How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

No. True peace can only reign when we begin caring for each other as we would our own family.

That's why I say Bahai doesn't agree with diversity. Non-prophet faiths see "one family" as putting people in one foundation. We are already one family as a humanity. Each religion has their own ways towards world peace. Saying one family is like saying my family is your family instead of saying we both have separate families and that is okay. I don't agree with saying your family is part of my family and I am a part of the person next to me family in order to make one family.

There isn't a one foundation. Value diversity without being one family. (Unless, of course, all religions interconnect. They don't.)

 

[loverofhumanity]

You're confusing me. I'm only talking about inner spiritual peace.

It is alright to be a one-dominate (or one foundation) religion. Most religions are to some degree but the perspectives of abrahamic faiths are different in that regards than does eastern faiths or just all non abrahamics in general.

Take out the war and politics. I'm not talking about that.

I know you believe both many religions do. You just don't believe them on an equal level even far enough to differentiate peace into lesser and greater when peace is just peace.

Inner peace is both political, spiritual, and all of the above. It's life.

No division in spirituality. Right?

One major problem is peace between religions. The different sects and religions have problems. The Muslims want to wipe our the Jews. Sunni Islam is currently fighting with both Shiah Islam and the Christian west in various countries in the Middle East, Iraq, Syria, Yemen etc. Buddhists and Rohinga are fighting in upper Burma with villages burnt and many killed in sectarian violence.

And there are many more I can't think of right now but religions are not at peace within themselves and between other religions so how can peace come from them if they can't have peace amongst themselves as is clear today?

So these religions may one day decide to put down their guns but what about brotherhood and love amongst them? You're lucky if you can convince them to stop killing each other let alone be as a family.

So these conflicting religions are unable to establish peace as we can clearly see.

Obviously spiritually they are not united and don't see the truth or any truth in each other's religion, which, if they did, might make them not be so full of hatred.

But as you say, we don't need unity of religion or between religion so I suppose according to that theory these wars will go on forever.

In the Baha'i Faith we don't have these problems. Buddhists and Muslims and Jews and members of all Faiths get on like a family.

But as you maintain, unity of religion is not the answer so you're stuck with your sectarian wars with no solution while we have a solution far better than these people killing each other.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

...I can speak of Christianity and Buddhism where the former do not have Bahaullah in their scriptures and the latter does not believe in god.
.

Ok, so, you say, you can speak for Christianity. As you know, many Christians, became Bahais, because they believed Bahaullah is precisely the Return of Christ, as promised in the Bible. Among them, were theologian too. It is obvious they were convinced. So, my question to you is, were they wrong about accepting Bahaullah as return of Christ, or are those Christians who reject Bahaullah are wrong? If you say, those Christians who believed Bahaullah is return of Jesus were wrong, How do you know this?

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's why I say Bahai doesn't agree with diversity. Non-prophet faiths see "one family" as putting people in one foundation. We are already one family as a humanity. Each religion has their own ways towards world peace. Saying one family is like saying my family is your family instead of saying we both have separate families and that is okay. I don't agree with saying your family is part of my family and I am a part of the person next to me family in order to make one family.

There isn't a one foundation. Value diversity without being one family. (Unless, of course, all religions interconnect. They don't.)

How can we be one family with sectarian wars and violence all over the world? Families don't kill their own members.

Each religion has their own way to peace? Yes I forgot, the Sunnis and the Shias solution is war. As is the Buddhists and Rohingas in northern Burma, Northern Ireland? That was a solution? At what cost? How many died needlessly! Iraq, Yemen, The Jews and Palestinians having a war every few years? Yeah sure that's a solution?

Your solution seems to be to leave them to themselves to rip each other apart, to rape and decimate each other,

The Baha'i solution is to encourage them to come together and meet and to reconcile their differences. While Buddhists and Muslim Rohinga were massacreing each other in upper Burma a while ago, the Baha'is called for the Buddhists and Muslims in Rangoon to come together and have prayers for peace which they did. No guns, no violence just to see the humanity in each other and to appreciate each other.

