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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I would offer none are ignored. Krishna is always on the list as people have compiled lists of Prophets that have been confirmed, many are listed, Major and Minor.

And we have explained how Krishna doesn't belong on the list at all, and many times asked what the Baha'i' view of religions not mentioned in the basic 9? Mormonism, Scientology, shamanism, Confucionism, Taoism, Satanism, and the list goes on. Rather than admitting you don't know much at all about them, we just get some vague answer that there is some good in all. The only thing that is always evident is that Baha'i' tops the superiority list of all religions, and Baha'u'llah is the greatest prophet ever. Frankly it comes across as childish, all this competition. the 'I'm right and you're wrong' attitude of this type of Abrahamic mindset is really little different than two three-year-olds fighting over a toy each claiming it is theirs. It's childish.

The 'major' and 'minor' thing seems totally arbitrary as well. It's making judgement where there is no need to make judgement. Who gives the Bahai'i the qualification to Grade other religions as if it were some spelling test in elementary school? It shows great disrespect, builds great disunity, and is therefore an action that contradicts nearly everything you say you stand for.

I say focus on Baha'i' beliefs, and leave other religions out of it. That will build character, and not at the expense of putting others down so you feel superior.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Let me ask. Why do you feel we are imperfect human beings?

What is imperfection to a universe that is constantly and naturally changing, giving birth, aging, and dying?

In other words, what does it mean to the universe to be imperfect?

Hi Carlita.

I think because our potential is limitless so no matter how knowledgeable or wise we become we can always become more wise and more knowledgeable. So I think the sky’s the limit as far as humanity’s advancement and progress therefore we can never be said to have reached a stage of complete perfection beyond which we can no longer continue to advance.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes I agree we must think deeper, but what does that mean to you?
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhism/parable_burning_house.html
In the analogy of The Burning House, an elder with many kids, property, etc. One day, there was a fire and his children didn't recognize the fire because they were playing and doing their thing. The father tried to tell the blind-minded children they were in danger. He told them how they were in danger, what can happen to them, etc.

Then he thought of a good idea. Instead of explaining how dangerous the house was because of the fire, he lied and told his children there were jewels outside, carts of them, and that is how he got the children from the house.

1. He changed his tone and words to the given situation in order to save his children. Looking deeply means understanding and adapting the conversation not only to your needs but the needs of the people (people) you speak to. It does not mean you forget yourself. It means you think of others.

2. Looking deeply is literally coming out of your shoes to be in another person's shoes. It is empathy. Not many people have strong empathy while others have it so much it exhausts them. I remember asking if someone who lacks empathy thought killing was moral and someone who loves god thought saving a life was, if these two people must agree with each other for world peace, where would they start.

It means asking questions with the motivation and interest to answer them. Not just from Buddha perspective. Not just from Bahaullah perspective. A back and forth thing. It's healthy assertive conversation technique that's a prerequisite for any philosophical musings if one has the patience to think in that way.

When you suggest we need to go deeper, what are you hoping to find?

I never thought about finding anything. My therapist asked me that and he looked puzzled when I said I never "searched" for truth (aka my signature). I love religion and just really probing the psychology of religious thought. Most people in person and online take it as an offense and get defensive. My friend literally told me not to tell her what I learned about, say, Catholicism because it would make her doubt her faith. Others just don't want to touch "what if" questions.

I asked on RF years ago if there were something about your faith that you find difficult to understand or come to terms with, what would that be. One member got defensive as if I asked her to find something wrong with her faith.

I'm not a silent person. I'm very expressive and that is my nature and personality. I use that both in what I do in work and when I study the Dhamma. Sharing about my latest art work to talking with my friend about the girl I was dating.

If I can talk deeply and really get into what-ifs and analogies with other topics, why would religion be such an exclusion for people. I mean, some people would literally (or actually do) tell me about their personal life with their mates but if I asked them what they prayed for, it's hush hush.

Sometimes people can't be open. One thing I learned about Buddhism is 1. Admitting it 2. Finding the cause (if it brings up issues) 3. Acknowledging a solution 4. The goal itself. 5. The actual steps out of that goal.

