How are these Great Beings explained?

[danieldemol]

Please quote from Quran, the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Quran/Muhammad is support of one's point of view.
Regards

According to the explanation given in page 8 and 9 of Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an in the Arabic orginal of surah 55:1-4 the word "bayan' is in the Quran, and if it were correctly translated, would appear in the translation as Bayan - the name of the Bab's holy book.
Kind regards

 

[CG Didymus]

You do understand that from an outsider's POV, Bahai seems very much like a very liberal version of Islam. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but that's how I see it...

What would be the difference if it called itself a sect of Islam or a new religion that progressed out of Islam? If you asked me: "What religion does it have the most in common?" I'd say, "Islam."

What religions does it have very little in common? I'd say, "Hinduism and Buddhism." Even all the main Christian denominations are a million miles from what the Baha'i Faith teaches. The only way they reconcile this is to say there has been distortions and misinterpretation. My question to them has always been, then have all these religions been wrong right from the start?

But you know their answer... "Nay, far be it, how hath the noble and great teachings of all these celestial lights of guidance hath not led humanity to the most effulgent glory. Nay, and I say nay again. We believe fully, totally and completely in ever utterance that hath wafted from their lips."

Then we ask about the core teachings of these religions and they say: "No, Baha'u'llah says that's not truth. We only go by what Baha'u'llah has said those religions believe."

What? So you don't believe in what those religions teach?"

"Far be it, nay...."

No, no, stop. I give up. I retract my question.

 

[Vinayaka]

Religions can be said to have Two Major teachings.

The first part, is those Religious Laws, such as Fasting, diet, Rites, Marriage Law, punishment and Religious Ceremonies. Another major teachings, are spiritual teachings.
In this Sense, Islam and Jewish Faith are very similar, as both emphasize a lot on Religious Laws, called Sharia. On the other hand Christianity emphasizes less on these Acts or Works, and more on spirituality. In this sense Bahai Faith is more similar to Christianity! And Bahaullah also has said, this faith is more similar to Christianity. But because Bahais accept, Islam's divine origin, and see their Faith as fulfilment of Prophesies of Mahdi, and often refer to these Prophesies to teach the Faith, from those outside, it would probably look like Islam. But, if you ever decide to go to some Bahai gatherings, for curiosity or socializing, you would see how it is.

I personally always just trust what practitioners tell me. So if Bahais say they're different than Islam, then that is good enough for me. I was just going off of debates and readings about it on-line. Sorry if that confused you, as I wasn't speaking personally, just as an outsider. It seems to be an oft asked question, given the history and geography.

I do wish that some Bahais would respect my view a bit more when, in the same theme, I state that Hinduism is vastly different than Bahai or any other Abrahamic faith. But I keep getting told we're all the same.

 

[Vinayaka]

What would be the difference if it called itself a sect of Islam or a new religion that progressed out of Islam? If you asked me: "What religion does it have the most in common?" I'd say, "Islam."

Little wonder great pains are taken to distance themselves from Islam though.

 

[CG Didymus]

God wants us to prosper and flourish as individuals and as a human civilisation. Now He didn't want to create a race of robots who would obey His every command as He wants us to love Him from our hearts.

So He gave us free will and choice so our love would be genuine and real. In giving us free will, God knew we would not have His Wisdom to always make decisions which lead to our happiness and well being. So He sent Educators with stories, parables and laws and teachings to help encourage us do what is best for ourselves.

So God didn't want robots? Yet, he gave laws and said "do them or else." What kind of choice is that?

God knew we would not have His Wisdom? Well, duh. So he created a race of idiots?

So, with your kids. How much freewill do you give them when they were little? Did you want them to obey you? Like a good, obedient child (robot). Or, you try and educate them and send them to school to learn what is true and good... but, you don't twist their arm or anything, you let them decide what to do and what to believe? Knowing there's all sorts of "evil" lurking all around them.

God knew and I guess, since he created all, created the evil? And then wonders why we choose all the "fun" things in life that he hates. And, how some choose to lie, cheat and steal their way through life?

I don't know a nice peaceful robotic life might have been a better way.

 

[CG Didymus]

I've already highlighted to you that the first 300 years of Christianity saw great success in the spread of the Christian faith without violence...

Not that I've researched it thoroughly, I was under the impression that Christians were killed and tortured until Constantine, during a battle, saw a vision of a cross or something in the sky. He won the battle and made Christianity the State religion. Then, he got the bishops together to hash out what they really believe. Is that kind of what you think happened?

 

[CG Didymus]

Siti.. there is a concept I would like to share here... and that is called "progressive revelation".

Progressive Revelation

You know early cultures evolved as I'm sure you are no doubt aware from a more tribal state.. later to a kind of city-state... later a nation ... and still later to a world federation or representative parliament which we could be approaching... Tribal warfare was very much a part of the environs when the children of Israel were moving toward the Promised Land. With a tribal identity came a kind of social and cultural discipline to preserve the identity. City states came along and much of the ancient world became organized around established cities... there were wars of course and a kind of oligarchy and rule by classes and sometimes castes. Moving along to larger social political units such as nations... citizenship and duties went along with that.. but you'll note nations included various cities.

