How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

There is sufficient documents from ancient Greece available to make a determination. Which material sourced from Classical Greece even refers to any such thing happening? After all the works of the philosophers, the dramatist and historians like Herodotus and Thucydides are all available. I am linking a source for reference

Greek Historians

You cannot make such spectacular and evidence free claims and expect them to go unchallenged. Why do you believe such claims?

This link also has some evidences to support that Greek Philosophers were inspired by Jewish Bible.


Socrates in History and the Bahá'í Writings

 

[Vinayaka]

only good has come from it.

Tell that to all the folks who have left Baha'i feeling burnt by it. All the divorcees, all the shunned ones, all the victims of abuse. Tell them that only good has come from it. See what they say to you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Would not follower of every revealed religion say the same for their own faith? Would not ex believers say the exact opposite? As a person influenced by Socrates (who had no influence from Moses) who time and again showed how claims of certainty of others fell apart under examination, I am inclined to be highly skeptical to such expressions of infallible certainty. It is certainties that lead to violence, it appears. I find no evidence that can justify that arrogant ion of certainty and infallibility can ever lead to world peace. It creates strong cohesion within groups and equally strong opposition among groups. It's people who open things out to uncertainties that transcends groups or infallibility claims that breach such boundaries... Rumi, Kabir, Muinuddin Chisti, Nanak, Emerson, Gandhi are good examples
Here is Buddha on the subject.

—------——---------------------------
There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now.
Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false.Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken.

Some things are well-liked and yet vain, empty and false. Some things are not well liked and yet genuine, factual and unmistaken.

Some things are unbroken tradition...

Some things are well-reasoned...

Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken.

In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

Yes, we have many religionists claiming their clergy are infallible mostly ending in disaster. So I can agree with you that the concept of infallibility can be destructive if the persons claiming infallibility are not.

I think the argument 'only this is true; anything else is worthless' can also apply to those arriving at a 'definite conclusion' that infallibility is false. It may, under rare circumstances be valid. To say categorically it is not is to break the rule 'only this is true'. In other words the argument 'only fallibility is true' is flawed because it is saying anything other than fallibility is worthless in referring to infallibility.

So shouldn't we be open to the 'possibility' that infallibility may be possible?

Throughout history ordinary men claiming infallibility have caused destruction. However, we Baha'is have had 173 years of 'infallibility' through the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice and it has been nothing but positive. After 173 years we are still only one world community with no wars or conflicts.

If infallibility could never work how is it that it works in the Baha'i Community?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, we have many religionists claiming their clergy are infallible mostly ending in disaster. So I can agree with you that the concept of infallibility can be destructive if the persons claiming infallibility are not.

I don't know of infallibility in the dharmic context. Perhaps there are some paramparas where infallibilty is there, but I'm not aware of one. Definitely not a teaching in my sampradaya. Incredible wisdom, deep mystical realisation, insight, sure, all of that. But infallibility? That's just hyperbole at is finest.

"This person is NEVER wrong." Wow. Just wow.

For me, it's incredibly illogical. It's a person saying, "I tell the truth because I say that I tell the truth." It has no evidence to support it. Besides that, times change, each individual is unique, there are many colours to the world, and more. There is no absolute truth or one size fits all on a worldly level.

 

[Vinayaka]

If infallibility could never work how is it that it works in the Baha'i Community?

It doesn't and that's another realisation people have that comes before they leave Baha'i.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Tell that to all the folks who have left Baha'i feeling burnt by it. All the divorcees, all the shunned ones, all the victims of abuse. Tell them that only good has come from it. See what they say to you.

it's our 40th wedding anniversary next year so how come we weren't 'burnt'. We are an interracial and eastern/western marriage with absolutely nothing in common from colour to language to customs and culture. My wife was born into a Baha'i family and I've been a Baha'i for 42 years so why haven't I been shunned or abused?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't know of infallibility in the dharmic context. Perhaps there are some paramparas where infallibilty is there, but I'm not aware of one. Definitely not a teaching in my sampradaya. Incredible wisdom, deep mystical realisation, insight, sure, all of that. But infallibility? That's just hyperbole at is finest.