But if we do not have empathy for others, why would we care about other people's personal life such as religion when we barely know them?

I was never that way. That's how you get to know people.

Also age and type of religion plays a part in it. Culture most definitely. That's another way to go deeper. Don't use culture, age, and religion as an excuse to not talking about a topic you chose to put yourself into.

You-people in general.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Also, I'm so far behind on keeping up with this thread, that I don't know how far back our Revelation questions are. So I'll ask one here. You guys have multiple references to 1260 years. This gets us from the Hejira to the declaration of the Bab. But, what date prophecies do you have from Revelation that get us to the date of the start of Islam and the declaration of Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

This is a work in Progress

[GALLERY=media, 8368]Daniel Prophecy Timeline by Tony Bristow-Stagg posted Oct 8, 2017 at 8:12 AM[/GALLERY]
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Has it really though? Whenever the 'resort to what I know' technique comes up in difficult debate topics, the Bahai'i here still put Krishna on that list and ignore all who fall outside the box. Words differing from actions equals hypocrisy.

I think that Baha’u’llah has defined that religion always initially revolved around a Manifestation.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How would you define advancement?

I was reading about different ways different cultures view life when it comes to life and death. Some see life as linear. We go from point A to point B. and we reached our goal. Others see the goal as circular. The journey is the goal. Life is circular. So, how does one advance (or come to an end/be limitless/perfect) when life's cycle does not end just because we die?

Hi Carlita.

I think because our potential is limitless so no matter how knowledgeable or wise we become we can always become more wise and more knowledgeable. So I think the sky’s the limit as far as humanity’s advancement and progress therefore we can never be said to have reached a stage of complete perfection beyond which we can no longer continue to advance.

What is perfection to the universe, though?

To me, if it's not applicable to the universe (to the laws of nature in which I am a part of), it's, how do they say, an illusion. For example, killing and not killing as bad and good are illusions. To the universe, they mean nothing in and of themselves. That is why it's a human moral rather than a universal fact.

So, I see imperfection the same way, an illusion. We suffer, yes. That's the point of life. We put limits on ourselves,

but how do you define perfection if you (humanity, no pun) is stuck in thinking they are born edit imperfect?

:leafwind: I have a lot of think-out-loud questions.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why not?
This is probably our biggest single difference, and why we will never agree. Not just you and I but the entire two paradigms ... Abrahamic and Dharmic. I do think they are all right. Baha'i' is right for you. Christianity is right for a Christian, Hinduism is right for me. Hindus believe that, sincerely. Our version of God created the many religions and faiths so each of his spawned souls would have a place to suit them. No personality, no degree of evolution of the soul is left out. Everyone gets a spot.

The Abrahamic version takes the other strategy. There just has to be one size that fits all. Once that particular statement is etched in stone in the brain, the entire world view follows. It explains why Abrahamics have missionary zeal. They will go to great lengths to go to far off corners of the globe to tell everyone the 'Good news' of their prophet, whether it be Christ. Baha'u'llah or whomever. The Hindu sees absolutely no need to do this, becuase all those people in those far off corners are doing just fine with whyat God created for THEM.
Baha'is like to point out that man's interpretations and added traditions are bad and dilute the true, original meaning of the prophet. But, like with Jesus, we don't know what that original teaching was.

People told the story. So how accurate is that? People decided which writings got included in the New Testament. People made those writings the infallible Word of God. And people had to interpret them.

The simplest, most basic form of Christianity says that people must accept Jesus to be saved from going to hell. But how does that tie in with any other religion? How is that part of any progression? They only include Judaism as part of their progression. And they completely replace Judaism. All other religions are totally and completely false. So you have Dharmic, but do any of the Abrahamic religions see themselves as anything but the only true religion? And of course, they've got to go tell everybody about it.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
In the analogy of The Burning House, an elder with many kids, property, etc. One day, there was a fire and his children didn't recognize the fire because they were playing and doing their thing. The father tried to tell the blind-minded children they were in danger. He told them how they were in danger, what can happen to them, etc.

Then he thought of a good idea. Instead of explaining how dangerous the house was because of the fire, he lied and told his children there were jewels outside, carts of them, and that is how he got the children from the house.

