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How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

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Enoughie

Active Member
For the past 120 years or so, the Arab-Israeli conflict could be boiled down to a simple difference in worldviews.

(notice I don't say Israeli-Palestinian, because if not for the negative Arab-Muslim influence, Jews and Palestinians could have lived in peace in one state for a looong time now)



On the one hand you have the Zionist worldview about the "State of the Jews," (or "Jewish State") as articulated by the founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl:

Every man will be as free and undisturbed in his faith or his disbelief as he is in his nationality. And if it should occur that men of other creeds and different nationalities come to live amongst us, we should accord them honorable protection and equality before the law

We ourselves will use and carry on every new attempt in our Jewish land . . . for the good of humanity, so we shall proceed in everything else in the same humane spirit, making of the new land a land of experiments and a model State


(Theodor Herzl, in his book "The State of the Jews," 1896)




On the other hand, you have the Arab-Muslim worldview, that was expressed in the preceding 1300 years of Islamic Imperialism:

Fight those [among Jews and Christians] who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

(Quran 9:29)

It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

(Hadith, Sahih Muslim 1:33)


So on the one hand you have Zionists who wanted freedom and equality for Jews are Arabs, and creating a state for the good of humanity.

On the other hand you have the vestiges of 1300 years of Islamic Imperialism, who wanted Jews to be subjugated to Muslims, and conquest for the sake of Islam.

Unfortunately, most Palestinians chose to ally with their Arab "brothers," who did absolutely nothing to help them, but instead exploited them for their own political profit.

Unfortunately, Hamas is just the latest iteration of the same Islamic worldview.

Palestinians need to realize what is in their own best interests, and work with the Israelis toward creating two states that could live in peace with each other, and establish strong economic bonds so Israelis and Palestinians can prosper.

The rest of the Middle East needs to get rid of their 7th century mentality, and join in the effort to promote freedom and equality (not that that's likely to happen any time soon).

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 
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Enoughie

Active Member
WRONG ONCE AGAIN.
My post does not show hate for the Jews, but love for justice and peace.

Yes. Islamic Imperialism = love for justice and peace. Gotcha!

If you lived in Europe in the 1930s your solution to German aggression would have been to give Hitler the Sudetenland. Problem solved.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 
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free spirit

Well-Known Member
Yes. Islamic Imperialism = love for justice and peace. Gotcha!

If you lived in Europe in the 1930s your solution to German aggression would have been to give Hitler the Sudetenland. Problem solved.

You forget that in the present age the intruders are the Israelits, let me say this to you.

The Romans found the Jews to be a pain in the neck, so they spread them all over the continent, gues what... for the last 2000 years other nations also found them to be a pain in the neck.
Now the UN has a resolution which state that Israel should go back to the 1948 borders, Israel is not doing that on the contrary it is expanding.
So if Israel was formed by the UN, the UN can olso declare Israel an inlegal state.

The world is showing signs that Israel is becoming a pain in the neck, and if the world decide to turn agaist Israel it will make Hitler look like an amateur.
So for the best interests of Israel and its people around the world they should make a just peace with the Palestinians.
Two solutions are on hand, two states and the right of return for the palestinians both implemented within a guaranteed time fraim.
Time is agains Israel, Israel must have peace to survive
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
You forget that in the present age the intruders are the Israelits, let me say this to you.

The Romans found the Jews to be a pain in the neck, so they spread them all over the continent, gues what... for the last 2000 years other nations also found them to be a pain in the neck.
Here you reveal your profound anti-semitism.
Now the UN has a resolution which state that Israel should go back to the 1948 borders, Israel is not doing that on the contrary it is expanding.
So if Israel was formed by the UN, the UN can olso declare Israel an inlegal state.
Let us know if that ever happens.

The world is showing signs that Israel is becoming a pain in the neck, and if the world decide to turn agaist Israel it will make Hitler look like an amateur.
So for the best interests of Israel and its people around the world they should make a just peace with the Palestinians.
Two solutions are on hand, two states and the right of return for the palestinians both implemented within a guaranteed time fraim.
Time is agains Israel, Israel must have peace to survive
You're threatening us? Pretty hard to scare people who've endured what we've endured, free spirit.

Again, you realize that we had two states, and it was the Palestinians who rejected it, NOT Israel? But you want Israel to change, not the Palestinians?
 

Numinous

Philosopher
This is a lie. A disgusting, bigoted, slander that has led to the death of millions.

Or are you going to present evidence of all these "corrupt lenders" who "prey" on anyone except Jews.

How about I name a couple current ones, Paul Wolfowitz and Ben Bernanke? Can any two people be more corrupt? Don't say there is no leaning towards the state of Israel.
 

Bismillah

Submit
This is why these threads suck, I can't keep track of what people are saying.

Also has anyone pointed out the parallels between Hamas and the Zionists yet, or are they only terrorist when they're Arab?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
The world is showing signs that Israel is becoming a pain in the neck, and if the world decide to turn agaist Israel it will make Hitler look like an amateur.
So for the best interests of Israel and its people around the world they should make a just peace with the Palestinians.
Two solutions are on hand, two states and the right of return for the palestinians both implemented within a guaranteed time fraim.
Time is agains Israel, Israel must have peace to survive

How does Israel make peace with a group of people who want them dead, have started numerous wars against them and fire rockets into civilian targets on an almost daily basis?

By your reasoning should we give Australia back to the aboriginies? There isn't much difference? Fact is Palestine shot itself in the foot by going to war, that made Israel into a bulldog who will defend its home. The more Palestine attacks Israel and its civilians with car bombs and the such, the less sympathy the world has for Palestine.
 

