How are these Great Beings explained?

[siti]

contd from How are these Great Beings explained?


Compulsory education for all, both materially and spiritual. Such knowledge is as wings to the spirit of man.

“At the outset of every endeavor, it is incumbent to look to the end of it. Of all the arts and sciences, set the children to studying those which will result in advantage to man, will ensure his progress and elevate his rank. Thus the noisome odors of lawlessness will be dispelled…”- Baha’u’llah, Lawh-i-Maqsud (1882)

“To train and educate the rising generation will at all times be the first object of society, to which every other will be subordinate.” – Robert Owen, The Social System — Constitution, Laws, and Regulations of a Community (1826)

“It is therefore, the interest of all, that every one, from birth, should be well educated, physically and mentally, that society may be improved in its character, — that everyone should be beneficially employed, physically and mentally, that the greatest amount of wealth may be created, and knowledge attained, — that everyone should be placed in the midst of those external circumstances that will produce the greatest number of pleasurable sensations, through the longest life, that man may be made truly intelligent, moral and happy, and be thus prepared to enter upon the coming Millennium.” – Robert Owen, A Development of the Principles & Plans on which to establish self-supporting Home Colonies (1841)

A common universal language

“His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh wrote about this international language more than forty years ago. He says that as long as an international language is not adopted, complete union between the various sections of the world will be unrealized, for we observe that misunderstandings keep people from mutual association, and these misunderstandings will not be dispelled except through an international auxiliary language.” – Abdu’l Baha, in a speech at an Esperanto banquet in Paris, 1913.

In 1668 (more than 200 years before Baha’u’llah wrote about it) a clergyman by the name of John Wilkins had, at the behest of fellow members of the Royal Society, published An Essay Towards a Real Character and a Philosophical Language in which he proposed a universal language that he hoped would “Besides the most obvious advantage which would ensue, of facilitating mutual commerce amongst the several nations of the world, and the improving of natural knowledge; it would likewise very much conduce to the spreading of religion…likewise contribute much to the clearing of our modern differences in religion”

On the occasion of opening the Institute for the Formation of Character (as he called his School) in 1816, Robert Owen looked forward to a time “when there shall be but one language and one nation; and when fear of want or of any evil among men shall be known no more.”

The establishment of a supreme international tribunal and cooperation between all nations and peoples for the betterment of the world…

…and…

An international court of arbitration

I have discussed this briefly earlier. The ancient Greeks had practiced international arbitration centuries earlier – perhaps as early as the 6th or 7th centuries BCE.

“There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, - that is by the union and co-operation of ALL for the benefit of EACH.

Union and co-operation in war obviously increase the power of the individual a thousand fold. Is there the shadow of a reason why they should not produce equal effects in peace; why the principle of co-operation should not give to men the same superior powers, and advantages, (and much greater) in the creation, preservation, distribution and enjoyment of wealth?” Robert Owen, The Social System, (1826)

Epistles that address Kings and rulers of the earth

In 1841, Robert Owen wrote a pamphlet in which he addresses the Governments of Great Britain, Austria, Russia, France, Prussia and the United States of America as follows: “The Supreme Power of the Universe has, now, placed the sovereignty of the earth for a time, at your united disposl. To you, is given the High and Mighty trust, in this your day of power, to effect, by your union, wisely directed, the greatest good that human agency has ever attained for man. You have now, at your control, the means, in the most abundant superfluity, to give such direction to the industry, skill, and mental faculties of the human race, that they shall, speedily, fertilize and beautify the earth; and greatly to improve the character and condition of the present generation; and form all its inhabitants of the succeeding generations, to be useful, healthy, intelligent, essentially good, wise and happy”

I have already quoted a couple of excerpts from the rest of this pamphlet and other quotes from Owen that show the nature of the counsel he offered to the “rulers of the earth” decades before Baha’u’llah wrote anything. Was Owen divinely inspired?