I don't get this tribal, city state, nation progression. When hasn't there been all three at the same time? Hasn't there always been great empires right from the start of recorded history? And another pertinent question... What about the religions of those empires? We know enough about to them to know that all or most of them were polytheistic. So who were the "manifestations" that taught them that?

 

[CG Didymus]

For those interested in the Bible, I came across this statement from Abdul-Bahá'í.

Question: How shall we determine the truth or error of certain biblical interpretation, as, for instance, the higher criticism and other present-day Christian teachings?

'Abdu'l-Bahá: Your question is an abstruse and important one. Complete answer to it would require a long time. I will reply to it briefly. The only true Explainer of the Book of God is the Holy Spirit, for no two minds are alike, no two can comprehend alike, no two can speak alike. That is to say, from the mere human standpoint of interpretation there could be neither truth nor agreement.

That is, only the Manifestations of God and their appointed Interpreters if relevant can give authoritative and perfectly accurate interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.

So no one understood the Bible until the Baha'i Faith gave its true interpretation? So, just by reading it, you can't get its true meaning?

 

[CG Didymus]

...Jesus did ask His disciples to teach to gospel to every nation. Christianity appears in desperate need of reform and too far gone to simply have a reform movement from within. That is why He Promised He would Return. However the Baha'i Faith builds on the teaching work done by other faiths in spreading their religion.

First, what is the Baha'i definition of the "Gospel"?

Second, he's coming back for his faithful... and he's coming back soon... or sooner or later. All the end times things that Christians put together make it sound like there will be false teachers, false Christ's, etc. Then, the end will come. You know all those things they believe, the Anti-Christ will try and unite the world. Jesus will come and "rapture" his true followers. The world will go through the tribulation, and then Jesus will come destroy evil, and all we be well or something to that effect.

Of course, that's their interpretation of obviously wrong. But, they believe it and the only reform they do is to get back to the "truth" of the Bible.

 

[CG Didymus]

Most major religions expect Two Manifestations.

In Bahai view, the Bab fulfilled these Figures:

the “Qá’im” (He Who ariseth) promised to the Shí‘ahs, the “Mihdí” (One Who is guided) awaited by the Sunnís, the “Return of John the Baptist” expected by the Christians, the “Úshídar-Máh” referred to in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the “Return of Elijah” anticipated by the Jews

And Bahaullah fulfilled these Figures:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”; the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” to Shí‘ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.

God passes by, p.52

Hmmm? The Bab is a manifestation, right? So since when is Elijah and John the Baptist manifestations? So still, where are two manifestation predicted?

Besides, the Jewish prophecy is supposedly that Elijah would come before the Messiah. And Jesus said that was John the Baptist, so that prediction already happened when Jesus came the first time.

 

[CG Didymus]

As you and I know, Bahai beliefs are just selective. Baha'u'llah himself said very little about Hinduism.

As with the rest of the beliefs of Hinduism, nobody really knows when any of them entered the picture. Certainly reincarnation has been there for a very long time.

I still don't know what the big deal would be. God already made a soul or spirit, whatever it is, stuck it in a body. That person could be put in a good situation or a horrible situation. Maybe born sick and dies young. One chance at life? It don't seem all that fair.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I personally always just trust what practitioners tell me. So if Bahais say they're different than Islam, then that is good enough for me. I was just going off of debates and readings about it on-line. Sorry if that confused you, as I wasn't speaking personally, just as an outsider. It seems to be an oft asked question, given the history and geography.

I do wish that some Bahais would respect my view a bit more when, in the same theme, I state that Hinduism is vastly different than Bahai or any other Abrahamic faith. But I keep getting told we're all the same.

I don't think Bahai Scriptures teach that Hinduism is the Same as Bahai Faith. Of course in Bahai View, they are different Revelations. What Bahais believe is that, the divine origin of all major Religions are the same. Hinduism, in our view was revealed for a much older Age. The Bahais also, do not consider their own Faith as Final. There will come a Time, Bahai Faith will be too old to practice for future Ages. At that time another Manifestation appear. However Bahai Scriptures teach that All Religions, have common teachings too, as Abdulbaha said, this common part of Religion is:

"...faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, high-mindedness, trustworthiness, love of God, and charity. It is mercy to the poor, assistance to the oppressed, generosity to the needy, and upliftment of the fallen. It is purity, detachment, humility, forbearance, patience, and constancy. These are divine qualities. These commandments will never be abrogated, but will remain in force and effect for all eternity."

So, in our view, Hinduism in its Origin, contained these common concepts.
We do respect others view, and we do not force our beliefs on others.