Bismillah

Submit
How does Israel make peace with a group of people who want them dead, have started numerous wars against them and fire rockets into civilian targets on an almost daily basis?

Step one

Leave Illegal Settlements

Step two

Stop the ethnic cleansing in East Jerusalem

Step three

Agree on a settlement freeze with Abbass
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
This is a lie. A disgusting, bigoted, slander that has led to the death of millions.

Or are you going to present evidence of all these "corrupt lenders" who "prey" on anyone except Jews.

No that wasn't right Mr. Mredoff or whatever is name, was took down Jews as well. He did things big, 60 billions can you immagin, He got away with it for so long because he was a Jew, Jews for some people cannot do wrong you know.
 

croak

Trickster
You said this in justifying why Israel is so much bigger than the rest of the Arab world.

Doesn't Israel have a peace treaty with Jordan as well? Also, Cyprus likely has no issues with Israel, most of Saudi Arabia is unoccupied desert (correct me if I'm wrong), Iraq kind of needs to focus on itself for the time being, Lebanon knows that going to war would be a very bad idea (for the most part), Yemen... isn't much of a player... and with just those you've shrunken the Arab "big guy" by quite a bit. Iran's probably the only viable threat.

Take in to account the weaponry Israel has at its disposal, the fact that it doesn't share a border with Iran, the fact that more countries support Israel than Iran... no, I think it is safe to conclude that Israel is the "big guy" here.

You conveniently left out Iran, Kuwait, U.A.E, Syria, and the rest of the Arab League.
True Lebanon is not a big player, but Hezbullah is.
I remarked 'and with just those you've shrunken the Arab "big guy" by quite a bit'. By "just those" I am stating that, while I have not mentioned all the countries, I have cut down the size of the Arab "big guy"... if that makes sense.

As for Lebanon, I conveniently added "(for the most part)". Hizbullah's clearly not included in that part. Also, I never said Lebanon wasn't a player. Of course it is.

I stand by my conclusion that Israel is the "big guy" in this situation.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
You forget that in the present age the intruders are the Israelits, let me say this to you.

The Romans found the Jews to be a pain in the neck, so they spread them all over the continent, gues what... for the last 2000 years other nations also found them to be a pain in the neck.
Now the UN has a resolution which state that Israel should go back to the 1948 borders, Israel is not doing that on the contrary it is expanding.
So if Israel was formed by the UN, the UN can olso declare Israel an inlegal state.

And you really expect that,you really want to ignore everything even the Hamas Charter that shows quite clearly that Palestine do not want peace.

The world is showing signs that Israel is becoming a pain in the neck, and if the world decide to turn agaist Israel it will make Hitler look like an amateur.
So for the best interests of Israel and its people around the world they should make a just peace with the Palestinians.
Two solutions are on hand, two states and the right of return for the palestinians both implemented within a guaranteed time fraim.
Time is agains Israel, Israel must have peace to survive

Israel must,the world will do what? make Hitler look like an amatuer :facepalm: hang on one more :facepalm: is this really the best you can do
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
By and by the best way to achieve peace would be to reduce America's unconditional support for Israel.

Here's where is disagree. Why hate Israel for America's support? What does America's support do other than help Israel defend itself? America supports Australia, we have a warship of theirs in Sydney every few months, does that mean Muslims hate us as well?

If America didn't support Israel wouldn't the Arab states walk all over them? Isn't military prowess something the Arab states dislike about Israel? But take the USA away and the Arab states would have done the same thing and take the land.

Essentially do you hate Israel because its the USA making it strong, thus, Arab states can't band together and slaughter them taking back what they think is their land.

I can't see why the USA would influence anything. Please help me out here as i'm not sure where you're comming from or whether i understand.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Here's where is disagree. Why hate Israel for America's support? What does America's support do other than help Israel defend itself? America supports Australia, we have a warship of theirs in Sydney every few months, does that mean Muslims hate us as well?
Next time someone illegally uses cluster bombs over Australia or you find the remnants of a Hellfire missile in your home that is meant for anti armor capabilities you'll understand. It's the fact that weapons produced in America are used to kill Palestinian civilians that generates hatred, not their mere presence.

If America didn't support Israel wouldn't the Arab states walk all over them? Isn't military prowess something the Arab states dislike about Israel? But take the USA away and the Arab states would have done the same thing and take the land.
One the Arab states are dependent on Western contracts for their military. The Saudi Navy is French made and the majority of their contracts are by the U.S military.

Two Israel has been given some of the world's most high tech weaponry and as we saw in the Gulf War, numbers do not matter when the enemy has the logistics and technology to thoroughly dismantle you from afar

Three Israel has its own high tech weaponry and exports it to other nations.

Four American isolationism would not only mean less support for Israel, but less support for every Arab monarchy in the land.

Essentially do you hate Israel because its the USA making it strong, thus, Arab states can't band together and slaughter them taking back what they think is their land.
People hate Israel because for every one Hamas that is killed three unmentioned Palestinains are accompanied by it. People hate Israel because when someone fires a Kalishankov at a settlement, the innocent family in the house that the soldier fired next to finds its house dismantled and often enough are maimed themselves. People don't hate Israel because of the infantile concept that Bush and his cronies put out after 9/11 "they hate freedom and democracy". The footsoldiers of these insurgent movements are borne after they are persecuted and killed.
 
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Enoughie

Active Member
I think RF should make a special smiley/icon for Anti-Semite. It could be very useful in a thread like this.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
They hate Israel because they have been raised with hate,they hate Israel because they believe it to be an Islamic Waqf and because it says so in their elected Party Hamas Charter,they hate America because it is the great Shaitan because ,as everybody knows America is part of the great Zionist conspiracy
 
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