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How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

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Enoughie

Active Member
This is ludicrous, one only has to know who Stanley Fischer is and his relationship to Bernanke.
Ignorance must be bliss :shrug:

What's ludicrous is that you're accusing people of massive corruption, and claiming that the money went to the Israeli government without providing a shred of evidence to back this up.

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Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
:troll:
Actually, there are those here who want to have an informed conversation, and those who are trolling and provide nothing but hateful rhetoric. Guess to which group you belong?

You are not informed politically or spiritually.
Nevertheless God loves you
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Then you can look at the scores of Palestinian refugee camps that also produce many of the right wing Hamas supportes who also have "nothing left to lose".

Maybe their supporters are such, but the people who go and commit acts of terror/suicide bombings mostly tend to be middle-class/upper-class. That is the case in Israel/Palestine.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Bismillah

Submit
Maybe their supporters are such, but the people who go and commit acts of terror/suicide bombings mostly tend to be middle-class/upper-class. That is the case in Israel/Palestine.

I know that Hamas heavily recruits from those camps and that they comprise a strong base of support for that organization.

Do you have any references to those who actually commit these bombings in Israel?
 

Enoughie

Active Member
You are not informed politically or spiritually.
Nevertheless God loves you
Actually I am.

I'm informed enough not to hate people because of ignorance, because some book of fiction says so, or for any other reason.

Evidently you're not.

There is no spirituality in hating people. You should be ashamed of yourself.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Bismillah

Submit
I think the U.S should continue its funding until Hamas drops its Charter and then maybe there could be progress

Why should the U.S continue its funding when Israel is reluctant to make peace with Fatah

Please, I would like to know what you think can be done to smooth the process of these specific negotiations.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
I know that Hamas heavily recruits from those camps and that they comprise a strong base of support for that organization.

Do you have any references to those who actually commit these bombings in Israel?

Israeli Security Service (Shin Bet)
Suicide Bomber Statistical Study
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Suicide bombers are predominately single men, relatively educated and aged between 17 and 24. It was found that 23 per cent of suicide bombers were university graduates, 24 per cent finished High School and 6 per cent finished elementary school.

That's one source. I have more (if I find them) if you want.
_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 

Bismillah

Submit
That is 1/4 that have a higher education. Hardly a majority and when it comes down to it, the majority of these men have an education from the local university in Gaza.

Considering that unemployment regularly hits 60% there, that many Palestinians illegally enter Israel for meager pay and are shot for it, and that many recruits are indeed victims of "targeted strikes" that result in innocent Palestinian deaths.

edit: I have to leave now, hopefully we can continue our discussion tomorrow :)
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Actually I am.

I'm informed enough not to hate people because of ignorance, because some book of fiction says so, or for any other reason.

Evidently you're not.

There is no spirituality in hating people. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I do not hate people, but I do hate injustice and injustices are committed by people. I simply point that out
 

Enoughie

Active Member
I do not hate people, but I do hate injustice and injustices are committed by people. I simply point that out

No. You hate Jews. You have a perverted sense of what justice is. You think Jews are solely to blame for their own suffering over the centuries, and for all the problems in the Middle East.

You are utterly ignorant about the politics in the Middle East, and you do not care to get informed. You only care to spread your hateful rhetoric.

All these make you a disgusting human being.

You should get educated a bit about the issues before you go around spewing more hate.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
How about I name a couple current ones, Paul Wolfowitz and Ben Bernanke? Can any two people be more corrupt? Don't say there is no leaning towards the state of Israel.

Still waiting for that whole evidence thing. Also, exactly how have the actions of Mrsrs. Wolfowitz and Bernanke helped the state of Israel?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
No reply Auto, I named two off the top of my head and I stand firm they are both corrupt to the max and major Israeli state supporters, funneling billions for corrupt reasons...

Alright, now that we've established you have no evidence, would you stop your anti-semitic hate-mongering before I report you? Thanks.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
free spirit and Numinous: Do you notice how Abibi is able to present his position and advance his cause without resorting to jew-hating lies? That's how it's done.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
800px-Provinces_-_Arab_League.PNG


This a more accurate map of the "little guy" Arab League. Only two of the 22 members of this group have a treaty with Israel

israelmap.gif

I wasn't at all thinking of the arab league when i made my metaphor. i was speaking more along the lines of just Israel and "Palestine"... like the peaceful person next to an ankle biting rat.... people give Israel grief because Israel is bigger... but they don't realize that the Palestinians are the problem.

Like the little guy swinging at the big guy.

I can't believe my metaphor was taken so wildly out of its meaning by so many people.


