How are these Great Beings explained?

[RoaringSilence]

According to Baha'i belief God reveals Himself to different peoples at different points in history according to their capacity in a way that is understandable. That is using the language and concepts of the Arabs through Muhammad, and the similar God provided a message to the Jews then the gentiles through Jesus.



The evidence for Islam and Christanity is the positive influence Muhammad and Christ have had on millions of souls throughout many centuries.



There are not that many religions that have stood the test of time and been readily accepted by peoples in many different cultures. The main ones have been Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. Hinduism has spread through immigration and has mostly been an ethnic faith of the indian subcontinent and its peoples as far as I can see. Correct me if I'm wrong.



The problem isn't the new religion as you say. The problem is the intractible misunderstandings between differing faith adherents.



It is the content of the theocracy that is new, not that it is a theocracy.



The power of His teachings to positive influence and transform the lives of his followers

The example Of Baha'u'llah's life

The fulfilment of prophecies

I don't deliberately mispell the name of the One whom you rever. Why do it to mine?

why is it that you collected and used prophecy of coming of next prophets or manifestations from other religions but you failed to give a new one for the next prophet? and as you claim that this is the most modern religion of god with best stuff pouring down then maybe god should ve been much more clear and precise about the next prophet , as im sure if god updated himself and felt the need to send new religion he should ve sent better and clear data for the next prophet since we know of his constant habbit of correcting past mistakes as observed .

 

[RoaringSilence]

how is a prophet different from a manifestation ? and if bahaullah is manifestation of the almighty himself then why did he have no miracle powers , if he did what were those kindly list them and explain in detail. please don't say because of how bahaullah lived or his character, as i can give you umpteen examples of exceptional character who never claimed themselves to be any different from human beings.

 

[RoaringSilence]

The power of His teachings to positive influence and transform the lives of his followers

The example Of Baha'u'llah's life

The fulfilment of prophecies

all these don't sum up to anything , in india we have a prophet /manifestation /guru every week and these 3 things are pretty common nothing godlike about them and far far away from what a manifestation is capable of.

also can you list what all prophecies have been fulfilled , kindly do not add any prophecy which is vague and can be interpret in 10k ways, only precise predictions , something that one can expect coming from god and not some crystal ball viewer at a carnival

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It may be that we should take the opportunity to understand what was offered by Baha'u'llah, as it is not about me, it is about you understanding your own self.

This is why there is no understanding between us because you offer and offer but you do not like nor talk about what is offered (if you like that word) to you in return. I would never take an offer from anyone who does not show interest in what I have to say.

It has nothing to do with what you are offering.

If you choose to read any of the quote below, the last section reflects what was being said about the Names of the Messengers.

I cannot understand a word of it. I tried translating it; but, even if I took time to do so, you'd still not be interested in how I see things.

If you keep thinking I will understand what you post like magic or god talking to me, you are wrong. You'd have to either take interest in another approach or do not offer anything towards world peace.

You will note, the Message of Baha'u'llah is a challenge to us all, He makes it clear and does not hold back His purpose;

Yes. I know. You have to go deeper than that.

Say O people don't withhold the yourself from the grace of god and his mercy. Whoever holds themselves is at greivious loss. Do you worship then turn away from your lord? Fear god and don't be those that will parish. The book of god has been sent down in this form...take good heed, people of this world,

Take ye good heed, O peoples of the world, lest ye flee from His face. Nay, make haste to attain His presence, and be of them that have returned unto Him. Pray to be forgiven, O people, for having failed in your duty towards God, and for having trespassed against His Cause, and be not of the foolish. He it is Who hath created you; He it is Who hath nourished your souls through His Cause, and enabled you to recognize Him Who is the Almighty, the Most Exalted, the All-Knowing. He it is Who hath unveiled to your eyes the treasures of His knowledge, and caused you to ascend unto the heaven of certitude—the certitude of His resistless, His irrefutable, and most exalted Faith. Beware that ye do not deprive yourselves of the grace of God, that ye do not bring to naught your works, and do not repudiate the truth of this most manifest, this lofty, this shining, and glorious Revelation. Judge ye fairly the Cause of God, your Creator, and behold that which hath been sent down from the Throne on high, and meditate thereon with innocent and sanctified hearts. Then will the truth of this Cause appear unto you as manifest as the sun in its noontide glory. Then will ye be of them that have believed in Him.

Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with anyone, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful."

How does this relate to being interested in diversity in that you learn about what other people offer and not just what you offer to us?

