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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Everybody has truth in them. No one person possesses it all. We Baha’is are no better than anyone else, not Hindus, Buddhists or aetheists. We just have a different perspective that’s all

Then why do you keep saying it, (as in the recent 'blind' example) and then when that's pointed out, you're unable to withdraw your statements? If you're serious about this, LH, then write a long explanatory letter to your House of Justice asking for the immediate stop to 'Pioneering', the acceptance of gay behavior, and the allowance of women on that House.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This saying of Baha’u’llah might or might not mean anything to you it’s God speaking to humanity directly.

“Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.” (Hidden Words)
Yes, that is the Baha'i' view, and the idea that it is God who is speaking the view of all prophet based religions. After 600 pages I don't think that basic stuff needs to be reiterated, but if you do feel I haven't read it before, go ahead, even though this may well be over 50 times now.

Anything new, or is DJ_sXe stunningly astute about the pointlessness we're all partaking in?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Then why do you keep saying it, (as in the recent 'blind' example) and then when that's pointed out, you're unable to withdraw your statements? If you're serious about this, LH, then write a long explanatory letter to your House of Justice asking for the immediate stop to 'Pioneering', the acceptance of gay behavior, and the allowance of women on that House.

I became a Baha’i because I accepted the Baha’i beliefs and understand why they are the way they are. But I don’t expect others to understand.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes, that is the Baha'i' view, and the idea that it is God who is speaking the view of all prophet based religions. After 600 pages I don't think that basic stuff needs to be reiterated, but if you do feel I haven't read it before, go ahead, even though this may well be over 50 times now.

Anything new, or is DJ_sXe stunningly astute about the pointlessness we're all partaking in?

For what it’s worth I’ve always valued the company of people such as yourself and Carlita here.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What's the SM mean? I'm on the JW 'do not ring' list. The Ganesha picture at the door scares them away. That's the good thing about dealing with fear based religions ... very easy to use it against them.
Hi...... again.
The SM only relates to the name of the Chad male who came to Britain. It might help any long-time Bahai readers.

My ancestors came from Britain. I hear it's not such a bad place.
Excellent! Mine didn't.
My ancestors came from New Zealand and Ireland.
I hear that they are not bad places either.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Equality is a fundamental belief of ours.

But that belief doesn't translate to practice. The treatment of homosexuals, the treatment of women, the treatment of non-Baha'i' by sending out pioneers, saying that we're blind, saying we have turned our back on God because we don't accept your manifestation, and more demonstrates quite clearly that equality is not a belief you actually act on. It's rather poorly disguised political correctness.

But I think I've had enough. I think I'll take DJ_sXe's lead and withdraw. it is clearly just reiteration after reiteration without any really deep soul searching going on.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
I'm sorry you have hatred in there somewhere. It's a very strong word ... about anything..

I know, brother. It just rips me apart to see people fight over religion, especially when there's an air of superiority. I despise this attitude. Period.

I do believe I have seen progress in this thread, and that it has been fairly civil, all things considered..

I have seen civility in the thread as well.

On a personal note, having observed and read your posts for the last while, I admit I was somewhat surprised at your recent decision. But hey, what do I know?

I mean, so was I Vinayaka, but I guess God was knocking on the door of my heart. Every person ought to follow whatever speaks loudest to their heart. The Bahá’í Faith does that for me, Hinduism does that for you, Vietnamese Buddhism (which is intriguing to me) speaks to @Carlita, and this is a very beautiful thing. I wouldn't have it any other way, frankly.

I wish you the best, your thoughtfulness is appreciated, and you're another example of how there is a wide variety of takes within the Baha'i' faith. Maybe we'll have an interchange in some other thread.

Thank you, brother. I greatly appreciate your devotion to your religion; it very deeply inspires my heart. :heart:
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
But that belief doesn't translate to practice. The treatment of homosexuals, the treatment of women, the treatment of non-Baha'i' by sending out pioneers, saying that we're blind, saying we have turned our back on God because we don't accept your manifestation, and more demonstrates quite clearly that equality is not a belief you actually act on. It's rather poorly disguised political correctness.

But I think I've had enough. I think I'll take DJ_sXe's lead and withdraw. it is clearly just reiteration after reiteration without any really deep soul searching going on.

I don’t understand. I’ve always valued your views. I’ve always considered it a blessing to mix with you. This is rather odd. Anyway I sincerely apologise if you feel that way. My feelings are all positive about all you guys.

I’ve gone out of my way to insist we Baha’is are not superior. I haven’t even discussed pioneers or said anyone was blind it’s against the spirit of my Faith. I clearly remember saying you’re probably much better. Ive initiated hardly any posts on my own, most of my posts have been replies to questions.

I won’t sleep at all tonight because this is just so out of character as I like you all and wonder what on earth I’ve done to make you feel so bad. Very, very sorry.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, Carlita, this is what I am saying, and I'll reiterate that it is a very fundamental difference in paradigms. In another post, I was asked whether or not I even occasionally felt I had a superior belief. I had to think about it, and yes, I do have a superior belief ... for me. It works for me, but I actually don't think it would work at all for other people. In fact, it would most likely do more harm than good because it would wreak havoc on a comfortable mindset.