Wow.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
I am not a semite so I wouldn't know the intricacies but:

The intricacies of what it means to be a semite is kinda irrelevant when talking about the phrase anti-semitism.

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#cite_note-Judenhass-1 and that has been its normal use since then.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#cite_note-JustJews-2
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
I wasn't at all thinking of the arab league when i made my metaphor. i was speaking more along the lines of just Israel and "Palestine"... like the peaceful person next to an ankle biting rat.... people give Israel grief because Israel is bigger... but they don't realize that the Palestinians are the problem.

Like the little guy swinging at the big guy.

I can't believe my metaphor was taken so wildly out of its meaning by so many people.


Wow.
I got what you were saying. I said something similar by calling the PA a spoiled child who throws a temper tantrum when told "no" for the first time. But apparently your analogy hit more closely to home.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Doesn't Israel have a peace treaty with Jordan as well? Also, Cyprus likely has no issues with Israel, most of Saudi Arabia is unoccupied desert (correct me if I'm wrong), Iraq kind of needs to focus on itself for the time being, Lebanon knows that going to war would be a very bad idea (for the most part), Yemen... isn't much of a player... and with just those you've shrunken the Arab "big guy" by quite a bit. Iran's probably the only viable threat.

Take in to account the weaponry Israel has at its disposal, the fact that it doesn't share a border with Iran, the fact that more countries support Israel than Iran... no, I think it is safe to conclude that Israel is the "big guy" here.
When it comes to the Middle East, Israel is not the big guy. it is the stronger guy. there are nations in the middle east which number in dozens of millions, in some cases more than 80 million strong. Israel today has about 6 million Jews. it is a tiny drop in the ocean of the middle east, which numbers hundreds of millions of Arabs, Persians, etc.
there are nations in the middle east which are armed with the best Western technology. have a military with incredible size, may have petrol to have a leverage on regional politics.
Israel in the last 2-3 decades has began to be viewed as the 'bigger guy', because the governments and armies of various mid eastern nations, had to face with the fact and regional reality, that they cannot defeat Israel militarily and cleanse the middle east of an Israeli state. a couple of these nations signed a peace treaty with Israel (Egypt in 1979 and Jordan in 1994). from the 80s onward, for the most part, Israel has shifted from dealing and fighting organized armies to a war against terrorist organizations backed by stronger mid eastern states, such as Syria and Iran, nations such as Syria choose to empower the major terrorist organizations in the region to now fight a proxy war for them, and to maintain their classical hold on nations such as Lebanon. for a while now Israel has been fighting a long battle against terrorist organizations which is conducted in unconventional terms, and involves civilian population in the area of conflict. from this stage on, Israel has turned in the minds of many from the maverick military society into the bigger guy who pounds the organizations which provoke him. after the world has seen in the decades after the establishment of the state of Israel the images of the destruction of Arab armies which represent nations with vast populations led by governments who propagated to these people the annihilation of Israel, the images have changed in the last couple or three decades to images coming from a nation which fights a different war, a war against terrorists in populated areas, guerilla wars in the South Lebanon , and modern urban and asymmetric warfare in general.
a nation of a handful of million which was able to defeat outnumbering armed forces equipped with Soviet weapons and technology, made the world see images of the desert decorated with thousands of boots of fleeing Egyptian soldiers, is now a key player in counter terrorism and asymmetrical warfare, the game has changed. Israeli soldiers of the last generations no longer deal with the threat of regular Armed forces, they are dealing with the results of the campaigns of the previous veterans, now Israeli soldiers are serving in the Gaza strip, the west bank, or previously in South Lebanon. all these scenarios and territories directly linked to the results of the Arab-Israeli wars, such as territory loss by Egypt and Jordan.
 
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Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
I got what you were saying. I said something similar by calling the PA a spoiled child who throws a temper tantrum when told "no" for the first time. But apparently your analogy hit more closely to home.

Oh. Cool. I saw a few posts getting bent out of shape at the idea of Israel being called the "big guy" especially in comparison to the Arab league... and I thought you guys thought that's what I was implying.

I'm glad you cleared that up.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Why should the U.S continue its funding when Israel is reluctant to make peace with Fatah

Please, I would like to know what you think can be done to smooth the process of these specific negotiations.
Just off the bat, I want to say that I don't support everything the U.S. does. However, there is a logical reason for the U.S. funding Israel. First, it is a benefit to us. It gives the U.S. a reliable ally in the Middle East. More so, they vote with us quite often in the U.N.

In addition though, they can test out our military instruments in real world combat.

Militarily, keeping Israel as a good ally is simply a strategic move for the U.S. I'm not saying it is right, but it makes sense to me.
 
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