How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Only? What about Jains, Vaishnavas, Amish, SokaGaka Buddhists, Gandhians, JW, Mormons....And note that many in these traditions do not consider unity to be a virtue, diversity leads to richness that is a worthy contribution in itself. It's very easy to be peaceful when one is a small minority group not in charge of running a society or a nation. And do not say that there are none who left the Bahai faith. There is only one JW and only one Mormon church as well. The Sikhs remain united as well. It is the practice of autocracies to use unity as the stick to police dissent and diversification. I certainly consider it far better to disagree and quarrel rather than surrender autonomy of thought and action to propped up infallible authority. It's better to be violent than to be at peace under such conditions.

There is nothing lost what so ever in saying this is my conviction but I am open to being shown wrong. If what one believes indeed turns out to be true, then you are following your convictions anyway. But if it's wrong, one is open to be shown this fact and change one's views in accordance with truth. Thus the attitude of acting one's convictions while being open to skepticism about them is a fruitful stance that pays rich dividends.

But I would like to hear your reasons for believing Bahaiullah to be infallible. He makes claims certainly, but why do you believe them. Unity is not a good enough reason. Better be lions than sheep, for violence to inner autonomy and agency is far worse kinds of violence than mere bodily harm.

I respect your views on infallibility and I think that over time and a much larger Bahá'í Community you may wish to look at it again.

As to why I believe Baha'u'llah to be infallible and believe in His claims. It was a mystical experience best described in the Words of Baha'u'llah Himself as His Words are what I experienced those few days I was alone reading His Words.

First He describes the requirements for a true seeker to be able to open the inner eyes and see truth and Certitude.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

This is what I actually experienced inwardly. Over a few days alone.

“At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of negligence. Then will the manifold favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind.

So great shall be the discernment of this seeker that he will discriminate between truth and falsehood even as he doth distinguish the sun from shadow.”

“He will likewise clearly distinguish all the signs of God—His wondrous utterances, His great works, and mighty deeds—from the doings, words and ways of men, even as the jeweller who knoweth the gem from the stone, or the man who distinguisheth the spring from autumn and heat from cold”

He... will perceive all the hidden teachings, will enter the City of Certitude,

with his inner eye will he discover the mysteries of “return” and “revival.”

“Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude.”

I was overcome with bliss, ecstasy and joy. Perfect inner peace, contentment and Certitude. Knowledge replacing belief.

It's as if all my veils were removed and I could see for the very first time. I had questioned, interrogated, opposed, abused, insulted, rejected it, tried to expose its falsehood, challenged, contested, argued incessantly, ridiculed, intimidated and belittled Baha'is views of things and did everything in my power to prove this was just another brainwashing cult poisoning men's minds, but the thing I underestimated was the power of the Words of Bahaullah.

As I read them more and more I became transformed spiritually. No one with me just myself and Baha'u'llah's Words.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I dont speak figuratively though. None of your post reflect what I said especially the one where follwers cant interpret their own faith correctly. So..

Huh?

Never mind then. Probably a miscommunication on my part.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not at all. I am fully aware of many of these links and have read dozens of their stories. From Marshall to Cole and others.

The Universal House of Justice deals with perfect justice with every Bahá'í.

the Guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice, to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both). Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God;

Yes I know. Besides leaving Baha'i', you can get kicked out, and you have spurned God. So what happens to these people, now that they have a wrathful God after them? Seems to go against a lot of the Baha'i teachings, no?

 

[Vinayaka]

Anyone can be wrong but there is relative truth for our age I believe and we can discover it with investigation and research.

I agree with that too, except that yours and my discoveries are vastly different. For me, there is no one discovery that fits all. For you there is.

 

[Vinayaka]

that over time and a much larger Bahá'í Community you may wish to look at it again.

This is one massive assumption ,,, that Bahai is actually growing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes I know. Besides leaving Baha'i', you can get kicked out, and you have spurned God. So what happens to these people, now that they have a wrathful God after them? Seems to go against a lot of the Baha'i teachings, no?

Nothing happens to them. There is no wrathful God chasing them. They just go their own way because they do not agree with our teachings.