You're just going to leave these people to destroy each other! For what? What is that valuable worth protecting more than human life? Even religion is only here to serve humanity.

If religion ceases to be a cause of unity then abolish it. Let's have a religion that brings peace not war.

People matter. If we have to unite all religions to bring peace between them then that is far better than the massacres going on now. It's lives being saved we're talking about here not just some lost traditions.

The other day I heard the Taliban killed 140 fellow human beings in Afganistan? That's your solution to let them alone to destroy and kill?

No way. Peace between religions is essential in this age and unless and until they can begin to appreciate the truth in each other, wars and mass killings will continue.

It's this state of affairs we seek to address but we are so few in number.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But we didn't know these "sayings were not to be taken literally, and must be interpreted Symbolically or Mystically", until the Baha'i Faith told us so. For centuries each religion has been built on wrong assumptions. The assumptions being that they thought they had the truth. Dummies, why would they think that and not know?

So whichever religion went first, lets say Hinduism. They got it wrong. Many Gods and reincarnation. Buddha kept the reincarnation. Wrong. So should Jews have listened to those religions? No, both are wrong even though they were brought by manifestations. So Jews were better off only listening to what God told Moses.

Poor Zoroaster, not to many followers anymore. What happened? But he had some kind of dualism thing and resurrection. You tell me I don't know that much about him, but that sounds wrong. But then Jesus comes. A new truth from God. Believe on God's Son and you will be saved. You can dump the Law God told the Jews. Don't need it. The Jewish message was filled with symbolism and pointed to Jesus. If only the Jews knew... They would have accepted Jesus as their Messiah and all would be good? Right? Wrong.

They are probably better off staying with Judaism, "cause Christianity made Jesus God... Which is wrong. They have Jesus rising from the dead. Wrong. They believe Jesus is the one and only way to God. Wrong. They believe it is the same Jesus coming back. Wrong. Many believe the Creation Story and the Flood. Wrong. So what is right and true about Christianity? Nothing, nothing that's all that important. They also missed all the symbolism and made things literal when they weren't. And they missed Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah as the second, third and fourth coming of the "spiritual" Christ.

I wonder then, what religion has the truth? None, that is, if we go by the real truth as told by Baha'u'llah. So If I'm a practicing anything, I'm believing and following wrong beliefs, because the original teachings are either gone or misinterpreted. Isn't that what Baha'u'llah is really saying?

Do you know that for example in early Christianity, some Christians called Jesus, 'the Mirror of God'?
And this is what Bahaullah teaches too.
Or, did you know some early Jews, and early Christians believed the story of Creation in Genesis is symbolic, and Prophetic?
And that is what Bahai Scriptures teaches too.
Do you know, in Shia Islam, in the Recorded Traditions of Imams, there are explicit sayings that, Day of Resurrection is the Day that the Promised one comes and that by resurrecting the Dead, is meant, to change unbelievers to believers.
And that is also what Bahai Scriptures teach...

It seems not everyone had got it wrong, doesn't it?

However, religion is not only limited to these symbolic interpretations. It has many other explicit teachings, specially ethics, and good deeds. So, i am sure there were little misunderstanding regarding these teachings.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There have been so many wars within religions and between religions recently so much so that some have called for the abandonement of religion altogether.

Here is a list but very incomplete which involves all the major religions.

Religiously based civil unrest and warfare

Leaving them alone to sort it out themselves has only led to more wars and sectarian conflicts erupting endlessly.

The only real solution we believe is for them to see the truth in each religion and abandon that which is the cause of disunity and all unite as one Faith and religion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The problem is we can't assume that what Christians believe is what Christ taught. There are even more variables at play with Hinduism. Comparing what Christians and Hindus believe, therefore doesn't allow a fair comparison between what Christ and Krishna really taught.