"This person is NEVER wrong." Wow. Just wow.

For me, it's incredibly illogical. It's a person saying, "I tell the truth because I say that I tell the truth." It has no evidence to support it. Besides that, times change, each individual is unique, there are many colours to the world, and more. There is no absolute truth or one size fits all on a worldly level.

I understand you because in all of human history this would be the very first time ever a Body has been conferred with infallibility in writing by the Prophet in His Own Hand with His Seal.

So I fully agree that it's almost impossible for you to accept but again after 173 years where are our wars and we are one united world community. If infallibility doesn't work then how have we remained one world community for so long?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It doesn't and that's another realisation people have that comes before they leave Baha'i.

Baha'is are very happy to be Baha'is. We feel honoured and privileged.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I read a lot from what other Pagans believe in. There is a book called People of the Earth. The author interviewed different religious about their faith and how they see other people's faith. Books on holistic medicine and finding ways to connect with the earth are part of my faith. Wrapping my life with the cycles of the moon and sun are part of it. Art is an out and used as prayer and spiritual practice. I've been collaging lately. I didn't know how relaxing it is to put together meaningful pictures, quotes, and pictures that call to me. It's relaxing to the soul.


It's one of many beliefs that have their view of what is sacred and perfect. I've never saw life that way. The Buddha hasn't either. So, it puzzles me that you incorporate The Buddha's teachings in your faith when so far I've seen your faith is completely opposite. That is my opinion. Nothing more.

It's paperback I'm after digital. Also you said holistic medicine. What kinds? Homeopathy? Herbalism?

The Buddha has so many beautiful teachings that I oersonally love.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's paperback I'm after digital. Also you said holistic medicine. What kinds? Homeopathy? Herbalism?

The Buddha has so many beautiful teachings that I oersonally love.

Ahh. I saw it at an used bookstore and got it for less than two dollars. I was so happy. As for holistic medicine, I'm still learning. Right now I'm reading about how to cure illnesses and even clean your house using natural foods and other "ingredients." Did you know you can clean your bathtub and walls with a lemon. It has acid in it. I tried it and it was sparkly clean. Better than the chemical stuff. Different salts like Epsom and sea salt helps with sore feet and things like that. A lot of things I'm not familiar because America is so artificial that what's common sense in another country is like gold here.

I'll try to figure some up to date books that are digital. Many ol' fashion, I guess, practitioners would do simple things and foods to cure ills while they said prayers and other ritual-prayers to ask god (or whomever) to help.

I want to put a whole sketch and journal book together on things I learn in a creative way. That way I can ask for prayers through my art. I don't know if you'd call that "pagan" or even neopagan at that. Spiritualist because I commune with the spirits and they help me out. But can't think of another word to sum it up.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Ahh. I saw it at an used bookstore and got it for less than two dollars. I was so happy. As for holistic medicine, I'm still learning. Right now I'm reading about how to cure illnesses and even clean your house using natural foods and other "ingredients." Did you know you can clean your bathtub and walls with a lemon. It has acid in it. I tried it and it was sparkly clean. Better than the chemical stuff. Different salts like Epsom and sea salt helps with sore feet and things like that. A lot of things I'm not familiar because America is so artificial that what's common sense in another country is like gold here.

I'll try to figure some up to date books that are digital. Many ol' fashion, I guess, practitioners would do simple things and foods to cure ills while they said prayers and other ritual-prayers to ask god (or whomever) to help.

I want to put a whole sketch and journal book together on things I learn in a creative way. That way I can ask for prayers through my art. I don't know if you'd call that "pagan" or even neopagan at that. Spiritualist because I commune with the spirits and they help me out. But can't think of another word to sum it up.

There are many forms of natural medicines and I much prefer them and holistic medicine than drugs. We are told that things that taste and smell good will be the remedies of the future.

What do you think about things like Faith healing? There's been a lot of frauds but then again we are told that the 'laying on of hands' can be medicinal as well as a person can catch good health from another person just like they can catch disease.