Get pass what you have in your hands. We know. We know. Go deeper.

Thus if one has had great tests in life, one must have great capacity, it is up to those tested to find that capacity.

No matter what, I will always wish you well, kind regards Tony

If it makes you feel better, than so be.

World peace starts with us-not one person.

If The Buddha speaks as a revealed prophet, what he says goes totally against your style of offering world peace. He talks about us-as people. Getting to know each person and talk to them in a manner they understand (The Lotus Sutta). He talks to bodhisattvas that in our reaching out to serve others, we not only learn about ourselves but the people we are serving.

We do not offer, expect people to accept, and walk away if they do not. We change our tone, our words, in the manner they understand it. It's totally different.

If you want to talk to me you have to be interested in what I say in a religious debate forum. I keep asking you questions for deeper understanding and you ignore them.

So how can you bring world peace like that? (and this is another question that has not been answered)

 

[loverofhumanity]

"...Revelation it says only the Lion of Juda can unravel Whom we believe to be Baha’u’llah in His Book of Certitude."?​

Problem, the Lion of Judah is worthy, but the Lion is also the Lamb that was slain? And it's the Lamb that opens the book. So how do you explain that?

"What we are saying is that the Teachings of Baha’u’llah are perfect and right for this age not that we are anything special or perfect. We are very imperfect. We are just saying that we believe if the world put into practice the teachings of Baha’u’llah then it would be a far better place."
​

Hmmm? So was Jesus' teachings perfect? And how long before they got all messed up... because of imperfect people?

The Lamb took the Book out of the One Who sat on the Throne. The Lamb was not the One on the Throne. It is very clear Revelation 5:5 speaks of two Manifestations the Lamb that was slain and the One seated on the Throne the Lion of Juda.

All Manifestations have the power to unseal the meanings of the Books which is why it says that first the Lion was the only one worthy but then later also said the Lamb was worthy. Both the Bab and Baha’u’llah revealed the true meanings of the mysteries of the Holy Books.

All the teachings of the Manifestations are perfect but as we advance and progress and develop more capacity, God sends Messengers to reveal more of the truth to us and also to renew the true spirit of faith which over time decays due to our own egos changing the meanings from what they were intended to be.

For instance, the Prophets did not teach exclusiveness but inclusiveness. Over time however, people drifted away from that and now are competing instead of cooperating so we need Baha’u’llah’s teachings to remind us religion is about accepting all not divisiveness and superiority.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You know what I found interesting. I remember Jehovah Witnesses, I think, have a rule about speaking or debates or something or other. There was a time many of them didn't talk because of it. Probably a holiday of some sort.

I notice in regards to speech, Bahaullah says actions are better than words. Also idle talk isn't good and if the talk is not of good intention, then it's best not to talk at all. Bahai view on speech. I know there is a lot to learn on RF, but @loverofhumanity , what was the purpose of the thread if not letting people who disagree with you clarify what Bahai beliefs about the great leaders compared to their religion in which the rest of us follow?

I think we are all learning here and always trying to take in any clarifications. For instance Hinduism is not only about Krishna. That has been clarified and opened all our eyes.

 

[loverofhumanity]

To be really new, we have to give up the old ways of Baha'i' as well. Clearly that hasn't worked. I find Baha'i's very much in that comfort zone you speak out against.

We’re human too and learning too, so yes for sure we get stuck in our own comfort zone like anyone else. We are no different to any other imperfect human being.

 

[Sundance]

Why not?
This is probably our biggest single difference, and why we will never agree. Not just you and I but the entire two paradigms ... Abrahamic and Dharmic. I do think they are all right. Baha'i' is right for you. Christianity is right for a Christian, Hinduism is right for me. Hindus believe that, sincerely. Our version of God created the many religions and faiths so each of his spawned souls would have a place to suit them. No personality, no degree of evolution of the soul is left out. Everyone gets a spot.

The Abrahamic version takes the other strategy. There just has to be one size that fits all. Once that particular statement is etched in stone in the brain, the entire world view follows. It explains why Abrahamics have missionary zeal. They will go to great lengths to go to far off corners of the globe to tell everyone the 'Good news' of their prophet, whether it be Christ. Baha'u'llah or whomever. The Hindu sees absolutely no need to do this, becuase all those people in those far off corners are doing just fine with whyat God created for THEM.