Great story.

I see in this Story we are told truths also relating to this World, except for it being a Lie. He led them outside with a deeper truth away from their own pleasures leading to death, not a lie, but in the knowledge that life was lost in the House and the jewels of Life could still be had outside the house. When the Children later look back, they would not see it as a lie, but as Wisdom in Love.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I asked on RF years ago if there were something about your faith that you find difficult to understand or come to terms with, what would that be. One member got defensive as if I asked her to find something wrong with her faith.

To me that is easy, it would be the inability to have full knowledge of God. We do not like to know that we have a limit of Mind, that there is a limit to what we can know.

This has been the greatest cause of Division in all Faiths to date.

I see Vinayaka explains this doubt to us in the best way, it is in the word Infallible.

I have found in life, that starting the journey of knowing our limitations, allows us to consider what may be unlimited.

We can not fill our cup if it is already full.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Lamb took the Book out of the One Who sat on the Throne. The Lamb was not the One on the Throne. It is very clear Revelation 5:5 speaks of two Manifestations the Lamb that was slain and the One seated on the Throne the Lion of Juda.

All Manifestations have the power to unseal the meanings of the Books which is why it says that first the Lion was the only one worthy but then later also said the Lamb was worthy. Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah revealed the true meanings of the mysteries of the Holy Books.

All the teachings of the Manifestations are perfect but as we advance and progress and develop more capacity, God sends Messengers to reveal more of the truth to us and also to renew the true spirit of faith which over time decays due to our own egos changing the meanings from what they were intended to be.

For instance, the Prophets did not teach exclusiveness but inclusiveness. Over time however, people drifted away from that and now are competing instead of cooperating so we need Baha’u’llah’s teachings to remind us religion is about accepting all not divisiveness and superiority.
No, it is not clear. The Lion of Judah and the Lamb sound like the same being. The one on the throne sounds like God, and God is never the one that unseals the the book.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
How would you define advancement?

I was reading about different ways different cultures view life when it comes to life and death. Some see life as linear. We go from point A to point B. and we reached our goal. Others see the goal as circular. The journey is the goal. Life is circular. So, how does one advance (or come to an end/be limitless/perfect) when life's cycle does not end just because we die?

What is perfection to the universe, though?

To me, if it's not applicable to the universe (to the laws of nature in which I am a part of), it's, how do they say, an illusion. For example, killing and not killing as bad and good are illusions. To the universe, they mean nothing in and of themselves. That is why it's a human moral rather than a universal fact.

So, I see imperfection the same way, an illusion. We suffer, yes. That's the point of life. We put limits on ourselves,

but how do you define perfection if you (humanity, no pun) is stuck in thinking they are born edit imperfect?

:leafwind: I have a lot of think-out-loud questions.

This has been answered by Abdul'Baha, he gave a talk on it, it is best to post the opening paragraph and supply the link to the remainder, it is not a long talk.

"Know that the conditions of existence are limited to the conditions of servitude, of prophethood, and of Deity, but the divine and the contingent perfections are unlimited. When you reflect deeply, you discover that also outwardly the perfections of existence are also unlimited, for you cannot find a being so perfect that you cannot imagine a superior one. For example, you cannot see a ruby in the mineral kingdom, a rose in the vegetable kingdom, or a nightingale in the animal kingdom, without imagining that there might be better specimens. As the divine bounties are endless, so human perfections are endless. If it were possible to reach a limit of perfection, then one of the realities of the beings might reach the condition of being independent of God, and the contingent might attain to the condition of the absolute. But for every being there is a point which it cannot overpass; that is to say, he who is in the condition of servitude, however far he may progress in gaining limitless perfections, will never reach the condition of Deity. It is the same with the other beings: a mineral, however far it may progress in the mineral kingdom, cannot gain the vegetable power; also in a flower, however far it may progress in the vegetable kingdom, no power of the senses will appear. So this silver mineral cannot gain hearing or sight; it can only improve in its own condition, and become a perfect mineral, but it cannot acquire the power of growth, or the power of sensation, or attain to life; it can only progress in its own condition...."...Continued - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’í World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá (‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s Section Only), Pages 328-330

Thus as you note we are unlimited in potential to acquiring the goodly Attributes, but we are limited in servitude.