Well scripturally, surely Jesus was the physically incarnated Son of God - not God - that's a huge difference between Christ and Krishna, not to mention a huge departure from scripture that most of mainstream Christianity has adopted and perpetuated. So scripturally there is definitely no basis for treating them as similar.

I agree with the assessment that the best designation of Jesus from a scriptural perspective is 'Son of God'. However we need to consider that God does not have a son as a human mother or a father has a son. Therefore the designation is most likely signifying Jesus's uniqueness and greatness in relation to other human beings. The most relevant point is the distortions that were either not intended and become part of the religion with the progress of time. The designation that Jesus is God incarnate is considered mainstream but there are too many contradictory aspects to scripture for this to hold true. For example Jesus does not know the hour or the day of His return, only the Father. Another is Jesus crying out on the cross to His Father.

Scientifically, there is nothing but the physical - science has nothing to say about anything spiritual, so I would say that science is irrelevant to this discussion unless you are suggesting (far more plausibly than anything else I've read in this entire thread) that both Christ and Krishna (if they existed at all) were simply men.

Science has had a marked impact on Christianity's understanding of the world. I don't need to go into the implications of Galileo or Darwinism. Science has completely ruled out creationists theories based on a literal interpretation of genesis. Many stories in the bible are now rightly seen as myth rather than literal historic events.

Historically we can't even establish that either of them - or any of the other Hindu avatars - actually existed. So history also has little, if anything to offer - other than a little bit about how these beliefs have morphed and developed over time.

The uncertainly around the known historic characters Christ and Krishna simply highlight the problem further. Were they men or Divine or somewhere in between? So relying on doctrines of belief today is at best a weak determinant of what these Great Beings really taught.

And comparative-religiously they simply don't compare - which was my point in the previous post.

What we can say in regards to similarities between Krishna and Christ?

Both are widely believed to be real historic characters closely associated with God.
Both taught how to live the spiritual life.
Both have large followings.
Both have books that may represent some of what they taught.
Both have large numbers of followers despite the passage of time.
Both taught about an afterlife or soul that continues on beyond our current physical existence.

 

[Vinayaka]

You are trying to mix core teachings of individual "revealed" faiths into one message for peace. Even if it was moral it is historically and by other religions standards, very illogical.

This is where I have some difficulty too. Any cursory reading tells you that the core teachings are so very very different, and yet somehow Bahaus seem so absolutely determined to see that they're not. I find it quite remarkable. Yet, we have intelligent coherent people here. It makes about as much sense as someone claiming the landscape of mountains is the same as a flat desert.

 

[Vinayaka]

The problem is we can't assume that what Christians believe is what Christ taught. There are even more variables at play with Hinduism. Comparing what Christians and Hindus believe, therefore doesn't allow a fair comparison between what Christ and Krishna really taught.

You don't have to though, as neither is necessarily historically accurate, and it was a long time ago. What we have to do is look at what those beliefs are today. If a new volcanic island (like Surtsey) lies in the middle of the ocean, do the ship navigators believe it isn't there because their map of 200 years ago said it wasn't. Right now is what is relevant.

Hindu-Christian Point Counterpoint - Catholic Answers Forums

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So, my question to you is, were they wrong about accepting Bahaullah as return of Christ, or are those Christians who reject Bahaullah are wrong?

A lot of bahai go to christianity. It goes both ways if not more returning or coming to christ. Christianity is a dominate faith. You said bahai is small so Id assume more people convert to christianity than the other way around.

They arent wrong for their own beliefs. They are no longer christians. They are bahai. Christians believe exclusively in jesus christ only. All christians do and No One Else.

If you say, those Christians who believed Bahaullah is return of Jesus were wrong, How do you know this?

Yes. It is wrong. For one, bahauallah isnt even jewish or roman for that matter. Second, jesus father will send jesus to return not jesus. Third, scripture does not mention bahaullah The Person. That and claiming bahaullah has something tondo with hebrew scriptures is saying bahaullah will soon be the son of god. God only has one Son (caps) and that is jesus no one else.

