Indeed.
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How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Indeed.
What do you mean by 'we'?
Hmm. Nice. Yeah, I see unity differently than how you describe it. Words like collaboration or working together by definition of diversity makes more sense. When I read Bahaullah's words, or try to read them, I see more working together but he uses unity so that trips me up. If he didn't want to unify revealed manifestations than I can see your view. Since he does want to take out differences which is diversity, I don't see how your view matches his.
I think your view is more healthy than Bahaullah's. I know words in one language does not translate 100% well in another language. So, like many people, we probably go off our own interpretation of scripture since we don't know the original language of the people who wrote it. Which there is nothing wrong with that, really. It's personalizing your faith to make it more intimate and a way you understand.
I agree with your definition outside the manifestations part.
The Word differences has two distinctly different dictionary definitions.
1. The quality or condition of being unlike or dissimilar.
2. A disagreement or controversy: Let's settle our differences.
The first definition is what we believe in.
The second condition which includes wars and bloodshed is the differences Baha’u’llah seeks to resolve
All human beings.
So you mean the individual this lifetime ego/identity, the person known here as loverofhumanity. Well that's a temporary thing. From a Hindu POV, when that physical body dies, it is kaput. So that 'we' isn't an emanation of Siva, but part of the dance called maya. That's not who we are, it's illusion.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was listening to a Dhamma talk on that article's site. They have hundreds of talks. The abbot said we have to learn about death in order to live. It was an interesting perspective that a lot of us religious and not feel we are in someway going to live forever. She said that we need to be comfortable with death as The Buddha was. After many rebirths, he actually died.
The problem in this thread is that the first definition has the word unity to bahai which by definition unity is the opposite. While we can work together for world peace, if christians want people to come to christ, bahai (as mentioned a,ready by bahai) want people to recognize manifestations, and say islam want people to come directly to god, this in some people head causes confusion not peace.
In converts heads it leads to the second definiting because the first is seen as surface level differences with one source. Its literally indoctrination for X person to believe in something greater than he. Maybe by obligation or by need but its an illusion for greater-than political religions to come by choice. People have revelations that bring them to god, some A lot of which they feel is out of their control.
If not you can walk away and believe god does not exist.
I rather say differences do not unify us. Differences make us unique. That is why The Buddha, krishna, and zoarastar does not point tonthe god of abraham. Their orgin is not all from a creator.
Differencrs both are not a good word for what bahai describes. It is by definition unification regardless of how diverse people are.
If not there would be no bahai. Only humanity.
Sen McGlinn
Member
I see it differently
In the Bahai religion, recognizing a "Manifestation of God" comes first. That belief is part of the Bahai path, which also includes fasting, prayers, fellowship without prejudice, working for peace and so on. I would NOT argue that everyone, regardless of what path they are on, should recognize a "Manifestation of God." The term "manifestation" is quite specific to Bahai theology, and the theory and practice of coming to God through a Manifestation is the Bahai way. I would not argue that everyone should give up alcohol either - this is part of the Bahai path, but wine in the communion is part of the Christian path (Methodists excepted).
IN short, I do not think it makes sense to take bits out of one religion or practice, and make them universal goods. A religion is an "ecosystem" of symbols and terms, beliefs, practices, goals and so forth, and the meaningfulness of each part has to be sought in that context, not extrapolated as universal.
What we need to work together as a global community and in our villages and towns, is that each *in his/her own way* finds grounds to respect others, deal fairly with them, support those who need support most, and so on. One may start with the universal compassion of the Buddha, another with Christ's words in Matthew 25: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." A Bahai might begin with "the oneness of the human race" and all that implies.
To put that in another way, that leaves religion out : to live in the world together we need to show the same virtues, but not to have the same values. Diversity of values is socially useful, because it gives society parallax vision and a diverse "gene pool" for dealing with changes. It doesnt matter where we get the virtues from, whether it be philosophy or an ethnic or religious community, but it does matter that most people are honest most of the time, that most people act in solidarity with others who are not like them, and so on.
And yes, there is only humanity. And I am a Bahai.
We can not and never will be able to define God.
The way it explained in the Baha'i Writings is that we know of God by the Attributes. The giver of the Attributes are the Mesengers. Thus to us they are all of God we can know.
From these thoughts I have concluded that is why Krishna is seen as God and Christ is seen as God by those that choose to do so.
How has the Buddha explained virtues?
Regards Tony
I would offer we see this world of a fraction of our lifetime. Our lifetime is eternity. Our Soul is blind to this if our worldly self allows it to be so or our deeds in this life make it so.
Regards Tony
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Oh. That's why. Many religions have and maybe share virtues. If virtues are all you have to understand god, of course you'd see god in religions that have these virtues.
It goes beyond virtues. You'd have to go deeper than compassion and love. You literally have to experience these various religions to understand the difference between compassion of a Buddhist and compassion of a Christian. Like Vinayaka was saying, you literally have to experience what it is to be a Hindu; no one can tell you. So, virtues is not enough.
The Buddha calls virtues the Five Spiritual Faculties. (This is a commentary essay) They are faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Of course these virtues are not unique to the Buddhist religion. They are just words so anyone can find connections between them from one faith to another.