The example of this was Abdul'baha. (Servant of Baha)

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
But Baha'is believe they have the truth. So what happens to those with differing opinions to Baha'i truth?

We all stand at the shore of the same body of water that is the sea to this world. We have named that sea by oceans and attributed the rivers that feed into it as different.

If we go into the meeting knowing that we do swim in the same body of water, that we feed from this water and that the water gives us all life. Then our differing opinions when clashed will find what is common in our diversity, all will learn a bit more about what the water provides, but our diversity will remain. We will share more of the Diversity.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
why is it that you collected and used prophecy of coming of next prophets or manifestations from other religions but you failed to give a new one for the next prophet? and as you claim that this is the most modern religion of god with best stuff pouring down then maybe god should ve been much more clear and precise about the next prophet , as im sure if god updated himself and felt the need to send new religion he should ve sent better and clear data for the next prophet since we know of his constant habbit of correcting past mistakes as observed .

The question of the next prophet or Manifestation of God is addressed in the Baha'i writings:

Recognition of the Next Manifestation of God

Baha'is believe the appearance of a new spiritual teacher is always a spiritual test for us all. His appearance is obvious for those with eyes to sees, as opposed by the spiritually blind.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Great story.

I see in this Story we are told truths also relating to this World, except for it being a Lie. He led them outside with a deeper truth away from their own pleasures leading to death, not a lie, but in the knowledge that life was lost in the House and the jewels of Life could still be had outside the house. When the Children later look back, they would not see it as a lie, but as Wisdom in Love.

Regards Tony

The suttas use lie to mean the father was not telling the truth to his children. Rather, The Buddha says the father literally told the children falsehood (a lie) in order to save his children. Basically, to give them an illusion of what the mind can understand in order to save them since the mind can't comprehend the truth.

So, the lie is another word for illusion which is not symbolic but our actual state of mind we have now. In order to see and get out of that delusion (see the falsehood for what it is), we-Buddhists-follow the example and practice of The Buddha to end rebirth (to die).

It's a positive word referring to the illusions we have and stuck in. It can be referred to as wisdom of love. That was the intent of the father but The Buddha does want us to acknowledge our illusions/the lies not just the intentions behind them.

What types of truths in the story do you believe The Buddha is expressing?

I edited it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
how is a prophet different from a manifestation ?

Manifestation is a term Baha'i use for those who bring a new religion or revelation from God. Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are all considered examples of Manifestations of God. They are much more than a prophet.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

and if bahaullah is manifestation of the almighty himself then why did he have no miracle powers ,

Although Baha'u'llah performed many miracles, Baha'is do not emphasis this as a proof of His greatness.

Bahá’u’lláh – in the words of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

if he did what were those kindly list them and explain in detail. please don't say because of how bahaullah lived or his character, as i can give you umpteen examples of exceptional character who never claimed themselves to be any different from human beings.

Baha'u'llah was tortured, imprisoned, and exiled for a period of 40 years yet bore these afflictions with grace and dignity for the sake of God. He had an enormous influence on the hearts and minds of many He came in contact with. He has a devoted following of 5 - 8 million followers established in practically every country in the world. 100 years after His passing the Encyclopaedia Britannica identified the Baha'i faith as one of the most widespread religions in the world. I doubt if any of those you refer to will achieve this.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
To me that is easy, it would be the inability to have full knowledge of God. We do not like to know that we have a limit of Mind, that there is a limit to what we can know.

This has been the greatest cause of Division in all Faiths to date.

I see Vinayaka explains this doubt to us in the best way, it is in the word Infallible.

I have found in life, that starting the journey of knowing our limitations, allows us to consider what may be unlimited.

We can not fill our cup if it is already full.

Regards Tony

I've never understood the view of imperfection, limitation, and concepts that make humanity a victim rather than a participant of change and mystery.

Why do you consider limitations a disadvange?

(Similar to my never-ending question of how are differences negative; what's the difference to you between differences and diversity)

To me, to see oneself as limited is a passive way of wanting to be "like god."
 
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