Brother Vinayaka, as to a lack of missionary zeal among Hindus, my understanding of the situation is that such a lack is not necessarily due to the understanding of God that some Hindus possess, as Bahá’ís possess a similar understanding of God and religions. Rather, I suspect that the possession or lack of missionary zeal arises from the very natures of the different religions. Allow me to explain:

In the ancient world, religion was seen (for the most part) as being an expression of the beliefs, practices, and traditions of specific culture groups. Greeks had their own religious beliefs, Romans had theirs, the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Africans, Native Americans, and so on each had their own. This is why you didn't see the missionary zeal. Religion was a culturally-specific thing. Any religion would've been inextricably tied to whichever ethnic group it originated with. It had nothing to do with doctrines or theologies or the like. This explains why Judaism (an Abrahamic religion) was never a religion that sought converts. It is an ethnic religion, the religion of the Jewish people. It is not meant for non-Jews. (Not that non-Jews didn't convert on their own, mind you.)

Contrast that with a religion such as Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, or the Bahá’í Faith (or a religious organization like ISKCON). These are more culturally universal, in which they ARE meant for everyone (culturally-speaking) in the world.

 

[Vinayaka]

In the ancient world, religion was seen (for the most part) as being an expression of the beliefs, practices, and traditions of specific culture groups. Greeks had their own religious beliefs, Romans had theirs, the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Africans, Native Americans, and so on each had their own. This is why you didn't see the missionary zeal. Religion was a culturally-specific thing. Any religion would've been inextricably tied to whichever ethnic group it originated with. It had nothing to do with doctrines or theologies or the like. This explains why Judaism (an Abrahamic religion) was never a religion that sought converts. It is an ethnic religion, the religion of the Jewish people. It is not meant for non-Jews. (Not that non-Jews didn't convert on their own, mind you.)

Religion and culture are still very intertwined, in all faiths. I still see missionary zeal as basically a superiority complex. If not, then why bother? It goes so far as to pretend to like another culture just to make inroads into the true agenda, that of conversion. It's just way too sneaky for me. The sooner it gets banned on thi splanet, the better.

 

[Vinayaka]

We’re human too and learning too, so yes for sure we get stuck in our own comfort zone like anyone else. We are no different to any other imperfect human being.

Except that you have a perfect and infallible prophet to fall back onto in times of duress.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we are all learning here and always trying to take in any clarificati9ns. For instance Hinduism is not only about Krishna. That has been clarified and opened all our eyes.

Has it really though? Whenever the 'resort to what I know' technique comes up in difficult debate topics, the Bahai'i here still put Krishna on that list and ignore all who fall outside the box. Words differing from actions equals hypocrisy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We’re human too and learning too, so yes for sure we get stuck in our own comfort zone like anyone else. We are no different to any other imperfect human being.

Let me ask. Why do you feel we are imperfect human beings?

What is imperfection to a universe that is constantly and naturally changing, giving birth, aging, and dying?

In other words, what does it mean to the universe to be imperfect?

 

[Sundance]

Religion and culture are still very intertwined, in all faiths. I still see missionary zeal as basically a superiority complex. If not, then why bother? It goes so far as to pretend to like another culture just to make inroads into the true agenda, that of conversion. It's just way too sneaky for me. The sooner it gets banned on thi splanet, the better.

As to religion and culture being still intertwined, I do agree with you.

As for cultural contextualization, I don't see anything wrong with this unto itself. In fact, I see it as a very beautiful thing. For a religion to be not only able, but WILLING, to adapt to the contours of any culture, that (for me) is a joyous sight to see! It, then, makes sense to me that people from those cultures would take to it. Though, there can be an issue with cultural superiorities. If someone with one culture or religion approaches another with the idea that there's nothing of worth or value in that other culture or religion, then that is where it goes wrong. I don't see this attitude with many Bahá’ís. I, myself, don't have that attitude. Though, this is not at all to say that we are flawless in this endeavor, Vinayaka. I think that some of the comments in this thread early on attest to this. Plus, the rebuttals of various others has, for me, raised the necessity of properly understanding other religions through studying them in depth (insofar, as such a thing is even possible), asking sincere questions, immersing oneself in other cultures.

 

[Vinayaka]

AThough, there can be an issue with cultural superiorities.

In my view, it's not the cultural superiority that's the problem; it's the religious superiority. It's the fundamental and basic instinctive mind attitude that my religion, my belief is superior to yours. To have this basic drive sees other people as something that needs changing. Yes, there are a few people, who, in my view, do need changing. But to go out and try to change people who DON"T NEED CHANGING, to me, is fundamentally flawed thinking. It's not wrong, it's just immature.