What then in Buddhism are the objects of faith? They are essentially four: (1) the belief in karma and rebirth; (2) the acceptance of the basic teachings about the nature of reality, such as conditioned co-production, emptiness, etc.; (3) confidence in the "Three Refuges," the Buddha, the Dharma and the Order; and (4) a belief in the efficacy of the prescribed practices, and in Nirvana as the final way out of our difficulties. I shall say more about them when I have dealt with the other aspects of faith.
The five faculties are specific to gaining enlightenment by ending rebirth. They are specific to the eight-fold path and how to understand in the Buddhist point of view the four noble truths.
For example, the first noble truth is there is suffering. Yes, everyone knows this. It's an all around trait. In Buddhism, suffering is defined by the process of life's cycle and rebirths. In Christianity, it's specific to sacrifice. Both know the word, but to different definitions of it.
Same as virtues. The Buddhist view of wisdom is understanding death and the nature of rebirth to put it very simple. The wisdom in Christianity is to experience (not specific to understanding) the life, death, and resurrection of christ.
I cannot experience christian wisdom because I am not taking the sacraments. I can only understand wisdom from The Buddha because I don't need to jump hoops in believing because it is common sense. I cannot experience Bahai wisdom because I know that Krishna's virtues are 100 percent different than Christ virtues. Dharmic view from a convert is still totally different than a Abrahamic view. I honestly don't know which Bahai fall into since abrahamic is specific to three faiths only.
Here is another more specific explanation of virtues in Buddhism.
I can't stop you from finding similarities based on virtues. I can, though, suggest looking more deeply into other faiths beyond their scriptures and commentaries.
We would agree that this body and this world is the Illusion. The Soul is given by God at Conception. It is not attached to this body, it is connected by mind.
The Illusion is thrown off when we connect mind with with the Spirit of Faith with what is from God.
Thus from your passage I would see we all do the dance of maya (Illusion?)with Siva (Destruction?), Siva I see it is our own worldly self, until we use Mind with the Spirit of Faith, to connect with our highr self, that of the self of God.
Regards Tony
Consider we have a natural Disaster and many millions are killed. All around the world many people of many faiths and of no Faith pitch in and work to help all the injured in many virtuous ways... etc.
Do you think it matters what lable you have called yourself in this example? Is any one deeper than another?
Sorry have to go, the work day starts.
Regards Tony
Yes, the Abrahamic heaven is eternity. Very different that what I was speaking about, but the commonality is that this single lifetime doesn't mean all that much. More for Abrahamics than for Dharmics though. We (souls not egos) believe we get many chances to correct the mistakes caused by ignorance.
The Hindu view of conception is that a new physical body is being created for a soul that already exists to find, and inhabit, much like changing clothing. In this case the clothing is a living moving body with form.
Siva's dance, in Hinduism, is just the eternal dance, encompassing all 3 powers associated with it ... emanation, sustaining, and dissolution. Siva, for Saivites, isn't just the dissolution aspect. Of course it's been handy for the anti-Hindu crowd that dissolution has been incorrectly translated as destruction. Makes it far easy for them to attach a negative emotion to their criticisms.
We see man's consciousness existing in 3 realms ... instinctive, intellectual , and spiritual. The goal is to try to move awareness into the third one, and use the first two as tools, not as places to linger for long.
(Tony, a person cannot say 'we agree' in a discussion, unless both sides are clear about it. The correct terminology would be 'I agree with you.')
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Yes we discussed this earlier on.
We beleive the many chances are this world and we face them every moment of every day. I see in my life to date, many births and many deaths.
I see that depending on the limbs of virtue we have gained here, is what state we move on and then what can be possible for us in the worlds to come.
You know we wish you well in your journey.
Regards Tony
I say we, as the world as an Illusion is strong in the Baha'i Writings. This is one reference by Abdul'baha;
THIS WORLD A MIRAGE
"...O beloved of God! Know ye that the world is like unto a mirage which the thirsty one thinks to be water; its water is a vapor; its mercy a difficulty; its repose hardship and ordeal; leave it to its people and turn unto the Kingdom of your Lord the Merciful....."
Regards Tony
Again, Tony, who is this 'we' you are using. Is it we Baha'i', we humanity, we, you and I? It is unclear without the specific. Please consider not using the word 'we' without adding a specific.
This is clearly not the same view as Hindus have. This life is one life alone, not many. Yes, certain souls have more experiences of a more intense nature within an individual lifetime, but that has to do with the evolution of the soul, not the nature of reincarnation as Hindus view it.
It is clear from past discussion that Baha'i' and Hindu understandings of the soul, reincarnation, what happens after we die etc. are very different. I don't really want to go through that discussion again.
Once again I have no idea what it is you're trying to say.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
It does matter. The reason religious people help is because of their religion. Why be bahai if you can have virtues of any religion? Isnt being bahai contradicting the fact bahaullah is telling you there are no differences between us?
What do you define as a label to others that bahai dont place on themselves?
Letting everyone know who you are certainly matters to some people, else they wouldn't throw the label in front of the word 'charity'. It's often used as a form of advertising, sadly.