How are these Great Beings explained?

[arthra]

Again, this completely misses my point. I am fully aware that Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha and Baha'is today do not, intentionally or otherwise, 'glorify' genocide and war. Neither do the Mahabharata, the Torah or the Qur'an if they are read honestly ans sensibly. But the inescapable fact remains that the reason that the teachings of Krishna, Moses and Muhammad etc. became the established religions of nations, cultures and empires was not the veracity or content of the teachings, but the acts of war and conquest that established the Kingdoms and Caliphates that adopted these teachings as state religions. As I have stated very early in this thread, to suggest otherwise is to deny both the history and the scriptural tradition on which any possible knowledge of the cultures and their associated "Manifestations" is based. Of course tribal warfare was commonplace in the bronze age - everyone knows that. And it was tribal warfare and not specific and ethnically prejudiced divine revelation that determined which cultures (and therefore which religious traditions) ascended to "greatness" and which died out with barely a fragmentary and skeletal remnant to be picked over by subsequent "Great Beings" like "Christ", Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

In any case, my reason for quoting the passage I did was to establish that Muhammad, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha all confirmed that they accepted the historical veracity of the existence of Moses and the accounts of his life as recorded in the Torah. Since this includes at least some of the confirmatory evidence that both Israel (nationally) and Judaism (religiously) were established by warfare - according to Baha'i tradition.

Siti.. there is a concept I would like to share here... and that is called "progressive revelation".

Progressive Revelation

You know early cultures evolved as I'm sure you are no doubt aware from a more tribal state.. later to a kind of city-state... later a nation ... and still later to a world federation or representative parliament which we could be approaching... Tribal warfare was very much a part of the environs when the children of Israel were moving toward the Promised Land. With a tribal identity came a kind of social and cultural discipline to preserve the identity. City states came along and much of the ancient world became organized around established cities... there were wars of course and a kind of oligarchy and rule by classes and sometimes castes. Moving along to larger social political units such as nations... citizenship and duties went along with that.. but you'll note nations included various cities.

Today we have bodies such as the United Nations and the International Court of Arbitration and so on. There are bodies such as the Parliament of World religions where reps from various religions discuss and review issues facing humanity. So we Baha'is do not overlook the developments of history or the great contributions made to civilization by past dispensations.

Finally warfare in my view does not in fact help "establish" religion... while you may suppose Islam was spread by the sword there is strong evidence that preaching spread the faith..

The Preaching of Islam

while Christianity urged the sword to save the Holy Land it also sent missionaries ... The Umayyad Caliphs were sometimes satisfied with Christians paying for their Dhimmi status and not becoming Muslims. Jihad as a defence of religion is "stricken" from the Book according to Baha'u'llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

For those interested in the Bible, I came across this statement from Abdul-Bahá'í.

Question: How shall we determine the truth or error of certain biblical interpretation, as, for instance, the higher criticism and other present-day Christian teachings?

'Abdu'l-Bahá: Your question is an abstruse and important one. Complete answer to it would require a long time. I will reply to it briefly. The only true Explainer of the Book of God is the Holy Spirit, for no two minds are alike, no two can comprehend alike, no two can speak alike. That is to say, from the mere human standpoint of interpretation there could be neither truth nor agreement.

That is, only the Manifestations of God and their appointed Interpreters if relevant can give authoritative and perfectly accurate interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The more I dig into this stuff about Mahdi, the goofier it becomes. http://www.economist.com/news/middl...k-too-many-people-are-claiming-be-mahdi-youre

So in Iran alone there are 3000 'fake Mahdis' imprisoned. They might all be potential 'manifestations'. Wow, thanks @adrian for pointing me in this direction.

The Iranian government looks at Bahai Faith as a competing religion, and they try very hard to discredit Bahai Faith. By showing that, many crazy people also claimed to be Mahdi, they want to give this idea, that simply anyone can claim, and the Bab is just one of them, thus making the matter unworthy to investigate. I am of persian background, and I am aware of their plots!

