Honest Discussion By A Pro-Gun Advocate On Firearm Laws

[Falvlun]

And people take drivers training. How is that working out?

Relatively well. Have you seen the driving that occurs in Russia or India?

Yes, driving accidents do occur. How do you know that there wouldn’t be more without drivers training?

 

[averageJOE]

Yeah, and certain aspects have been for the worse


another person not doing research.
High schoolers enter Army through Split Option program

If I would trust someone in a combat unit in a hostile fire zone who is under the age of 21 then I will trust them in a non-combat situation. If they screw up then they face the consequences of their actions. Enough said.



Try reading what I wrote in Post# 128

Ah yes...the good ol Split program. Almost forgot about that one. You got me. lol But you have to remember, that's a National Guard program only and they have to go back to and finish school after basic, on an undeployable status.

However, it changes nothing about the difference of an 18 year old purchasing an AR-15 and an 18 year old "issued" an M4 in the military. The military has EXTREME gun control polices and restrictions.

 

[Revoltingest]

The difference is that the 18 yr old in the military is given extensive training on how to safely use their weapons.

I am for a training program implemented for anyone who wants to buy or own a gun, as well as additional training required for different types of gun. Do that, and no need for a 21 age restriction. They would demonstrate their competence, just like a kid in the military does.

Those 18 year old military recruits aren't given much responsibility.
Sure, they train to fire rifles, but they don't get to possess them
to the extent we civilians do. They're closely supervised, & on
their base, they're unarmed (which actually poses a danger when
a Nidal Hasan commits mass murder).

Age restrictions are tricky....21 years old is still rather immature,
but just a traditional cut-off age for things like drinking. Perhaps
instead of age, meeting some training requirements would be
better, eh?

 

[esmith]

Relatively well. Have you seen the driving that occurs in Russia or India?

Yes, driving accidents do occur. How do you know that there wouldn’t be more without drivers training?

That is not the point I was making.
How many people are killed in the US every year due to automobile accidents? How many of those drivers that were involved in any accident let alone deadly accidents have had drivers training?
The point is that having gone through training at one time does not prevent a person from having an accident. The same would exist for requiring someone to have firearm safety training prior to purchasing a firearm....it will not prevent accidents.

 

[esmith]

Those 18 year old military recruits aren't given much responsibility.
Sure, they train to fire rifles, but they don't get to possess them
to the extent we civilians do. They're closely supervised, & on
their base, they're unarmed (which actually poses a danger when
a Nidal Hasan commits mass murder).

Age restrictions are tricky....21 years old is still rather immature,
but just a traditional cut-off age for things like drinking. Perhaps
instead of age, meeting some training requirements would be
better, eh?

Sorry Rev, have to disagree. See post #144 above

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry Rev, have to disagree. See post #144 above

I don't see any disagreement with post #144.
Training & age should both be factors in various levels of gun usage.

 

[esmith]

I don't see any disagreement with post #144.
Training & age should both be factors in various levels of gun usage.

But firearms training does not indicate that the person in the future will not make a mistake, just as having drivers training will not indicate a person will not have an accident.

 

[Revoltingest]

But firearms training does not indicate that the person in the future will not make a mistake, just as having drivers training will not indicate a person will not have an accident.

Training can reduce mistakes, be it guns or cars.
Reasonable reduction is what matters.
Anyone seeking zero mistakes is misguided.

 

[Falvlun]

That is not the point I was making.
How many people are killed in the US every year due to automobile accidents? How many of those drivers that were involved in any accident let alone deadly accidents have had drivers training?
The point is that having gone through training at one time does not prevent a person from having an accident. The same would exist for requiring someone to have firearm safety training prior to purchasing a firearm....it will not prevent accidents.

I believe I responded to your point: without knowing how many accidents we would have without drivers training, you can’t really claim that drivers ed doesn’t prevent accidents.

Your last sentence is not proven: you do not know that drivers training does not prevent accidents. All we know is that it does not prevent ALL accidents.

I do not expect firearm training to prevent ALL accidents. Such an expectation is unreasonable.

Preventing some (or many?) accidents, however, is still a worthwhile goal.

Furthermore, let’s not pretend that training isn’t a time tested way of ensuring that someone as a modicum of competence.

 

[esmith]

Training can reduce mistakes, be it guns or cars.
Reasonable reduction is what matters.
Anyone seeking zero mistakes is misguided.

I believe I responded to your point: without knowing how many accidents we would have without drivers training, you can’t really claim that drivers ed doesn’t prevent accidents.

Your last sentence is not proven: you do not know that drivers training does not prevent accidents. All we know is that it does not prevent ALL accidents.

I do not expect firearm training to prevent ALL accidents. Such an expectation is unreasonable.

Preventing some (or many?) accidents, however, is still a worthwhile goal.

Furthermore, let’s not pretend that training isn’t a time tested way of ensuring that someone as a modicum of competence.

So would you accept the training given by a responsible adult including the parents of said person as long as the adult is knowledgeable?

 

[Revoltingest]

So would you accept the training given by a responsible adult including the parents of said person as long as the adult is knowledgeable?

Sounds good to me.
But the future portends government getting more & more involved.
I trained my own son, & then he went on for professional training.

 

[Falvlun]

So would you accept the training given by a responsible adult including the parents of said person as long as the adult is knowledgeable?

No. It would need to be a standardized curriculum. If the parent is a certified instructor, then sure.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wondered about the choice of the word "infringed" in the 2nd Amendment. It wasn't "interfered with", "reduced", "curbed", or "restricted". So I looked up historical usage.....
infringe | Origin and meaning of infringe by Online Etymology Dictionary
Definition of INFRINGE
the definition of infringe
Guess what?
This won't clarify anything.

 

[esmith]

No. It would need to be a standardized curriculum. If the parent is a certified instructor, then sure.

Who would certify a firearms instructor?

 

[Falvlun]

Who would certify a firearms instructor?

Why are you acting like training and instructors are a completely novel concept?

 

[pearl]

How many people are killed in the US every year due to automobile accidents?

But not all at once like sitting ducks in a closed in duck pond.

 

[esmith]

Why are you acting like training and instructors are a completely novel concept?

Why are you evading the questions. You seem to be advocating for training and all I want to know is who would certify you instructions?
Would I be qualified instructor with the following experience
21 years in the military handling firearms
Range Safety Officer at a gun club
Hold Idaho Enhanced CCW permit.

 

[esmith]

But not all at once like sitting ducks in a closed in duck pond.

Understand, you don't have a clue what you are talking about..

 

[Revoltingest]

Understand, you don't have a clue what you are talking about..
View attachment 20584

Actually, he introduces a good point, ie, that a school's students & staff are sitting ducks.
The left generally opposes "more guns", often meaning legally prohibiting guns in schools.
But murderers aren't constrained by this prohibition, since violating the law is their intent.
And with the left so often telling us they don't want to ban guns, they support circumstances
wherein a perp bent on mayhem is guaranteed soft targets.

 

[Falvlun]

Why are you evading the questions. You seem to be advocating for training and all I want to know is who would certify you instructions?
Would I be qualified instructor with the following experience
21 years in the military handling firearms
Range Safety Officer at a gun club
Hold Idaho Enhanced CCW permit.

It’s unreasonable to expect me to have details like that, and frankly, I don’t see the relevance. I leave that to people more qualified.

But I know that training people is a common, normal process, and I know that having certified instructors is as well.

For example, I had to take a class and log so many hours to become a Water Safety Instructor so I could teach swim lessons.

I would think your experience would make you an excellent candidate for an instructor, after passing a class on how to teach the required material.