahweh and Yahshua are not heartless people. They are very loving. They however understand that separation and actually sanctification is an integral part of the worship of Yahweh. Hebrews 12:14 says "Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see Yahweh:" We will never come to love Yahweh unless we remain separated from the world. 1 John 2:15 says: "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them." We must remain separate if we are to ensure our salvation.

A few months ago I heard another song on the radio at work by an individual called Lil Nas X and it was one of the most vile songs I have ever heard in my life. Although many people liked the tune, I wonder if they had paid close attention to the lyrics. He turned out to be a homosexual. Now I'm not saying that all homosexuals produce vile songs, but I am saying that unrepentant sinners, regardless what that sin is will produce evil fruit which if you partake of will perish with them. Can you live off a diet of rotten fruit? I don't think you'd live very long by doing so.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:16-18 - American Standard Version

In terms of slavery, as long as slave owners follow the law to love our neighbors as ourselves, slavery can be advantageous. Having a roof over your head, bread to eat and work to accomplish is a blessing so long as one isn't mistreated. The reason why slavery has a bad name is because of the abuse of its subjects.

Finally you mention thought crimes but I don't just refer to thought crimes exclusively. Even so, we know from even the ten commandments that thinking about evil is a sin. The 10th commandment proves this, which regulates our thoughts. Our savior Yahshua the Messiah also spoke of sinning in thought in scriptures such as Matthew 5:28 and Matthew 15:19. Or haven't you read the account of Noah, that it tells us that "Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5), thoughts therefore matter and in fact, thoughts usually come before actions. They determine what we do so it is vitally important that we control our thoughts and not be as the wicked people of Noah's time who spent their time doing everything but meditating on the Law.

I stopped at "slavery can be advantageous."
Your system of morality is immoral, imo. Your view of gay people is appalling to me. Your views on slavery are appalling to me. Your views on thought crimes are appalling to me.
That's because you're adhering to bronze age ideas of morality that most of society has long since discarded, thankfully.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I stopped at "slavery can be advantageous."
Your system of morality is immoral, imo. Your view of gay people is appalling to me. Your views on slavery are appalling to me. Your views on thought crimes are appalling to me.
That's because you're adhering to bronze age ideas of morality that most of society has long since discarded, thankfully.

Hi SkepticThinker. If you analyse your thoughts and figure out why you have a hatred of slavery, you'll realise it's because of the abuse of slaves as was the case in the 17th and 18th centuries, where enslaved Africans worked mainly on the tobacco, rice and indigo plantations. If Yahweh's Law was kept, where we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and slaves weren't mistreated as was the case then, then you would have a different view of slavery.

In terms of my views being appalling to you, I appall at the way slaves were kept in 17th and 18th centuries and before that, if that may be any consolation to you. Slaves in the Bible had rights, the slaves of our era's didn't seem to have any rights. But if I must I'd rather seem appalling to you than appalling to Yahweh. Yahweh knows what He is doing and His Law is perfect. Proverbs 28:4 says "They that forsake the law praise the wicked; But such as keep the law contend with them."

 

[BilliardsBall]

What??

What I said was this:
"I think all the hand wringing over this stuff is a bit over the top. I mean, they're not teaching 6 year olds out to have gay sex or whatever silly thing people think."


And once again you've failed to answer a single question posed to you in regards to backing up your claims and hypotheses.

And I'll have to delay further, am about to leave for a ten-day trip without internet/computer. Be well.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So, you wish to be enslaved? After all, if you think loving others as yourself included slavery, you must want to be one.