I'm doing it here though. I think the Baha'i' do need changing. I think they need to have a harder look at their own intolerance, their evangelical missionary zeal, and all that. I'm hoping it would d be a better world if true tolerance of all mankind was more evident, not just a political pretending for the sake of finding converts.

 

[CG Didymus]

...There is no change in the Manifestations of God.
In some places, Manifestations even confessed their sins, yet, Abdulbaha says, this is only to teach others humility. It all suggests, the official Bahai view is, Manifestations are infallible, and All-knowing from beginning of Their birth. It seems, They only speak in a way that is acceptable to their audience.

What? Apply this to Adam. Noah, Abraham and Moses. Like I've said many times, Jews don't even see them as infallible.Why would Baha'is?

Also, I'll throw in a comment on the word "Christ". It was from Tony's post. In Judaism there were many "anointed" people, including prophets and kings.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So how can you bring world peace like that? (and this is another question that has not been answered)

I am sorry, most likely world peace will not happen through my ways and actions.

When you suggest we need to go deeper, what are you hoping to find?

To me world peace will unfold when we do go deeper to find that we are but one people on this planet earth and that is just the beginning.

From our point, We are told the aim is to find our true selves, that true self is the self of God within, with His Laws and Guidance.

Thus, as this is a concept beyond our vision, my personal thoughts is that we are all part of the whole. If we were to truly know our own selves, we would know the whole. The whole to me is the Great Beings, they are the source of us all. This knowledge is of the Attributes, all that we can be. In this life that knowledge must be manifested in deeds and not just words.

"Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form. When within thee the universe is folded?"

I also read this last night, how it opens our vision of what we are yet to find;

"O people! I swear by the one true God! This is the Ocean out of which all seas have proceeded, and with which every one of them will ultimately be united. From Him all the Suns have been generated, and unto Him they will all return. Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God’s creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing Knowledge, can reckon. This He hath accomplished through the agency of but one Letter of His Word, revealed by His Pen—a Pen moved by His directing Finger—His Finger itself sustained by the power of God’s Truth." Baha'u'llah.

All this to be found within, by closing our eyes to this world and finding our true selves.

Yes I agree we must think deeper, but what does that mean to you?

We had a little bit of rain last night, it had not rained since March, the aroma of Rain on dusty soils is amazingly beautiful.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What? Apply this to Adam. Noah, Abraham and Moses. Like I've said many times, Jews don't even see them as infallible.Why would Baha'is?

Also, I'll throw in a comment on the word "Christ". It was from Tony's post. In Judaism there were many "anointed" people, including prophets and kings.

Well, Jews are Jews, and Bahais are Bahais.

 

[CG Didymus]

According to Baha'i belief God reveals Himself to different peoples at different points in history according to their capacity in a way that is understandable. That is using the language and concepts of the Arabs through Muhammad, and the similar God provided a message to the Jews then the gentiles through Jesus.



The evidence for Islam and Christanity is the positive influence Muhammad and Christ have had on millions of souls throughout many centuries...

How do you tie in Shamanism and Polytheism into the progression of religion? What were the concepts of the Pagan religions when Jesus came? Did Jesus use some of those concepts, plus Jewish thought, to explain His teachings?

On the "positive" influence of Islam and Christianity. If you believe in the positive aspects, then that is in spite of both of them adding in what Baha'is say are false interpretations and the addition of man made traditions. So in both cases, it was not the supposed original teachings of Jesus and Muhammad that was the cause of their success.

Also, I'm so far behind on keeping up with this thread, that I don't know how far back our Revelation questions are. So I'll ask one here. You guys have multiple references to 1260 years. This gets us from the Hejira to the declaration of the Bab. But, what date prophecies do you have from Revelation that get us to the date of the start of Islam and the declaration of Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

 

[Vinayaka]

Also, I'm so far behind on keeping up with this thread, that I don't know how far back our Revelation questions are.

You didn't miss much. Same old same old. No cracks.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Has it really though? Whenever the 'resort to what I know' technique comes up in difficult debate topics, the Bahai'i here still put Krishna on that list and ignore all who fall outside the box. Words differing from actions equals hypocrisy.

I would offer none are ignored. Krishna is always on the list as people have compiled lists of Prophets that have been confirmed, many are listed, Major and Minor.

I am sure scholars of the future will put more effort of studying then, once the motivation is there to find this connection.

Until then, it has been offered that we look for the Good in All.

Regards Tony