Religion identified as the basis of true civilisation and its necessity to maintain order and tranquility in the world

In this case, Abdu’l Baha himself attests to the fact that this ‘identification’ of religion as the basis of true civilization had been made a very long time before it was adopted as a Baha’I principle: ‘A Greek philosopher living in the days of the youth of Christianity, being full of the Christian element, though not a professing Christian, wrote thus: “It is my belief that religion is the very foundation of true civilization.”’ – Abdu’l Baha, Paris Talks (1912)

Robert Owen (who I have focussed on quite a bit in these responses) did not profess to be a religious leader, but despite his usual designation in history as the “Father of British Socialism”, he did have this to say (in 1800) on the topic of religion: “As there are a very great variety of religious sects in the world (and which are probably adapted to different constitutions under different circumstances, seeing there are many good and conscientious characters in each), it is particularly recommended, as a means of uniting the inhabitants of the village into one family, that while each faithfully adheres to the principles which he most approves, at the same time all shall think charitably of their neighbours respecting their religious opinions, and not presumptuously suppose that theirs alone are right.”

And by 1840, he seemed to have remained of a similar opinion as he wrote among his rules for a “rational system of society”: “But all, of every religion, shall have equal right to express their opinions respecting the great Incomprehensible Power which moves the atom and controls the universe; and to worship that power under any form or in any manner agreeable to their consciences – not interfering with others.”

Reduction of armaments to the extent neccesary to protect one's territories and all nations jointly disposing of weapons of mass destruction

Well – swords into ploughshares – that certainly wasn’t a new idea in 19th century and – in keeping with a fair bit of my response so far, I can report that Robert Owen also hoped for a future when international cooperation and unity would remove the need for weapons of any kind:

“…such is my confidence in the truth of the principles on which the system tam about to introduce is founded, that I hesitate not to assert their power heartily to incline all men to say, “This system is assuredly true, and therefore eminently calculated to realize those invaluable precepts of the Gospel—universal charity, goodwill, and peace among men. Hitherto we must have been trained in error; and we hail it as the harbinger of that period when our swords shall be turned into ploughshares, and our spears into pruning-hooks; when universal love and benevolence shall prevail; when there shall be but one language and one nation; and when fear of want or of any evil among men shall be known no more.” – Robert Owen, Address the Inhabitants of New Lanark, 1816 (my bold)

Humans have probably harboured this dream for as long as we have been a species, but in the modern world, the first chemical weapons treaty was the Strasbourg Agreement of 1675 between France and the Vatican. Admittedly not much genuine progress was made between then and the Geneva Convention but it has never been off the agenda entirely either. So neither the desirability nor the practice of disarmament were new in the 19th century.
---
I was going to write to be continued again but I think I'm getting a bit bored with this now and I'm sure anyone else who has had the misfortune to actually read them is too.

I think I'll close there as most of the non-religious aspects are covered and its abundantly clear that almost all of them were far from new ideas even at the time of Baha'u'llah's youth. Whether or not he had access to writings about these things is not the point. The point is the ideas were already well-established in either ancient, medieval or early modern thought. These notions are not the sign of divine inspiration but the signs of a maturing humanity - a maturing secular humanistic worldview in which the inherent value of each individual human life, regardless of ethnicity, creed or colour, was (is) becoming increasingly important in guiding the progress of nations and of the global human family. Long may that trend continue - with or without religion. As Abdu'l Baha put it "If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it". History will ultimately judge the matter - but unless we manage to somehow incorporate the age-old humanistic principles that are so strikingly similar to the "new" revelations of Baha'u'llah and divest ourselves of the need to look to "divinely constituted" religious authority to determine what we should think about reality, I'm not sure religion can make it as a long term strategy for social cohesion on a global scale.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh. That's why. Many religions have and maybe share virtues. If virtues are all you have to understand god, of course you'd see god in religions that have these virtues.

It goes beyond virtues. You'd have to go deeper than compassion and love. You literally have to experience these various religions to understand the difference between compassion of a Buddhist and compassion of a Christian. Like Vinayaka was saying, you literally have to experience what it is to be a Hindu; no one can tell you. So, virtues is not enough.

The Buddha calls virtues the Five Spiritual Faculties. (This is a commentary essay) They are faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Of course these virtues are not unique to the Buddhist religion. They are just words so anyone can find connections between them from one faith to another.

What then in Buddhism are the objects of faith? They are essentially four: (1) the belief in karma and rebirth; (2) the acceptance of the basic teachings about the nature of reality, such as conditioned co-production, emptiness, etc.; (3) confidence in the "Three Refuges," the Buddha, the Dharma and the Order; and (4) a belief in the efficacy of the prescribed practices, and in Nirvana as the final way out of our difficulties. I shall say more about them when I have dealt with the other aspects of faith.
​

The five faculties are specific to gaining enlightenment by ending rebirth. They are specific to the eight-fold path and how to understand in the Buddhist point of view the four noble truths.