 

[CG Didymus]

There are some beliefs like reincarnation, the Eucharist, Satan and so on that have gradually crept into people's beliefs and prevailed but were never endorsed by any Manifestation of God.

Well, Christians believe their NT and say Jesus believed that Satan was real.

So is there invisible spirit beings roaming around? Whether you call them Jin or angels, it don't matter. Do they exist in the Baha'i world? If they do exist, do they always do good, or can they turn evil?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hmmm? The Bab is a manifestation, right? So since when is Elijah and John the Baptist manifestations? So still, where are two manifestation predicted?

Besides, the Jewish prophecy is supposedly that Elijah would come before the Messiah. And Jesus said that was John the Baptist, so that prediction already happened when Jesus came the first time.

Yes. The Bab is a Manifestation, and His station is greater than Elijah, or John, with regards to His Revelation. But if someone greater comes, we can say, the reality of John is returned and more.
For example if I say, I have 100 dollars, does it mean I don't have 10 dollars? So, when we talk about Return of Elijah, we are talking about return of the same Spiritual Qualities in a Person. We believe these Spiritual Qualities did appear in the Bab, plus more.
Jesus said, Elijah did come, and will come again. It is in the Bible.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah did mention He wasn't happy that Hinduism wasn't a missionary religion like Christianity and I can understand His displeasure in the light of today's violence.

Had Hindus taught their Faith of non violence fervently in every school worldwide we might have a world vastly different to now and filled with ahimsa instead of violence.

What has instead happened is large parts of the world have been deprived of ahimsa. Now we have to do the job others won't do.

That's what unity is all about. I had to painstakingly extract information from you about Hinduism and the more I know the more I wish you wouldn't all be as silent as you are as humanity needs ahimsa urgently.

How about Judaism? Why don't they send missionaries out? But with Christianity, what was the message they were spreading? Did they teach acceptance of the people's previous religion, or did they teach them that their old beliefs were false and had to be stopped?

Other religions didn't teach non-violence? You know like the Golden Rule, turn your other cheek, you know that stuff?

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't think Bahai Scriptures teach that Hinduism is the Same as Bahai Faith. Of course in Bahai View, they are different Revelations. What Bahais believe is that, the divine origin of all major Religions are the same.

And yet you won't see the irony in all this. Either they're different or they're the same, but you seem to be able to combine the two. I don't believe the truths are the same. The 'truth' of reincarnation is a glaring example.

I also don't believe Bahais do respect others, else you wouldn't keep debating against it, and just let it be.

But I'm just not willing to go through all this debate again. I've spent several hours trying to illustrate this to loverofhumanity, without much success. It's like you guys called in back up for the debate, lol. So if you want to see my views, I guess all I can suggest is to read the entire thread. I'm just not willing to spend so much time reiterating and going in circles. Sorry about that.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes. The Bab is a Manifestation, and His station is greater than Elijah, or John, with regards to His Revelation. But if someone greater comes, we can say, the reality of John is returned and more.
For example if I say, I have 100 dollars, does it mean I don't have 10 dollars? So, when we talk about Return of Elijah, we are talking about return of the same Spiritual Qualities in a Person. We believe these Spiritual Qualities did appear in the Bab, plus more.
Jesus said, Elijah did come, and will come again. It is in the Bible.

Elijah is not a manifestation. You need a prophecy of two Christs coming.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe infallibility is important, otherwise, how can I trust someone that He tells me the Truth from a supernatural source? A God who wants to communicate with Mankind, must create an infallible Person, to make sure He would transmit His message to Mankind without error.

Yes, Abdulbaha appointed Shoghi Effendi, as the Gardian of the Faith. Bahaullah had written eventually Bahais must elect by voting, the universal House of Justice. So, after Shoghi Effendi, Bahais elected the first UHJ, and since then, every 5 years, they go through the Election process as per Bahai Scriptures.

Who transmitted Jesus' message without error? Christians believe all the NT writers were infallible. Therefore, what the NT says is the absolute truth. Now, after men decided on who got into the NT, who was the infallible interpreter of the writings found in the NT? The Pope?

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course not.
LDS is a Christian denomination, just added another sect and division in many already divisions within Christianity. Neither LDS has a new divinely revealed Book that is claimed to be better, or more suitable for our Age, than the Revelation of Christ.

What does the Baha'i Faith believe about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? Did an angel really guide him? Did he really get the book from some golden plates? Was there really a great civilization on the American continent like the Book of Mormon says?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who transmitted Jesus' message without error? Christians believe all the NT writers were infallible. Therefore, what the NT says is the absolute truth. Now, after men decided on who got into the NT, who was the infallible interpreter of the writings found in the NT? The Pope?

Some parts of the OT and NT, were left for Christ to return and unseal it. The Seven Seals in the chapter of revelation, as well as what God told in OT to some prophets, that the Book is to remain sealed until the End is indication of this.

Once the disciples left, after them, there were many good Saints who were inspired, to teach the Gospel.