How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi Carlita,

I've been a little preoccupied the last few days. Hopefully a little time to catch up now.

Here's a quote from Baha'u'llah on silence that sounds almost Buddhist like:

The essence of true safety is to observe silence, to look at the end of things and to renounce the world.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 155-157

I had wondered about what Buddha said in regards to the Hindu Faith He grew up in.

'On one occasion, Malunkyaputta asked the Buddha a number of questions: whether or not the world is eternal; whether the world is finite or infinite; whether or not the soul and the body are identical; and about the existence of the saint after death. He received no direct reply. Instead the Buddha related a parable: "It is as if a man is hit by a poison arrow. His friends hasten to the doctor. The latter is about to draw the arrow out of the wound. The wounded man however cries: `Stop, I will not have the arrow drawn out until I know who shot it. Whether a warrior or a Brahmin, or belonging to the agricultural or menial castes . . . his name and to which family he belonged . . . of what species and description the arrow is.'" In seeking to attain absolute knowledge of all of the circumstances of the shooting, the man neglected the practical matter of removing the arrow and would certainly die. Similarly, the Buddha asserts that were he to try to elucidate the answer to the questions that Malunkyaputta had put to him, "that person would die before the Tathagata had ever elucidated this to him"

This story speaks to me of the practicalities of the spiritual path, especially in times of urgent need. Sometimes our intellects and philosophical musings need to be put to one side.

Hmmm... I'll get back to you on this. Speaks worlds of wonders.

 

[Vinayaka]

When Galileo built on the work of Copernicus to provide proofs that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around I'm sure there were many that disagreed, and even more that couldn't see what the fuss was all about. Does it really matter if we believe the earth is flat and the centre of the universe? As long as we are happy believing what we believe...right? Does it really matter if some believe in Creationism and the earth came into exist less then 10,000 years ago with a happy coexistence of man and dinosaurs not long after?

Way off topic and irrelevant. That's science, not a switch from an old infallible prophet to a new infallible prophet. It's clear that in science, people build on previous knowledge. Not clear at all in religion.

Much of the messages for the new age of Baha'i' is perfectly fine. it's all the stuff specific to accepting Baha'u'llah and the vagueness of some that people have trouble with. Yes , a greater distribution of wealth, and gender equality are very positive things. In that list from your previous post, i agree with about a third of it.

 

[Vinayaka]

“The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions.”

– ‘Abdúl-Bahá

Not if either side is totally unwilling to shift their opinion, discussion does nothing. With the infallibility principle in place, it's hard for people to shift.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Indeed, he's much more to the point, and avoids all the flowery stuff, and there is less redundancy. If I do read further, I'm sure you'll get more critiquing. Not sure you want that.

If the Baha'is are not up to having our faith scrutinised, and constructively engage with those who see things very differently from ourselves, how can we claim to lovers of humanity's diversity?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not if either side is totally unwilling to shift their opinion, discussion does nothing. With the infallibility principle in place, it's hard for people to shift.

I personally avoid the use of the word infallible in discussions such as these. I think it creates unnecessary barriers. If Baha'u'llah has said something, lets look at the pros and cons of it.

 

[Vinayaka]

If the Baha'is are not up to having our faith scrutinised, and constructively engage with those who see things very differently from ourselves, how can we claim to lovers of humanity's diversity?

I agree. Problems arise when people make claims, make statements, but then, when things get deeper, don't actually follow through in action. So ... I ask again ... if the Baha'i's are so fond of diversity, why do they send their young pioneers off to far away lands as missionaries trying to change those people, REGARDLESS of what those people believe. If you loved diversity so much, you'd go visit much like a tourist or cultural anthropologist, try to learn something from those people, and return home a wiser person. Actions speak far louder than words, and I suspect you know it.

 

[Vinayaka]

I personally avoid the use of the word infallible in discussions such as these. I think it creates unnecessary barriers. If Baha'u'llah has said something, lets look at the pros and cons of it.

That's wise, but you still see it as infallible. Avoiding a word doesn't mean you've altered your belief. Not coming clean can be seen as another 'strategy'.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Way off topic and irrelevant. That's science, not a switch from an old infallible prophet to a new infallible prophet. It's clear that in science, people build on previous knowledge. Not clear at all in religion.

Science is not always as clear as we would like it to be, and sometimes what is true and false in religion is very clear. The point being that at least some of what we consider reality whether in the physical or spiritual realm can be investigated and understood.

Much of the messages for the new age of Baha'i' is perfectly fine. it's all the stuff specific to accepting Baha'u'llah and the vagueness of some that people have trouble with. Yes , a greater distribution of wealth, and gender equality are very positive things. In that list from your previous post, i agree with about a third of it.

A third is better than a quarter.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I agree. Problems arise when people make claims, make statements, but then, when things get deeper, don't actually follow through in action. So ... I ask again ... if the Baha'i's are so fond of diversity, why do they send their young pioneers off to far away lands as missionaries trying to change those people, REGARDLESS of what those people believe. If you loved diversity so much, you'd go visit much like a tourist or cultural anthropologist, try to learn something from those people, and return home a wiser person. Actions speak far louder than words, and I suspect you know it.

It is about people with options. I have no problem if a person chooses to be a Baha'i or a Hindu but it works both ways. Its always wise to undertand the people we are trying to discuss faith with. Having conversations with Christians is part of my day to day life so that it is easy. Talking about spiritual matters with peoples of differing faiths is more challenging. Always the attitude needs to be what can I learn, more than what can I teach. However I strongly believe in the freedom to choose a faith and for faith adherents to teach those who are genuinely interested.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's wise, but you still see it as infallible. Avoiding a word doesn't mean you've altered your belief. Not coming clean can be seen as another 'strategy'.