 

[danieldemol]

Please quote one verse from Quran that supports one's standpoint, the most, for a meaningful discussion.
Regards

From the website you were referred to;
'"What! Are they sure that the overwhelming chastisement of God shall not come upon them, or that that Hour shall not come upon them, suddenly, while they are unaware?" (Yusuf-12:107)

"Warn them of the day of sighing, when the decree shall be accomplished, while they are sunk In heedlessness, and while they believe not." (Maryam-19:39)

"But on the day of Resurrection some of you shall deny the others, and some of you shall curse the others." (Ankabut-29:25)

Let us now ask ourselves this question: If the overwhelming description of the changes in the physical world to take place on the Day of Judgment is to be interpreted literally, would it be reasonable to expect that the unbelievers would still be "unaware" of it, would not know its occurrence, and particularly. after the "decree would be accomplished" for them to be still sunk in "heedlessness" and not to believe, and above all for men to "deny" and "curse" one another? Wouldn't the physical signs and portents be so drastic that there could be no room for unbelief, heedlessness and cursing to continue?'

The second Quran quote stands out to me as perhaps the strongest proof that it is possible for judgement day to have come upon us and for us to be unaware of it. Anyway it would be naturally unscientific for the sky to turn to molten brass since the sky or air - oxygen, carbon dioxide etc - does not chemically react to form brass which is a mix of copper and zinc.

Kind regards

 

[Vinayaka]

See, i believe you come from a presupposition position and that is why you do not see it the way I see it.
You already believe and are certain, that Islam is a false religion, and thus, the prophecies of Mahdi, which in your view come from a false religion, are obviously all inventions and fake, thus, anyone who claims to be the Mahdi, is obviously false in your view, and those who believe in a Mahdi, obviously are naive, and were tricked or simply have illusions, or just pretend to believe, right?

This illustrates a poor understanding of the Hindu paradigm, at least of my personal interpretation. We don't see things in false/true, good/bad, opposites. I don't view Islam as false, but just as a differing view from mine. It works for a billion people it seems. We're far more tolerant than to think anything is inherently evil like that. We don't even have evil as a concept. Ignorance, yes. Different yes, but the two paradigms are fundamentally different in lots of ways. Yes, I think Islamists do view Hindus as evil, but that's their problem not mine.

 

[Vinayaka]

How did you become a Hindu and Saivite?

I was raised agnostic, occasionally leaning to atheism. I had a mystical vision at age 14 or so, seeing God in all things. Shiva found me about 5 years later. So I wasn't even looking. It just happened, like falling in love by some pretty girl happening along. It surprised me.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Iranian government looks at Bahai Faith as a competing religion, and they try very hard to discredit Bahai Faith. By showing that, many crazy people also claimed to be Mahdi, they want to give this idea, that simply anyone can claim, and the Bab is just one of them, thus making the matter unworthy to investigate. I am of persian background, and I am aware of their plots!

Yes indeed, or so I hear. There are dozens of 'delusions of grandeur' people in insane asylums in the west as well. The ones that are harmful to others are under heavy medication. More common than many of us are aware of.

I don't assume that all are crazy though, just remain open to possibilities. The people at Jamestown, Guyana would have been well advised to be more aware. I'm sure some are very well intended, and have many wonderful ahimsa followers. We have the same mix of 'Godmen' in Hinduism too.

There have been and still are some on RF too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I was raised agnostic, occasionally leaning to atheism. I had a mystical vision at age 14 or so, seeing God in all things. Shiva found me about 5 years later. So I wasn't even looking. It just happened, like falling in love by some pretty girl happening along. It surprised me.

Its interesting considering the ways people change their faith. In a sense my first love with was Christianity but then when I examined more closely what Christians actually believed in, it just didn't make sense.

The prophecies in the Old Testament and New Testament are very much circumstantial evidence and its easy to get the wrong idea. The most important proofs are the example of the prophets themselves and their teachings. Their teachings need to make a positive difference in our lives.