For example, the first noble truth is there is suffering. Yes, everyone knows this. It's an all around trait. In Buddhism, suffering is defined by the process of life's cycle and rebirths. In Christianity, it's specific to sacrifice. Both know the word, but to different definitions of it.

Same as virtues. The Buddhist view of wisdom is understanding death and the nature of rebirth to put it very simple. The wisdom in Christianity is to experience (not specific to understanding) the life, death, and resurrection of christ.

I cannot experience christian wisdom because I am not taking the sacraments. I can only understand wisdom from The Buddha because I don't need to jump hoops in believing because it is common sense. I cannot experience Bahai wisdom because I know that Krishna's virtues are 100 percent different than Christ virtues. Dharmic view from a convert is still totally different than a Abrahamic view. I honestly don't know which Bahai fall into since abrahamic is specific to three faiths only.

Here is another more specific explanation of virtues in Buddhism.

I can't stop you from finding similarities based on virtues. I can, though, suggest looking more deeply into other faiths beyond their scriptures and commentaries.

Hi Carlita. Yes I think I am beginning to see what you mean. I’ve experience Catholicism and Baha’i Mysticism for a better word and I found them both beautiful but different.

The feeling I get at a Buddhist monastery and I stayed at many in Burma and Hindu temples in India, the atmosphere and ‘feeling’ is so beautiful and uplifting but different to Baha’i. All these experiences are valid and legitimate and although some I can’t feel deeply as I haven’t been born into that culture, yet still I can see to some small extent with my very limited vision, how the followers of each Faith love their religion so passionately.

Some of my most treasured and fondest memories were visiting the places of worship of other Faiths other than my own. Bahá’í is beautiful but so is Buddhism and Christianity and Hinduism what little I have experienced.

I would always want to see Churches and pagodas and Hindu temples. Imagine if I served you the same dish every time you visited? I would spoil you with a large variety of foods instead.

 

[loverofhumanity]

contd from How are these Great Beings explained?


Compulsory education for all, both materially and spiritual. Such knowledge is as wings to the spirit of man.

“At the outset of every endeavor, it is incumbent to look to the end of it. Of all the arts and sciences, set the children to studying those which will result in advantage to man, will ensure his progress and elevate his rank. Thus the noisome odors of lawlessness will be dispelled…”- Baha’u’llah, Lawh-i-Maqsud (1882)

“To train and educate the rising generation will at all times be the first object of society, to which every other will be subordinate.” – Robert Owen, The Social System — Constitution, Laws, and Regulations of a Community (1826)

“It is therefore, the interest of all, that every one, from birth, should be well educated, physically and mentally, that society may be improved in its character, — that everyone should be beneficially employed, physically and mentally, that the greatest amount of wealth may be created, and knowledge attained, — that everyone should be placed in the midst of those external circumstances that will produce the greatest number of pleasurable sensations, through the longest life, that man may be made truly intelligent, moral and happy, and be thus prepared to enter upon the coming Millennium.” – Robert Owen, A Development of the Principles & Plans on which to establish self-supporting Home Colonies (1841)

A common universal language

“His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh wrote about this international language more than forty years ago. He says that as long as an international language is not adopted, complete union between the various sections of the world will be unrealized, for we observe that misunderstandings keep people from mutual association, and these misunderstandings will not be dispelled except through an international auxiliary language.” – Abdu’l Baha, in a speech at an Esperanto banquet in Paris, 1913.

In 1668 (more than 200 years before Baha’u’llah wrote about it) a clergyman by the name of John Wilkins had, at the behest of fellow members of the Royal Society, published An Essay Towards a Real Character and a Philosophical Language in which he proposed a universal language that he hoped would “Besides the most obvious advantage which would ensue, of facilitating mutual commerce amongst the several nations of the world, and the improving of natural knowledge; it would likewise very much conduce to the spreading of religion…likewise contribute much to the clearing of our modern differences in religion”

On the occasion of opening the Institute for the Formation of Character (as he called his School) in 1816, Robert Owen looked forward to a time “when there shall be but one language and one nation; and when fear of want or of any evil among men shall be known no more.”

The establishment of a supreme international tribunal and cooperation between all nations and peoples for the betterment of the world…

…and…

An international court of arbitration

I have discussed this briefly earlier. The ancient Greeks had practiced international arbitration centuries earlier – perhaps as early as the 6th or 7th centuries BCE.

