McBell
Unbound
As a blanket "cure all" I agree.
However, sometimes its takes violence to get to non-violence.
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How about Violence be the next "Gay Movement"?
- Thread starter Just_me_Mike
- Start date
However, sometimes its takes violence to get to non-violence.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
McBell
Unbound
I already stated that violence should be a last resort.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
McBell
Unbound
linwood
Well-Known Member
Completely missed my point.
My point wasn`t self preservation.
My point was that IF you could get people to sacrifice their lives for others(which I also don`t agree with but that`s another argument) violence would still win out because the violent would be the only people left standing.
It seems you have little understanding of human nature and evolutionary psychology.
Those who would allow such extreme pacifism to destroy them before they could pro-create could not pass on their ideology because THEY`D ALL BE DEAD!!
I thought it was pretty straightforward.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
First thought that comes to mind is proceeding with such an idea as I am suggesting in the light of what you are declaring simply denotes a great amount of care would have to go into the process, so your extreme results don't take place.Completely missed my point.
My point wasn`t self preservation.
My point was that IF you could get people to sacrifice their lives for others(which I also don`t agree with but that`s another argument) violence would still win out because the violent would be the only people left standing.
It seems you have little understanding of human nature and evolutionary psychology.
Those who would allow such extreme pacifism to destroy them before they could pro-create could not pass on their ideology because THEY`D ALL BE DEAD!!
I thought it was pretty straightforward.
I also don't think the world is so full of people that are willing to cut someone throat the moment another says I am not going to fight you. As I said, those that refuse to stop being violent can be placed in jail, we have millions of ways to apprehend people without killing them. You assume I mean we should sit around with our thumbs up our *****, when I have already said in this thread that it is violence and killing that we need to diminish. I am not sure why you feel the need to include order and control when it comes to enforcing and educating such a society.
Violence is not the only way to control a populace, it just so happens it is the most profitable way, so we carry on as usual.
linwood
Well-Known Member
It doesn`t matter.
This is where you show your ignorance of evolutionary ethics.
The violent minority will eventually outnumber and in fact destroy the entirety of the pacifist majority due to their pacifism.
Their ideology will die with them and violence will rule.
How?
How do you plan on incarcerating a violent person without using violence to counteract his/her violence?
This cannot be done.
A pacifist cannot control a violent person by any physical means at all.
If no one wants something to change, why change it?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
This is so unfounded. Gay rights continues to spread because it is the right thing to do. Race equality continues to get better cause it is the right thing to do. Humans have a tendency to eventually accept the right thing to do.
It is utter BS for you to think planting a seed will not work. You keep pointing to evolutionary ethics and how I am ignorant, but I am citing perfect examples with race and gender equality that have worked and continue to work. Overnight? Of course not. Why be such a kill-joint?
It is attitudes just as your that kept gay people in the closet for so long, and perpetuated slavery for so long. Fear, pure and simple.
Why are you asking me how? If you are so certain that it can't be done you would not ask me how.
Let's assume you are a violent person, and I am the weak pacifist. I engage you in a conversation and we hit it off. I invite you to some other engagement, of which when you show up you enter a room and as you enter you become locked in. At this point, you are now restrained. From here there are another dozen ways to get you to cuff yourself, and surrender so that you will be placed in prison.
Granted this is arbitrary, but it would work. No violence needed. So?
Mike, when this country started, only white land owners could vote. Slavery was legal in some states.
The white land owners gave women and blacks the right to vote.
White men went to war and fought the south to free the slaves.
Straight people will (and should) give the GLBT community equal rights.
Why does this happen? Because it was and is the right thing to do.
Your confused, slaves did not free themselves did they?
If we where to take your non-violent suggestions, people would still own slaves.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Ah Yes, I have said that violence was not useful in the past. Thanks for putting words in my mouthMike, when this country started, only white land owners could vote. Slavery was legal in some states.
The white land owners gave women and blacks the right to vote.
White men went to war and fought the south to free the slaves.
Straight people will (and should) give the GLBT community equal rights.