It sounds like your faith works for you and you are happy with it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hi,

In Bahai view, Islamic sources prophesied about Two Manifestations to appear, one followed by another. According to Islamic sources, These Two are known as the Mahdi (or Qaim) and return of Christ (or Imam Hussein). The first one (the Mahdi) to stay and rule during 7 years, and after Him, the second Manifestation (Christ) rises and to remain on earth for 40 years.
Bahais believe the Bab and Bahaullah fulfilled these prophecies.

Amazing. They perfectly fulfilled the prophecies in the Quran. So now how do the two manifestations fulfill prophecies in the rest of the religions? Is there Big Kulki and mini Kulki? Two Buddha's? Two Zoroasters? And if Abraham is a manifestation then two of him too being predicted?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Because Jesus allegedly brought a couple of people back to life, I still believe that's what true Christians believe... that Jesus came back to life. Scientific? Not a chance. Possible for God? Sure, the Christian God can do anything.

I'm good with that.

Rising into the sky? A different dimension would work for me as an explanation.

I'm good with a different dimension too, and think that is where Jesus went. That means interpreting scripture in a manner other than literally. So we open that door for the resurrection, where does it end?

I'm talking about primitive tribal religions. Did God send them a manifestation or did they make up their own religion? But when God speaks to Abraham and tells him to sacrifice his son? And he obeys? That's primitive. Thank God for the goat stuck in the bushes or the poor kid would have been a goner.

Perhaps God can manifest Himself through us all to some extent. Its a question of degrees.

The story about Abraham clearly prefigures the story of Christ on the cross. I don't think we need to get caught up in believing this story definitely happened literally. Do you?

Yes, all have strayed, but they've also stayed. They still exist. Why? Why haven't they listened to the various manifestations in the world around them? It is not just about needing an update of social laws. It's about being faithful to what they believe God told them to do. God didn't say change your religion. And, what's funny is they don't do much to spread their religion. Why, if they had the truth, didn't they go send missionaries throughout the world?

Jesus did ask His disciples to teach to gospel to every nation. Christianity appears in desperate need of reform and too far gone to simply have a reform movement from within. That is why He Promised He would Return. However the Baha'i Faith builds on the teaching work done by other faiths in spreading their religion.

But besides them, all people had laws. All people had laws from their gods. So why were some gods real and some gods make believe?

And among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is that religion must be in conformity with science and reason, so that it may influence the hearts of men. The foundation must be solid and must not consist of imitations.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 296-307

 

[CG Didymus]

None of the long established religions accept Bahais as their own, or the Bahai interpretations as accurate. It's a new faith, but basically did come out of Islam, or is the most like Islam.

Sorry, I gotta ask again, did the Baha'is ever explain how their view that reincarnation is not from God, yet they say Hindu beliefs came from God? That is, except those views that aren't from God? So when did this teaching of reincarnation creep into Hinduism? But then it wiggled its way into Jainism and Buddhism too?

I wonder what the Baha'is believed happened? In all these religions, someone rewrote the "true" teachings and added in reincarnation? Or, was reincarnation there as a core believe right from the beginning?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Amazing. They perfectly fulfilled the prophecies in the Quran. So now how do the two manifestations fulfill prophecies in the rest of the religions? Is there Big Kulki and mini Kulki? Two Buddha's? Two Zoroasters? And if Abraham is a manifestation then two of him too being predicted?

Most major religions expect Two Manifestations.

In Bahai view, the Bab fulfilled these Figures:

the “Qá’im” (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí‘ahs, the “Mihdí” (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnís, the “Return of John the Baptist” expected by the Christians, the “Úshídar-Máh” referred to in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the “Return of Elijah” anticipated by the Jews

And Bahaullah fulfilled these Figures:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”; the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” to Shí‘ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

God passes by, p.52

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What might be something interesting to think, is, why every Founder of the Major Religions, prophesied that someone will come after Them!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, Catholics claim that the protestants broke off from them (being protestesters and all) because they didn't like how the true Church was handling things. Protestants, on the other hand, say "we have the real truth" we just don't need authority to tell us that we have it.