Unless scripture actually says it rather than interpreting something in scripture thats not there, its wrong.

People wont have communion in bahaullah. Saying that alone sounds silly.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How can we be one family with sectarian wars and violence all over the world? Families don't kill their own members.

Each religion has their own way to peace? Yes I forgot, the Sunnis and the Shias solution is war. As is the Buddhists and Rohingas in northern Burma, Northern Ireland? That was a solution? At what cost? How many died needlessly! Iraq, Yemen, The Jews and Palestinians having a war every few years? Yeah sure that's a solution?

Your solution seems to be to leave them to themselves to rip each other apart, to rape and decimate each other,

The Baha'i solution is to encourage them to come together and meet and to reconcile their differences. While Buddhists and Muslim Rohinga were massacreing each other in upper Burma a while ago, the Baha'is called for the Buddhists and Muslims in Rangoon to come together and have prayers for peace which they did. No guns, no violence just to see the humanity in each other and to appreciate each other.

You're just going to leave these people to destroy each other! For what? What is that valuable worth protecting more than human life? Even religion is only here to serve humanity.

If religion ceases to be a cause of unity then abolish it. Let's have a religion that brings peace not war.

People matter. If we have to unite all religions to bring peace between them then that is far better than the massacres going on now. It's lives being saved we're talking about here not just some lost traditions.

The other day I heard the Taliban killed 140 fellow human beings in Afganistan? That's your solution to let them alone to destroy and kill?

No way. Peace between religions is essential in this age and unless and until they can begin to appreciate the truth in each other, wars and mass killings will continue.

It's this state of affairs we seek to address but we are so few in number.

Peace happens with mutual respect, understanding differences, finding agreement, and respecting each others boundaries.

There is no bahaullah in world peace just the peace bahai envision. No different than christians want everyone to be saved to bring peace.

Unless you are saying we do need one dominate religion, no. I dont agree with one foundation for all religions. If religions want to have peace, a lot need to drop that "I am right" mindset.

Many have a political mindset. Every post on this thread about war and such is all political not spiritual.

If you want to address peace for all refer to the people themselves. Bahaullah has no place in World peace just the peace you want that

Many others do not agree with.

 

[Vinayaka]

Many others do not agree with.

I believe there are soul groups. Many of them. Like minded people attract. So somewhere there is a need for a belief like Bahai, and all those people who are operating on that strata of consciousness go there. It serves a need for a certain psychological mindset. Where we have difficulty is when that same mindset is seen by it's proponents as superiour.

See #9 in the point-counterpoint link I posted.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You don't have to though, as neither is necessarily historically accurate, and it was a long time ago. What we have to do is look at what those beliefs are today. If a new volcanic island (like Surtsey) lies in the middle of the ocean, do the ship navigators believe it isn't there because their map of 200 years ago said it wasn't. Right now is what is relevant.

Hindu-Christian Point Counterpoint - Catholic Answers Forums

It is true that the present is the most relevant. The summary between the two religions appears helpful. Lets consider the ninth and last principle for each religion:

Hinduism - Hindus believe that no religion teaches the only way to salvation above all others, but that all genuine paths are facets of God's Light, deserving tolerance and understanding.

Christianity - Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate and, therefore, the only sure path to salvation. Many religions may offer ethical and spiritual insights, but only Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

I am from a Christian background and not from a Hindu background. The problem I had many years ago before I became a Baha'i was that I strongly agreed with the Hindu position and strongly disagreed with the Christian position. It is not a problem that you have to resolve because you are a Hindu. I am a Christian, yet my Faith teaches something fundamentally contrary to which I believe. Something has to give.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A lot of bahai go to christianity. It goes both ways if not more returning or coming to christ. Christianity is a dominate faith. You said bahai is small so Id assume more people convert to christianity than the other way around.