Although I believe God can speak to humanity through His Manifestations, there is the question of clearly understanding what He meant. Its easy to think we have got it right when we haven't at all.

It sounds as if you don't believe God speaks through Baha'u'llah and of course you are free to have your beliefs as I have mine.

 

[Dawnofhope]

First to discover who they are, if they are who they claim they are.

As any prophet that came professing their a prophet, Do we take just for granted that they are who they claim to be?

What about those that will come in our time claiming to be a prophet, Do we take it for granted they are who they will claim to be a prophet.

In to days world people are looking for a prophet to come.
There are some Religious organizations that claim to have a prophet. But are they a true Prophet?

The question is, How or by what will give us how to determine to establish what a true or false prophet is.

Of course no matter how a person goes about it to show to establish how to know the difference between a true and false prophet.
People will not be able to handle it.

For an example, If you go to show people their prophet is a false prophet, They will come in defiance of the evidence that you have brought forward to prove your case no matter how much solid evidence you bring to support your claim they will refute it.

They will know down deep what your producing is solid evidence, but for them to accept it. They would be admitting that their whole religion is all base on a false prophet?
Therefore rather than people to admit this, they will come out in defiance against you.

No matter how much solid evidence you have to support your case. They will Not accept it.

Let's take for instance the christianity Religion. There are those in Christianity that will say, we have a prophet.

Now comes Christ Jesus showing in his own words, Showing how to determine a false prophet.

Christ Jesus in the book of Mark 13:22,23,
Speaking about how false Christ's and false prophets shall rise.

Take note that in Mark chapter 13, that Christ Jesus just foretold all about the end times.Ok

Note that in Mark 13: 23 Christ Jesus saying " But take you heed, behold, I have foretold you all things"

By this statement of Christ Jesus, Jesus is showing that if a person comes to claim to be a prophet and in the giving Prophecy about the end times.

Christ Jesus shows them as being a false prophet, because Christ Jesus has already foretold all things concerning the end times.
This is how to know a false prophet.

But however, these very people who claim to be of Christianity, will even go on the attack of Christ Jesus himself. For saying what he said.
They will refute anything and everything that Christ Jesus will say, just to up hold their prophet as being a prophet.

Note that a prophet is a teacher, which are also called Pastor's, Preachers, Rabbi.

Therefore "How are these great beings explained"

That all depends on, what Religion you follow,

Because alot of Religion's will not accept them as being great.
So it all depends on what Religion you follow or belong to.

Very good.

So how do you know that Jesus was a true prophet?

How do you know mine is false?

 

[Vinayaka]

Science is not always as clear as we would like it to be, and sometimes what is true and false in religion is very clear.

True, but in religion there is generally a wider range for 'true' amongst people.

 

[Vinayaka]

Very good.

So how do you know that Jesus was a true prophet?

How do you know mine is false?

Ahh, the irony, lol. So much in common ...

 

[Vinayaka]

However I strongly believe in the freedom to choose a faith and for faith adherents to teach those who are genuinely interested.

I do as well, as you know.

 

[Vinayaka]

It sounds as if you don't believe God spaks through Baha'u'llah and of course you are free to have your beliefs as I have mine.

It took you this long to figure that out? Wow, just wow.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ahh, the irony, lol. So much in common ...

Its a well traversed rabbit hole, believe me.

 

[Vinayaka]

Its a well traversed rabbit hole, believe me.

Not all of us are in it. Some of us are on the outside looking at it, and going, 'What? Really?" It boils down to the very basic principle of not believing that other people have the right to their belief. Sure polite people say they believe it, but when push comes to shove, they actually don't believe it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Very good.

So how do you know that Jesus was a true prophet?

How do you know mine is false?

It's like I said, that all depends on what Religion that you belong to.

In Christianity Jesus is more than a prophet.

But now the question rises, Who is a True and false Christian ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The essence of true safety is to observe silence, to look at the end of things and to renounce the world.

This story speaks to me of the practicalities of the spiritual path, especially in times of urgent need. Sometimes our intellects and philosophical musings need to be put to one side.

In general, yes, when it blocks one's understanding of The Buddha's teachings (in this case), then it is a distraction. Here is a similar one I think you'd like.

63. Cūḷamālunkya Sutta: The Shorter Discourse to Mālunkyāputta

A lot of questions I asked were clarification questions that keeps blocking discussion and keeping it in circles. It's best if one is discussing a particular point, after stating our views on that point, to go deeper (if one wishes to converse) to understand each other. Without that, it goes nowhere.

I like The Buddha's words because he does spend a lot of time explaining in analogies why the disciples who ask him questions are still at a lost to reach enlightenment. More so dialogues rather than statements of truths as in abrahamic text.

I can't think of anymore reflection than this, really. Time for me to rise and shine.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's like I said, that all depends on what Religion that you belong to.

In Christianity Jesus is more than a prophet.

But now the question rises, Who is a True and false Christian ?

I'm very clear that I'm a Baha'i as you are very clear that you are a Christian.

So Jesus is more than a prophet? Let me guess...

(1) Son of God
(2) God incarnate
(3) Physically resurrected from the dead
(4) fulfilment of Messianic prophecies in the OT
(5) all of the above

I guess (5)