They are both problems. Just I find Catholics over here more nice about it. Protestants direct and indirect still want to protest against the Church as if they are hidden in their back yard with pitchforks ready to bring on the next inquisition.

I agree that the Protestants are not as relaxed about theological differences as Catholics are. I've never had an argument about religion with a Catholic but many with protestants. This is important because it is probably harder to be theologically different in the Protestant faiths than Catholics. I'm sure the Protestants will disagree with that!

Not everyone is comfortable with denominational worship. Funny thing is when JW get roughed up about Catholics but then I go to the Hall and see the same organizational-structure that all religions have. When you have a Mass of people of course you're going to have structure. Some is communions others are democratic. But it's hard to be one humanity if you don't have some conformity in the relationship. Right?

If we are part of a faith community we need to have some fundamentals that we agree on. So the question then becomes what are those fundamentals and how do we know?

Mine is opposite. I love the Church. Love all her teachings, practices, symbolism, literalisms, and all the nine yards. I never saw it as an organization. Never dawned on me to think bad about how people worship compared to others. It was just a natural thing to worship together. No, not everyone is going to think 100 percent alike. However, coming from where I live and Parishes I been to, they weren't concerned with whether you think jesus had five toes or six. They knew everyone has different ways they understanding of the Eucharist. I mean, other Catholic Churches dont even go to describe the Eucharist (similar to jews don't describe the word god).

Your passion for the Catholic Church is really very strong. I was reading some of your posts to another Catholic on another thread today and was struck by how you had wanted to be a priest at some stage. I could really see you in that role.

I left because of Christian teachings not Catholic teachings. I believe they are one and the same. I don't believe in a deit(s), don't believe jesus is god, and don't hold the bible as an authority.

I understand not believing Jesus is God as it doesn't make any sense. What's the problem with the Bible?

People who have been there for years tell me they finally were able to read their bibles. I come from a family where it's a sin if you don't read your bible.

Yeah, really huge part of Christian tradition, reading the bible.

So it wasn't doctrinal issues. Just plan religious ones.

Makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Amazing. They perfectly fulfilled the prophecies in the Quran. So now how do the two manifestations fulfill prophecies in the rest of the religions? Is there Big Kulki and mini Kulki? Two Buddha's? Two Zoroasters? And if Abraham is a manifestation then two of him too being predicted?

CG I've read where the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Bahá have all been prophesied in Buddhist scriptures, Baha'u'llah by name as AmitABHA Buddha, then the 'Two Anointed Ones in the Bible, also there's a reference to Abdul-Bahá'í somewhere I think as the Branch, with Judaism, Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David, with Hinduism the Two Aswins. There are many allusions in many Holy Books that have given plenty of signs for humanity to recognise this Revelation as well as thousands of years to meditate and reflect on it.

And there's also the 'Two trumpet blasts' in the Quran 'that are as a single blast' signifying two revelations from God but considered as one Faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we are part of a faith community we need to have some fundamentals that we agree on. So the question then becomes what are those fundamentals and how do we know?

In the Church and even JW has this is baptism and communion. Repentance, communion, and confirming one's faith (I know I'm missing a few) is in scripture and part of the christian faith. I just feel people are overlooking the foundations all Churches have in common and trying to extract them as if traditions somehow invalidate baptism in one church compared to another.

Your passion for the Catholic Church is really very strong. I was reading some of your posts to another Catholic on another thread today and was struck by how you had wanted to be a priest at some stage. I could really see you in that role.

Eh. Thank you. At the time I was all for it. Then I thought, "can I really handle hearing confessions." Even if I were male, I'd still have to get a bachelor's degree to be a priest among other requirements. I'd probably have to start young.

I understand not believing Jesus is God as it doesn't make any sense. What's the problem with the Bible?

I never learned anything from it that helps me in my spiritual life. The gospels are beautiful but as a whole, the bible is about physical sacrifice. That in itself never sat right with me. Of course, you have the deaths in the bible and all of that. I don't care too much about contradictions in the big things like having an ultimatum to salvation. But it just doesn't sit right with me inside. I could not base my life on the Bible.