Hmm. Here is a different perspective on that given I'm embedded in western cultural outlook. I don't care for the abrahamic mindset, but here is some insight.

If you're religion is only good for you, for example, than what you believe is not a fact but a belief. So, for example, Brahma would actually not exist universally but only exist as a belief.

When we consider something a fact, it is, by definition universal. We can disagree with two and two is four all we want, but the fact is, it does equal four.

So the belief in Brahma existing would not depend on you but you depend on Brahma. (Facts don't exist because of us; we depend on the facts) The experience in Brahman would not be dependent on you, but as a fact, you would be dependent (lack of better words) on the experience of Brahman.

Another example is rebirth. Life goes in a cycle regardless of my being here. To me (a clause that's not really needed just respectful *hint hint*) it is a fact. So, I am technically seeing my faith as superior to a whole-people included since we all experience rebirth-because this cycle isn't dependent on my belief or religion.

I think that, even though culturally and respectfully it isn't nice to say it, you believe your religion is a fact for all of life not just humans but everything-everything is Brahman. Everyone is. This wouldn't be dependant on you to be true but because it is a fact of life, this is one reason why you and many Hindus believe it.

It isn't more of a religion thing but more of a respect for other people in how they express their faith. While the religion does have a me vs. you, if one can admit that, it would save a lot of ills. Many people do not. JW are the only ones I came across that openly admit it.

Abrahamics actually do think their personal belief is better for all of mankind, even though sometimes they say they don't. This is a fundamental difference, and the proof in in the action of proselytizing. Hindus simply do not proselytize. In fact, we often say . "Go away!" Non Hindus aren't allowed in quite a few Hindu temples. There are many reasons for this, but one is to protect that individual from confusion.

Maybe your perspective isn't specifically the belief but by how people express their belief. Which makes sense because the belief is represented by the people. If most Bahai didn't present their belief in a negative way, I'd probably visit a Bahai temple. Since that is not the case, I don't feel motivated to go.

Abrahamics, on the other hand, reach out for people who will listen. The Baha'i' here are quite proud of how widespread their faith is on this planet. Well, sorry to break the news, but that's only because of the missionary zeal, not because of the natural greatness of the faith. All proselytizing faiths get widespread. It's a natural outcome, not anything special. People hear about stuff because someone tells them. Same principle for news, gossip, etc. Without an open line of communication, and a willingness for the sender to send out his message, there is no spreading.

I'd be cautious of grouping abrahamics together. One reason is western culture has a lot to do with abrahamic religious views. Christians pretty much stained it. But it is a culture clash between abrahamics and Dharmics. At least you see this. Some Bahai do but still find similarities as if they masks the differences which are crucial to understanding diversity thus differences

Buddhist are like Hindus. When we went out to the meditation retreat center an hour's drive away, what we got was a beautiful inner smile, not an invitation to return, not a bunch of pamphlets, not notices of upcoming events.

Yes. It is beautiful. I spent a whole day with a nun taking care of the abbots property while the abbot was in Vietnam. She showed me a lot, told me a lot, and I never received that type of connection with Catholics. So, it is a different worldview for sure.

So it is a fundamental and key difference that goes right down to the psyche of the individuals.

Oh, I wanted to ask. Since Hindu don't invite non-Hindu to temples, how do converts learn about Hinduism off the net? The temple I went has both Hindus and Buddhist ceremonies (Buddhist on occasion). They didn't tell me to leave but was curious why I was there.

Does this depend on the area or is this a general worldview for Hindus and how they see non-hindus?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don’t understand.

I won’t sleep at all tonight because this is just so out of character as I like you all and wonder what on earth I’ve done to make you feel so bad. Very, very sorry.

It's not sadness or anger, at all but a realisation that we're all not getting anywhere. You're correct. You personally haven't said we turn our backs on God, or said that we're blind. But people have. If you feel you need to argue against that, you certainly can. But that argument isn't with me. But so far I haven't seen any Baha'i' confront another Baha'i' on this thread. It's been nothing but lovey-dovey support.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Oh, I wanted to ask. Since Hindu don't invite non-Hindu to temples, how do converts learn about Hinduism off the net? The temple I went has both Hindus and Buddhist ceremonies (Buddhist on occasion). They didn't tell me to leave but was curious why I was there.

Does this depend on the area or is this a general worldview for Hindus and how they see non-hindus?

On this forum people ask questions. One person over in the Hindu DIR just did, and myself and others answered him as best we could. It was a thread about first time at a Hindu temple.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
On this forum people ask questions. One person over in the Hindu DIR just did, and myself and others answered him as best we could. It was a thread about first time at a Hindu temple.

Yeah. I read that. I'm curious then why would you say Hindus (can't remember the wording) don't openly welcome non-hindus when both the other member and I experienced otherwise?