Is a person suitable to be a Hindu if He is against ahimsa?

Which Bahai teachings do you feel it is against?

The foundation of individuals in the Baha"i community is love, mercy forgiveness and to look with a sin covering eye, but the foundation of the 'community' rests on justice to protect the community.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Never mind then. Probably a miscommunication on my part.

Seriously, what do you mean?

 

[Vinayaka]

The foundation of individuals in the Baha"i community is love, mercy forgiveness and to look with a sin covering eye, but the foundation of the 'community' rests on justice to protect the community.

I see this as contradictory while you don't. One one hand you say 'unity' and then on the other hand you put op a barrier to detractors. With wording like this "Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God;" it\s pretty cl;ear that the House of Justice speaks rather lowly of those who leave by saying they have contended with God. The language is fear-mongering, and sounds like trying to instill a lot of guilt. Not my style.

But obviously you're reading it differently than me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is one massive assumption ,,, that Bahai is actually growing.

All the major religions began with only a few followers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Seriously, what do you mean?

You were always telling me to consult other religionists.

So when I put the links up to the different religions you approved.

I then commented that your education is finally getting through to me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You were always telling me to consult other religionists.

So when I put the links up to the different religions you approved.

I then commented that your education is finally getting through to me.

Oh. You were talking about yourself as a dense piece of hardwood?

Interesting analogy, and I'm glad you're understanding a bit more.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see this as contradictory while you don't. One one hand you say 'unity' and then on the other hand you put op a barrier to detractors. With wording like this "Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God;" it\s pretty cl;ear that the House of Justice speaks rather lowly of those who leave by saying they have contended with God. The language is fear-mongering, and sounds like trying to instill a lot of guilt. Not my style.

But obviously you're reading it differently than me.

Those words are in the Will of Abdul-Baha where He passed on His authority to Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice. They are not the words of the House of Justice. Abdul-Baha says to disobey or turn against them is to turn against God.

Law and order in the world is based on reward and punishment. Every society has punishments for breaking the law, the Baha'i Faith is no different. Baha'i society has its laws too.

In the world too everyone believes in human rights and freedom but if a person commits a crime he forfeits certain rights and depending on the crime may be fined or imprisoned.

Is society abusing the human rights of the law breaker by incarcerating him? Of course not. He needs to be re educated and society must be protected from him until then.

Remorse is a good thing. If a person experiences remorse after wrong doing, that will often stop him from re offending.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh. You were talking about yourself as a dense piece of hardwood?

Interesting analogy, and I'm glad you're understanding a bit more.

Yes exactly! Lol

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

Here is some information directly from Seeking Native American Spirituality just in case others didn't want to click the link.

If you're trying to learn about American Indian religion because you want to become a part of it, though, you not only face that problem, but another, much deeper one as well: American Indian spirituality is not evangelistic. It is private and entirely cultural. You cannot convert to 'Native American' any more than you can convert to African-American or Korean or any other cultural identity you would need to be raised in to understand. (In fact, many Indians--myself included--are Christians in addition to our traditional tribal beliefs, just like many African-American and Korean people are Christian in addition to having an ethnicity of their own.) The only way to 'join' a Native American spiritual tradition is to become a member of the cultural group, and it's impossible to do that over the Internet. No one who truly believed in American Indian spirituality would ever offer to tutor total strangers in religious matters online, much less charge anyone money for such a thing. So, by definition, the people who make these offers are those who either don't really believe in Native American spirituality, or don't know very much about it. Is that really who you want to be listening to?​

The author is speaking of people, like me, who say they have Cherokee blood so they are "Cherokee" but the fact is I am no more Cherokee in culture (as you are no more Christian in belief) than I am in any other nationality because to be so, I'd have to grow up and/or be part of that cultural community (or be part of that Christian faith as a practitioner). Many people "ask permission" by gaining the trust of a said community or even legal wise by seeing if they have enough native american blood from their mothers side before even being technically accepted as a native american.