Yeah, really huge part of Christian tradition, reading the bible.

Well, Christianity was based on oral tradition. Jesus saw the Jews looking at the Bible and practicing traditions over god. They felt if they read the bible, they would find the messiah. Jesus taught against that. He taught the body of christ, helping others, and worshiping the creator. The only reason the bible is important in my view is technically, if you want to know your faith, you got to read about it. I wouldn't put it on a pedestal though.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In the Church and even JW has this is baptism and communion. Repentance, communion, and confirming one's faith (I know I'm missing a few) is in scripture and part of the christian faith. I just feel people are overlooking the foundations all Churches have in common and trying to extract them as if traditions somehow invalidate baptism in one church compared to another.

I suppose these are all the traditions of the Church as you say. Of course reading the bible is a tradition too as well as the sermons and teaching.

Eh. Thank you. At the time I was all for it. Then I thought, "can I really handle hearing confessions." Even if I were male, I'd still have to get a bachelor's degree to be a priest among other requirements. I'd probably have to start young.

Maybe you go on to become a counsellor or psychotherapist instead. Often, but not always, the best people in those roles are those who have been through troubled times and come through.

I never learned anything from it that helps me in my spiritual life. The gospels are beautiful but as a whole, the bible is about physical sacrifice. That in itself never sat right with me. Of course, you have the deaths in the bible and all of that. I don't care too much about contradictions in the big things like having an ultimatum to salvation. But it just doesn't sit right with me inside. I could not base my life on the Bible.

I have to admit that I had the same struggle. It wasn't until I became a Baha'i that I could accept the bible in its entirety. Before that it troubled my soul.

Well, Christianity was based on oral tradition. Jesus saw the Jews looking at the Bible and practicing traditions over god. They felt if they read the bible, they would find the messiah. Jesus taught against that. He taught the body of christ, helping others, and worshiping the creator. The only reason the bible is important in my view is technically, if you want to know your faith, you got to read about it. I wouldn't put it on a pedestal though.

I have been reading some liberal bible scholars recently who highlight all the uncertainties we have about some parts of the bible, how the life and teachings of Jesus were passed on by word of mouth originally, and it was not until at least 20 years after Jesus was crucified that the first gospel was written. It has become clear that the authors of Matthew, Mark, and Luke were not eyewitness to the life of Jesus and there is weak evidence only that John Zebedee wrote the book of John. Perhaps at some stage in the future you will feel comfortable with the bible in its completeness.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry, I gotta ask again, did the Baha'is ever explain how their view that reincarnation is not from God, yet they say Hindu beliefs came from God? That is, except those views that aren't from God? So when did this teaching of reincarnation creep into Hinduism? But then it wiggled its way into Jainism and Buddhism too?

I wonder what the Baha'is believed happened? In all these religions, someone rewrote the "true" teachings and added in reincarnation? Or, was reincarnation there as a core believe right from the beginning?

As you and I know, Bahai beliefs are just selective. Baha'u'llah himself said very little about Hinduism.

As with the rest of the beliefs of Hinduism, nobody really knows when any of them entered the picture. Certainly reincarnation has been there for a very long time.

 

[Vinayaka]

Its interesting considering the ways people change their faith. I

I don't view my situation as changing, but just discovering what I already believed. In the 'becoming a Hindu' process my sampradaya advocates, we distinguish between conversion, and adoption. I'm an adoptive. So it's the difference between remodeling and old house versus building a new house. The renovated one will always retain some remnants of the old.

 

[Vinayaka]

What might be something interesting to think, is, why every Founder of the Major Religions, prophesied that someone will come after Them!

Lots of religions don't do that as well. In Hinduism, only one sect does that. Many of the others have a continuous line, called parampara, so there is a living successor each time, appointed by the previous one. In this way, there is always a living preceptor. Some paramparas have lasted 2000 years or more It certainly eliminates the fighting about 'I'm the next one'.