These requires official statistical numbers. It is not like we can make an accurate conclusion, simply by reading something off internet. Anyways, even if it wad true that more people convert to Christianity than the Bahai Faith, it would not disprove Bahaullah. It could perhaps mean, more people have not been able to recognize Him. As you know, for example, there was a time, the majority believed the earth was flat, or the sun rotates around earth. That would tell us, what majority believe is not an indication of Truth.

Yes. It is wrong. For one, bahauallah isnt even jewish or roman for that matter. Second, jesus father will send jesus to return not jesus. Third, scripture does not mention bahaullah The Person. That and claiming bahaullah has something tondo with hebrew scriptures is saying bahaullah will soon be the son of god. God only has one Son (caps) and that is jesus no one else.

Unless scripture actually says it rather than interpreting something in scripture thats not there, its wrong.

People wont have communion in bahaullah. Saying that alone sounds silly.

Well, the Bible gives a number of signs to recognize when Christ returns. Those who wrote the Bible, did not say everything we wrote in Bible are to be taken literal or physical reality. In fact, there are many indications, that most prophecies are written in symbolic language, and many are spiritual realities. Bahaullah fulfilled all prophecies that were in Bible. He did not fulfil the prophecies that people had invented by their own imagination, and unrealistic expectations, but He fulfilled all that is written in the Scriptures. It is beyond the scope of this thread to go through those verses, and show that Bahaullah indeed fulfil them, but the best Book to read, in my opinion is Book of Certitude, which explains it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

These requires official statistical numbers. It is not like we can make an accurate conclusion, simply by reading something off internet. Anyways, even if it wad true that more people convert to Christianity than the Bahai Faith, it would not disprove Bahaullah.

Where are you from??????

Thousanda of people convert to christianity everyday. We just celebrated the easter vigil where new catholics all around the world are confirmed in christ. Of course I dont know there previous background but christianity is larger than bahai so I would be heavily surprized anyone would gonto bahai faith unless they were maybe indoctrinated or had no choice to follow christianity. One muslim told me those who convert in his opinion have a stronger belief than indoctrinated people like himself.

Of course its not wrong. just your statement if compaing christian conversions to bahai doesnt make sense. Christians out number bahai because many are converting to christianity.

It could perhaps mean, more people have not been able to recognize Him. As you know, for example, there was a time, the majority believed the earth was flat, or the sun rotates around earth. That would tell us, what majority believe is not an indication of Truth.

That is your belief. I would believe a christian about his own belief than bahai. Chriet returns not bahaullah. Just doesnt make a world of sense.

Bahaullah fulfilled all prophecies that were in Bible. He did not fulfil the prophecies that people had invented by their own imagination, and unrealistic expectations, but He fulfilled all that is written in the Scriptures. I

Explain that to the jews.

Your beliefs have to be historically logical at least. It is not written in scripture anyone else but christ will return. Bahaullah the person has no place in christianity. Wedging the same colored piece in a puzzle but differing shapes doesnt mean you belong. You are not part of their puzzle.

The sooner you understand that the more respect you have for religions outside of your own.

EDIT

I live in a catholic own apartment complex, with christian neighbors, friends, and coworkers. In a christian immediate environment, with chridtian and muslim classmates, with church on every street corner in all sourounding areas. I was never indoctrinated. My extended family are heavily christian-sola scriptura christian. Ive read and studied the bible as a youngyin. I converted with thousands of other christians five years ago to the church. I read the full bible and studied it.

I can think of one person who converted to christianity right here on RF. I never heard that with any other faith but christianity and muslim. But not so much Muslim in america especially since 911.

Im not a bible quoter. Unless I learn something from the conversation and its not a used to prove something rather than knowledge, I wont take scripture and bahaullah words into consideration if you are trying to proove a point. I disagree any sacred scripture being used that way directly or indirectly.

Christianity (the body of christ) is heavily devoted to christ and christ only. They even disregard the jews view for their own. Why would they accept bahaullah?

If you cant accept their beliefs as facts, then how do you expect me to believe you when you are not christian and your interpretation of christian scripture is not from a christian view but from bahaullah?