The only way to 'join' a Native American spiritual tradition is to become a member of the cultural group, and it's impossible to do that over the Internet. No one who truly believed in American Indian spirituality would ever offer to tutor total strangers in religious matters online, much less charge anyone money for such a thing. So, by definition, the people who make these offers are those who either don't really believe in Native American spirituality, or don't know very much about it. Is that really who you want to be listening to?​

The author uses join, I use Ask Permission. The concept is the same. It's virtually impossible to join every cultural tradition without offending the people of opposing culture. Depending on age, it's even more so difficult because without time in growing up in the culture and religion (they are combined) you only know surface level about it.

So, it is technically impossible for Bahaullah and his son to practice all revealed religions in order to have more insight about, say the Hindu faith, in order to state as a fact what he says is true and a Hindu false (yes because you take his interpretation over the followers).

It's a huge pet peeve but hope Bahais understand it now.

 

[sayak83]

I respect your views on infallibility and I think that over time and a much larger Bahá'í Community you may wish to look at it again.

As to why I believe Baha'u'llah to be infallible and believe in His claims. It was a mystical experience best described in the Words of Baha'u'llah Himself as His Words are what I experienced those few days I was alone reading His Words.

First He describes the requirements for a true seeker to be able to open the inner eyes and see truth and Certitude.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

This is what I actually experienced inwardly. Over a few days alone.

“At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of negligence. Then will the manifold favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind.

So great shall be the discernment of this seeker that he will discriminate between truth and falsehood even as he doth distinguish the sun from shadow.”

“He will likewise clearly distinguish all the signs of God—His wondrous utterances, His great works, and mighty deeds—from the doings, words and ways of men, even as the jeweller who knoweth the gem from the stone, or the man who distinguisheth the spring from autumn and heat from cold”

He... will perceive all the hidden teachings, will enter the City of Certitude,

with his inner eye will he discover the mysteries of “return” and “revival.”

“Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude.”

I was overcome with bliss, ecstasy and joy. Perfect inner peace, contentment and Certitude. Knowledge replacing belief.

It's as if all my veils were removed and I could see for the very first time. I had questioned, interrogated, opposed, abused, insulted, rejected it, tried to expose its falsehood, challenged, contested, argued incessantly, ridiculed, intimidated and belittled Baha'is views of things and did everything in my power to prove this was just another brainwashing cult poisoning men's minds, but the thing I underestimated was the power of the Words of Bahaullah.

As I read them more and more I became transformed spiritually. No one with me just myself and Baha'u'llah's Words.

Good, thank you. I have had similar mystical experiences as well, so I understand. But I do not infer the tradition by which I gained such experience to be infallible for that reason, just efficacious in making the spiritual life authentic by following its methods and hence worth pursuing. It is like this, just because a cookbook successfully helps me make delicious food does not make it the final, perfect, infallible cookbook in the world. There is a distinction between saying that this tradition works and this tradition is the final infallible culmination of all traditions.

 

[Vinayaka]

All the major religions began with only a few followers.

I'm not saying it won't happen, just saying it is highly unlikely, considering current retention rates, and other factors. Especially with the internet going all over the planet, people generally can do their independent investigation, and the red flags will show up. There are still a few pockets of rural villages where the people remain vulnerable to unscrupulous proselytization tactics like friendship evangelism, but those places are fast disappearing. So soon the Pioneers will have no place to go.

 

[Vinayaka]

Law and order in the world is based on reward and punishment.

Certainly not in my world view. That's a uniquely Abrahamic good/bad mindset.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are for greater and innovate people what have lived. But as they did not become the focuses of religions I guess they do not matter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

Here is some information directly from Seeking Native American Spirituality just in case others didn't want to click the link.