For things like nervous pain, Abdul-Baha said to gently stroke the painful area and repeat the name of God!!

 

[sayak83]

Yes, we have many religionists claiming their clergy are infallible mostly ending in disaster. So I can agree with you that the concept of infallibility can be destructive if the persons claiming infallibility are not.

I think the argument 'only this is true; anything else is worthless' can also apply to those arriving at a 'definite conclusion' that infallibility is false. It may, under rare circumstances be valid. To say categorically it is not is to break the rule 'only this is true'. In other words the argument 'only fallibility is true' is flawed because it is saying anything other than fallibility is worthless in referring to infallibility.

So shouldn't we be open to the 'possibility' that infallibility may be possible?

Throughout history ordinary men claiming infallibility have caused destruction. However, we Baha'is have had 173 years of 'infallibility' through the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice and it has been nothing but positive. After 173 years we are still only one world community with no wars or conflicts.

If infallibility could never work how is it that it works in the Baha'i Community?

Only? What about Jains, Vaishnavas, Amish, SokaGaka Buddhists, Gandhians, JW, Mormons....And note that many in these traditions do not consider unity to be a virtue, diversity leads to richness that is a worthy contribution in itself. It's very easy to be peaceful when one is a small minority group not in charge of running a society or a nation. And do not say that there are none who left the Bahai faith. There is only one JW and only one Mormon church as well. The Sikhs remain united as well. It is the practice of autocracies to use unity as the stick to police dissent and diversification. I certainly consider it far better to disagree and quarrel rather than surrender autonomy of thought and action to propped up infallible authority. It's better to be violent than to be at peace under such conditions.

There is nothing lost what so ever in saying this is my conviction but I am open to being shown wrong. If what one believes indeed turns out to be true, then you are following your convictions anyway. But if it's wrong, one is open to be shown this fact and change one's views in accordance with truth. Thus the attitude of acting one's convictions while being open to skepticism about them is a fruitful stance that pays rich dividends.

But I would like to hear your reasons for believing Bahaiullah to be infallible. He makes claims certainly, but why do you believe them. Unity is not a good enough reason. Better be lions than sheep, for violence to inner autonomy and agency is far worse kinds of violence than mere bodily harm.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't know of infallibility in the dharmic context. Perhaps there are some paramparas where infallibilty is there, but I'm not aware of one. Definitely not a teaching in my sampradaya. Incredible wisdom, deep mystical realisation, insight, sure, all of that. But infallibility? That's just hyperbole at is finest.

"This person is NEVER wrong." Wow. Just wow.

For me, it's incredibly illogical. It's a person saying, "I tell the truth because I say that I tell the truth." It has no evidence to support it. Besides that, times change, each individual is unique, there are many colours to the world, and more. There is no absolute truth or one size fits all on a worldly level.

The Bahais do not accept blindly, the infallibility of Bahaullah or Abdulbaha.
The Bahai belief is solely through the investigation, and in my understanding, it relies on at least the following:
1. According to history Bahaullah and Abdulbaha did not study, and did not go to school, they did not have books to study, yet they had detailed knowledge of Traditions, histories, sciences, and holy books. Bahais see these as a sign of divinity. The history of Bahai Faith is fairly recent, and there are many historical accounts, which gives us a detail knowledge of days of Bahaullah and Abdulbaha, narrated by many people who lived at the time, summing to thousands of pages. There is nothing to refute the claim of Bahaullah as regards to His inner knowledge.
2. The woks of the Bab, Bahaullah and Abdulbaha, sums up to about 200 volumes of scriptures. No errors or mistakes could anybody proved in them. Their writings are available on internet.
3. The previous World Religions Traditions all prophesied about Manifestations of the Bab and Bahaullah, with many signs, such as the year, places and duration there Two would appear. All of these prophecies which are over thousands match with Them in Bahai View. There are many books written that explains details of these prophesies and showing they match the Bab and Bahaullah.
4. We know, for example Bahaullah lived in Persia, 19th century, and according to history, the people of His time were very cruel, superstitious, and fanatics. Bahaullah, among them, taught unity of mankind. Perfect democracy. He said they should vote and select their representatives, in locals and countries and worldwide, even though in His time they were kings and tyrants. He taught many new things as seen in His Writings, which clearly shows His Wisdom. He was also very powerful spiritually, and even He had many Enemies, yet, He could overcome them.