Why does this happen? Because it was and is the right thing to do.
Your confused, slaves did not free themselves did they?
If we where to take your non-violent suggestions, people would still own slaves.
As it is, I said no such thing. It is time in history that we start considering such things. That past is the past, we can do better than that.
Now to your presentation that violence was the key factor in the success of gays and slaves, simply shows your apparent ignorance of the whole matter. Violence was a part of it, but not the be all end all. Education I think had a tiny role in the matter.
linwood
Well-Known Member
You believe the rights we share in this society came through pacifism?
You are not only ignorant of evolutionary ethics you are just as ignorant of history.
If not for violent reaction to oppression we`d all still be taking tea at 4 every damn day and sending our money off to Georges great great grandson.
Blacks would still be slaves and women would still be mans property.
Read a book.
It was violence that enabled these rights you speak of.
So you advocate incarceration for mind crimes?
The violent person in your scenario isn`t being violent when you engage him.
What is you reason for engaging him?
Are you kidding me?
Have you ever seen a bar brawl?
Have you ever witness road rage?
Have you ever witnessed actual violence?
Please tell me how you`re going to pull a ****** off assailant away from a battered victim with "Please"?
No it wouldn`t work.
I don`t know what world you live in but it ain`t mine.
Now to your presentation that violence was the key factor in the success of gays and slaves, simply shows your apparent ignorance of the whole matter. Violence was a part of it, but not the be all end all. Education I think had a tiny role in the matter.
I'm not ignorant of the whole matter Mike. Women and blacks made their case for change. Education had much more than a tiny role in the matter.
The same holds true today for the GLBT folks. I believe I was ignorant of many of these issues even though I have gay friends. You can thank our queer RF members who had the patience to educate and finally convince me to see things differently.
If you would, consider the martial art programs we have. They don't teach violence, they teach discretion and confidence. They learn to avoid conflict when possible and to take care of business only when absolutely necessary.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
You are boring now. Name calling does little to help your position. When did I say pacifism built the rights we have????????????? I never said that.
OK caveman, I agree... Let's move on. Does that mean we must change everything with violence? Your assertion that violence is the only way something can change is simply wrong. Yes it was the way of the past and yes it has been pivotal in many cases. However, you can't be that dumb to think the only way going forward is to enact violence to change something.
This was assuming I had witnessed something violent for arguments sake.
Have I witnessed violence? Of course we all have. I also said it would take time to quell the violence. So if someone is in the process of hurting someone and they are drugged out of their mind, there are ways to restrain them without violence. This shows your ignorance on methods of restraint without causing pain. Not my problem, that's yours.
OK, thanks for sharing...
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
As we evolve in the coming future, we learn better ways to restrain. Example Martial Arts in America from the 60's on until the late 90's was consistently ridiculous. It wasn't until the UFC type arena arrived to actually test these "styles" and we learned very quickly none of them worked in a real fight. It was these Brazilian guys who built a style based of reality of today that hands down beat everyone.
America has caught up quick and we now (at least the ones that are not ignorant) evolved our understanding of attack, defense, restraint, etc...
Point being, methods of altercation continue to evolve, and violence and the ignorance of combat and confrontation has greatly been effected by these modern tactics I just spoke of.
As to Martial Arts teaching non-violence until absolutely needed is quite useful only if they were actually teaching something useful. Today we are finding the teachings are better and better. Jiu-Jitsu for example teaches you to restraint a person without actually hurting them, through several choke methods that allow the person to become decapitated without feeling any pain. So, it is within our abilities and future to be able to handle altercations without causing pain. 100% of the time? Of course not, but 90% would be great wouldn't it?
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
I know I couldn't help it. Hope I don't get a point for that one. Sorry...
My violent tendencies got the best of me.
Nobody's taking my whip away, if that's part of the plan.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Don't be silly, you are confusing pain and pleasure now. Besides I doubt a small beautiful women such as yourself can really get enough velocity on that whip to hurt anyoneNobody's taking my whip away, if that's part of the plan.