If you're trying to learn about American Indian religion because you want to become a part of it, though, you not only face that problem, but another, much deeper one as well: American Indian spirituality is not evangelistic. It is private and entirely cultural. You cannot convert to 'Native American' any more than you can convert to African-American or Korean or any other cultural identity you would need to be raised in to understand. (In fact, many Indians--myself included--are Christians in addition to our traditional tribal beliefs, just like many African-American and Korean people are Christian in addition to having an ethnicity of their own.) The only way to 'join' a Native American spiritual tradition is to become a member of the cultural group, and it's impossible to do that over the Internet. No one who truly believed in American Indian spirituality would ever offer to tutor total strangers in religious matters online, much less charge anyone money for such a thing. So, by definition, the people who make these offers are those who either don't really believe in Native American spirituality, or don't know very much about it. Is that really who you want to be listening to?​

The author is speaking of people, like me, who say they have Cherokee blood so they are "Cherokee" but the fact is I am no more Cherokee in culture (as you are no more Christian in belief) than I am in any other nationality because to be so, I'd have to grow up and/or be part of that cultural community (or be part of that Christian faith as a practitioner). Many people "ask permission" by gaining the trust of a said community or even legal wise by seeing if they have enough native american blood from their mothers side before even being technically accepted as a native american.

The only way to 'join' a Native American spiritual tradition is to become a member of the cultural group, and it's impossible to do that over the Internet. No one who truly believed in American Indian spirituality would ever offer to tutor total strangers in religious matters online, much less charge anyone money for such a thing. So, by definition, the people who make these offers are those who either don't really believe in Native American spirituality, or don't know very much about it. Is that really who you want to be listening to?​

The author uses join, I use Ask Permission. The concept is the same. It's virtually impossible to join every cultural tradition without offending the people of opposing culture. Depending on age, it's even more so difficult because without time in growing up in the culture and religion (they are combined) you only know surface level about it.

So, it is technically impossible for Bahaullah and his son to practice all revealed religions in order to have more insight about, say the Hindu faith, in order to state as a fact what he says is true and a Hindu false (yes because you take his interpretation over the followers).

It's a huge pet peeve but hope Bahais understand it now.

I understand exactly where you're coming from and you make

@loverofhumanity

Here is some information directly from Seeking Native American Spirituality just in case others didn't want to click the link.

If you're trying to learn about American Indian religion because you want to become a part of it, though, you not only face that problem, but another, much deeper one as well: American Indian spirituality is not evangelistic. It is private and entirely cultural. You cannot convert to 'Native American' any more than you can convert to African-American or Korean or any other cultural identity you would need to be raised in to understand. (In fact, many Indians--myself included--are Christians in addition to our traditional tribal beliefs, just like many African-American and Korean people are Christian in addition to having an ethnicity of their own.) The only way to 'join' a Native American spiritual tradition is to become a member of the cultural group, and it's impossible to do that over the Internet. No one who truly believed in American Indian spirituality would ever offer to tutor total strangers in religious matters online, much less charge anyone money for such a thing. So, by definition, the people who make these offers are those who either don't really believe in Native American spirituality, or don't know very much about it. Is that really who you want to be listening to?​

The author is speaking of people, like me, who say they have Cherokee blood so they are "Cherokee" but the fact is I am no more Cherokee in culture (as you are no more Christian in belief) than I am in any other nationality because to be so, I'd have to grow up and/or be part of that cultural community (or be part of that Christian faith as a practitioner). Many people "ask permission" by gaining the trust of a said community or even legal wise by seeing if they have enough native american blood from their mothers side before even being technically accepted as a native american.

The only way to 'join' a Native American spiritual tradition is to become a member of the cultural group, and it's impossible to do that over the Internet. No one who truly believed in American Indian spirituality would ever offer to tutor total strangers in religious matters online, much less charge anyone money for such a thing. So, by definition, the people who make these offers are those who either don't really believe in Native American spirituality, or don't know very much about it. Is that really who you want to be listening to?​

The author uses join, I use Ask Permission. The concept is the same. It's virtually impossible to join every cultural tradition without offending the people of opposing culture. Depending on age, it's even more so difficult because without time in growing up in the culture and religion (they are combined) you only know surface level about it.

So, it is technically impossible for Bahaullah and his son to practice all revealed religions in order to have more insight about, say the Hindu faith, in order to state as a fact what he says is true and a Hindu false (yes because you take his interpretation over the followers).

It's a huge pet peeve but hope Bahais understand it now.

I agree with you that what you say applies to us people. The Manifestations of God however, we believe, had innate knowledge of everything so are not constrained by human limitations.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are for greater and innovate people what have lived. But as they did not become the focuses of religions I guess they do not matter.

What do you mean by far greater?