Is it more of location? For example, I'm welcomed in an open Catholic Church. When we had our workshop for teaching at our local monastery and I asked to pay my respects to the Eucharist (they didn't know I was Catholic), they had a gross look. When I told them I was Catholic, then they smiled.

It could be cultural bias, I don't know. It's not an abrahamic thing but a "group" thing. As you see on these boards Jews are very condescending of non-jews converting to judaism. I was treated very rudely when I went to a synagogue some years ago. I'm told when I visit the Buddhist monstary to wear my robe especially if going to the temple. This would show the monks that I'm not a passerbyer but someone that has some affiliation with Buddhist practice.

It is not bad in itself. I just wondered why you'd make the statement when I experienced otherwise.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yeah. I read that. I'm curious then why would you say Hindus (can't remember the wording) don't openly welcome non-hindus when both the other member and I experienced otherwise?

I don't think I ever said that, but I may have, or something taken out of context. It's just that we don't go looking for non-Hindus to talk to, they come to us. At the temple I attend, we'll smile, but generally wait for them to approach us. i'm one exception, but at least half the time, people I do approach to offer answers to questions don't really want that. They're with someone else explaining, they're shy, or they're other western Hindus of a different sampradaya passing through town.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
@Vinayaka Do you kinda understand the superiority-view apart from the people who express it?

Not in a superiority way, but in a level of understanding way. Does the university professor consider himself superior to his students, or a kid in kindergarten? Does a Math teacher feel superior to a Biology teacher or an English teacher.

Just as in these examples, I think it really depends on the individual, and none of us are mind readers.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Not sure what you’re meaning. Equality is a fundamental belief of ours.
OK, and I expect that you would be an exemplar of equality, but not all Bahais were when I used to meet them.

In about 1990 an LSA chairman and very influential UK Bahai instructed a friend of mine to carry out electrical works at his home.
After the work was completed I happened to take my Bahai wife to a Bahai function at his home.
When he saw me he spoke about the work that my friend carried out in front of a large group of Bahais.
He told us all that my friend, this tradesman should never have carried out the work because he should have been retired by his age, and that there should be constraints against old persons using ladders, fitting electrical products and even working by that age. He pointed out that if a man had not been able to retire by that age that he could not have been very competent at his work.

In the UK, and under UK legislation every sentence that this Bahai chairman spoke was a tort and a disgrace against our Equality values and laws. Just imagine that man, who once held a massively senior position in commerce and industry, if he would be sitting on the UHJ...?

I never forgot that incident, and it reminds me to judge people by their actions rather than their claims. That man's words amounted to an action.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I can see the link, can you now?

If not what about this?



Regards Tony
I don't suppose this was done by any one of the "infallible" ones, so is this considered absolutely authoritative?

One question: Rev 11:3 the 2 witnesses prophecy for the 1260 days. After they are finished with their testimony 11:9, they are killed and left in the street for 3 1/2 days. 11:11, they come back to life. And in 11:8 it says the city where they will lay in the street is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

What is that all about?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Well, they do, in my opinion. They're contradictory at times. But you're free to disagree, obviously. You say you respect all religions, and then tell us we're wrong. You won't see that as a contradiction, but I do.

Since this applies to what happened in a small corner of Iran 200 odd years ago ....

Some days I don't think you read what you wrote. Do you even realise what what you stated is that the Baha'i' are right and the rest of us are blind? How insulting is that! To think that you also claim you want to help with unity or co-operation this planet? It certainly isn't helping to call all of us blind

That's nice and simple.

From all the Baha'i's I have known or met I see none that see they have no more to find and thus still blind and many thoughts still lacking clarity.

I would ask have you both found all Knowledge?

I would ask do you think you have found all that is right?

If not then we are all the same. We are Blind to most Truth, we are wrong in thought many times.

I guess the question is and it appears what this life offers us, is how much of self are we willing to give to find all that is not of self.

What I have found when exploring Writings attributed to the Great Beings, is that they all guide us to a greater knowledge that is above this world, universe and time.

It is to each if us to consider do we explore all of this in greater earnest, or do we stay routinely to what we already know.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes, that is the Baha'i belief. Not fact. Not one I share.
Too many questions with LH's statement of the religion revolving around the manifestation. But first, before the Baha'i Faith came around, who ever called these men "manifestations"? But anyway, this again makes it difficult to see the truth in this. Who was the manifestation that Hinduism revolved around?

I don't understand how they can say any religion ever revolved around Adam, Noah, or Abraham? Even with Moses, the whole point of Judaism is their God, YHWH. The religion revolved around the God's Law.

But they can't get rid of those guys, especially Adam, because they call that whole time period the "Adamic" cycle. And if they did get rid of all of them, they'd have a manifestation-less religion going on without a manifestation until Moses came along.

I remember way back, a long time ago, I asked them how the cycles of Hinduism fit in. "The Kali Yuga began approximately five thousand years ago, and it has a duration of 432,000 years, leaving us with 427,000 years until the end of the present age." Somehow, they did.
 
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