Makes no sense.

 

[Vinayaka]

Something has to give.

Yes, and clearly, something gave, and I'm happy for you. That belief was one of the main intellectual reasons I knew I was Hindu. Back then the analogy was either drawing a circle around all of humanity, or drawing a box with clear barriers of inside and outside, the ole 'us versus them' mentality.

Edited: And yet part of me understands that the switch from Christianity to Bahai is little more than switching of prophets. There is still the undeniable need for a prophet. That's why, as you have stated, Baha fits better into the Abrahamic family of faiths.

 

[Vinayaka]

These requires official statistical numbers. It is not like we can make an accurate conclusion, simply by reading something off internet.

Number distortion has always been a technique for anyone trying to prove their side, whether it be war casualties, party polling in elections or religious adherents. It's just part of life, and ego to be proud of one's side. Reality is somewhere in the middle.

My kid, wanting me to buy him a skateboard, told me that 'Everyone' at his school owned one. His version was 100%. When I asked around, there were 4 kids out of 15 that had skateboards.

The point here is that it is highly unlikely that the number of Bahai adherents is as high as it is portrayed by Bahai, but that exaggeration is just natural.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Peace happens with mutual respect, understanding differences, finding agreement, and respecting each others boundaries.

There is no bahaullah in world peace just the peace bahai envision. No different than christians want everyone to be saved to bring peace.

Unless you are saying we do need one dominate religion, no. I dont agree with one foundation for all religions. If religions want to have peace, a lot need to drop that "I am right" mindset.

Many have a political mindset. Every post on this thread about war and such is all political not spiritual.

If you want to address peace for all refer to the people themselves. Bahaullah has no place in World peace just the peace you want that

Many others do not agree with.

The main reason we don't have peace now is Baha'u'llah is out of the equation. No matter what they've tried, anything short of the unity of mankind and religion just isn't working.

The Baha'i Community proves the unity of religion brings peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Number distortion has always been a technique for anyone trying to prove their side, whether it be war casualties, party polling in elections or religious adherents. It's just part of life, and ego to be proud of one's side. Reality is somewhere in the middle.

My kid, wanting me to buy him a skateboard, told me that 'Everyone' at his school owned one. His version was 100%. When I asked around, there were 4 kids out of 15 that had skateboards.

The point here is that it is highly unlikely that the number of Bahai adherents is as high as it is portrayed by Bahai, but that exaggeration is just natural.

What is the worldwide Bahai population according to the official Bahai website? And what is the Bahai worldwide population according to non-bahai sources?
Actaully, I as a Bahai, have no interest to show there are so many Bahais, because to me, the numbers prove nothing. It seems to me, unfortunately, there is a misunderstanding, that as if Bahais are after conquering the world. This is a false View. As said repeatedly, Bahais believe in Spiritual Education of Mankind, and are trying to promote it, without asking any body, to come and convert. This is just a fact as I see it from inside Bahai Faith. Other people from outside actually have a lot of misunderstandings about the Bahai View, and I do not blame them, because there is a lot of false information about Bahais on the internet, that was deliberately put on the internet, trying to misrepresent the Bahais. One of those, is, to try and show Bahais are trying to claim their numbers are high. This view is false, because Bahais do not even believe numbers are indications of anything. In Our View, even if, there was no one found to believe in Bahaullah, the Truth is, Bahaullah is the Manifestation, and it is only a failure of humanity not to recognize Him. And for sure, for me, it has no effect on my belief, if there was more or less Bahais. I only see things with my own eyes, independent of what others want to believe or disbelieve.

 

[Vinayaka]

The main reason we don't have peace now is Baha'u'llah is out of the equation.

Six billion people plus are doing just fine without your prophet. But that is the nature of all prophet based religions, and groups who have a chosen infallible leader. In my view, that is an extremely narrow view. The world would still be here had Baha'u'llah (or any other leader/avatar/prophet/manifestation) never set foot on the place.