I only say these few reasons, just so it may be understood why Bahais believe Bahaullah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Only? What about Jains, Vaishnavas, Amish, SokaGaka Buddhists, Gandhians, JW, Mormons....And note that many in these traditions do not consider unity to be a virtue, diversity leads to richness that is a worthy contribution in itself. It's very easy to be peaceful when one is a small minority group not in charge of running a society or a nation. And do not say that there are none who left the Bahai faith. There is only one JW and only one Mormon church as well. The Sikhs remain united as well. It is the practice of autocracies to use unity as the stick to police dissent and diversification. I certainly consider it far better to disagree and quarrel rather than surrender autonomy of thought and action to propped up infallible authority. It's better to be violent than to be at peace under such conditions.

There is nothing lost what so ever in saying this is my conviction but I am open to being shown wrong. If what one believes indeed turns out to be true, then you are following your convictions anyway. But if it's wrong, one is open to be shown this fact and change one's views in accordance with truth. Thus the attitude of acting one's convictions while being open to skepticism about them is a fruitful stance that pays rich dividends.

But I would like to hear your reasons for believing Bahaiullah to be infallible. He makes claims certainly, but why do you believe them. Unity is not a good enough reason. Better be lions than sheep, for violence to inner autonomy and agency is far worse kinds of violence than mere bodily harm.

I wrote something up for Viyanaka, trying to show why Bahais have confidence in Bahaullah.
You can also read the following two pages about Bahaullah:

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[sayak83]

I wrote something up for Viyanaka, trying to show why Bahais have confidence in Bahaullah.
You can also read the following two pages about Bahaullah:

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Please link a source book written by an independent modern historian with actual degree in history who writes about early Bahai movement and corroborates these claims. Thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please link a source book written by an independent modern historian with actual degree in history who writes about early Bahai movement and corroborates these claims. Thanks.

How would you decide if he is independent?
I think independent investigation of truth is something we should do ourselves. There are many researchers who looked into Bahai Faith.
Their works may still contain error. So, we need to analyze their books. Eventually, the historical books, must be analyzed against verifiable evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

At the end of the link, it names some of the historical books written by researchers. I believe some of them have related academic background:
But i do not think, university degree is important with that regard. What I would suggest, is looking for many Bahai Histories. Many are written by Bahais. Some written by non-Bahais who were neither enemy, nor believers, such as Edward Brawn, and some are written by Enemies of Bahaullah. Then look at evidences, and investigate which account is more seemly for yourself.

History of the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

it's our 40th wedding anniversary next year so how come we weren't 'burnt'. We are an interracial and eastern/western marriage with absolutely nothing in common from colour to language to customs and culture. My wife was born into a Baha'i family and I've been a Baha'i for 42 years so why haven't I been shunned or abused?

2 people out of 5 million isn't exactly a decent sample size. of course many people are happy with Baha'i'. Your comment was 'nothing but good' which implies that Baha]i has been life-changing utopia for all who have joined. And my comment was that it hasn't been. Nothing is black and white like that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand you because in all of human history this would be the very first time ever a Body has been conferred with infallibility in writing by the Prophet in His Own Hand with His Seal.

So I fully agree that it's almost impossible for you to accept but again after 173 years where are our wars and we are one united world community. If infallibility doesn't work then how have we remained one world community for so long?

You haven't. You express a utopia that doesn't exist. Sorry to break it to you.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'is are very happy to be Baha'is. We feel honoured and privileged.

Yes, many are. But do you personally know all 5 million of them? I really don't want to start providing links to the dozens of anti-Bahai blogs and journals, but if you google 'leaving Bahai' or some such thing, you can find it for yourself. However, I presume that that might be against the rules for you, so it's all good.