“There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, - that is by the union and co-operation of ALL for the benefit of EACH.

Union and co-operation in war obviously increase the power of the individual a thousand fold. Is there the shadow of a reason why they should not produce equal effects in peace; why the principle of co-operation should not give to men the same superior powers, and advantages, (and much greater) in the creation, preservation, distribution and enjoyment of wealth?” Robert Owen, The Social System, (1826)

Epistles that address Kings and rulers of the earth

In 1841, Robert Owen wrote a pamphlet in which he addresses the Governments of Great Britain, Austria, Russia, France, Prussia and the United States of America as follows: “The Supreme Power of the Universe has, now, placed the sovereignty of the earth for a time, at your united disposl. To you, is given the High and Mighty trust, in this your day of power, to effect, by your union, wisely directed, the greatest good that human agency has ever attained for man. You have now, at your control, the means, in the most abundant superfluity, to give such direction to the industry, skill, and mental faculties of the human race, that they shall, speedily, fertilize and beautify the earth; and greatly to improve the character and condition of the present generation; and form all its inhabitants of the succeeding generations, to be useful, healthy, intelligent, essentially good, wise and happy”

I have already quoted a couple of excerpts from the rest of this pamphlet and other quotes from Owen that show the nature of the counsel he offered to the “rulers of the earth” decades before Baha’u’llah wrote anything. Was Owen divinely inspired?

Religion identified as the basis of true civilisation and its necessity to maintain order and tranquility in the world

In this case, Abdu’l Baha himself attests to the fact that this ‘identification’ of religion as the basis of true civilization had been made a very long time before it was adopted as a Baha’I principle: ‘A Greek philosopher living in the days of the youth of Christianity, being full of the Christian element, though not a professing Christian, wrote thus: “It is my belief that religion is the very foundation of true civilization.”’ – Abdu’l Baha, Paris Talks (1912)

Robert Owen (who I have focussed on quite a bit in these responses) did not profess to be a religious leader, but despite his usual designation in history as the “Father of British Socialism”, he did have this to say (in 1800) on the topic of religion: “As there are a very great variety of religious sects in the world (and which are probably adapted to different constitutions under different circumstances, seeing there are many good and conscientious characters in each), it is particularly recommended, as a means of uniting the inhabitants of the village into one family, that while each faithfully adheres to the principles which he most approves, at the same time all shall think charitably of their neighbours respecting their religious opinions, and not presumptuously suppose that theirs alone are right.”

And by 1840, he seemed to have remained of a similar opinion as he wrote among his rules for a “rational system of society”: “But all, of every religion, shall have equal right to express their opinions respecting the great Incomprehensible Power which moves the atom and controls the universe; and to worship that power under any form or in any manner agreeable to their consciences – not interfering with others.”

Reduction of armaments to the extent neccesary to protect one's territories and all nations jointly disposing of weapons of mass destruction

Well – swords into ploughshares – that certainly wasn’t a new idea in 19th century and – in keeping with a fair bit of my response so far, I can report that Robert Owen also hoped for a future when international cooperation and unity would remove the need for weapons of any kind:

“…such is my confidence in the truth of the principles on which the system tam about to introduce is founded, that I hesitate not to assert their power heartily to incline all men to say, “This system is assuredly true, and therefore eminently calculated to realize those invaluable precepts of the Gospel—universal charity, goodwill, and peace among men. Hitherto we must have been trained in error; and we hail it as the harbinger of that period when our swords shall be turned into ploughshares, and our spears into pruning-hooks; when universal love and benevolence shall prevail; when there shall be but one language and one nation; and when fear of want or of any evil among men shall be known no more.” – Robert Owen, Address the Inhabitants of New Lanark, 1816 (my bold)

Humans have probably harboured this dream for as long as we have been a species, but in the modern world, the first chemical weapons treaty was the Strasbourg Agreement of 1675 between France and the Vatican. Admittedly not much genuine progress was made between then and the Geneva Convention but it has never been off the agenda entirely either. So neither the desirability nor the practice of disarmament were new in the 19th century.
---
I was going to write to be continued again but I think I'm getting a bit bored with this now and I'm sure anyone else who has had the misfortune to actually read them is too.

I think I'll close there as most of the non-religious aspects are covered and its abundantly clear that almost all of them were far from new ideas even at the time of Baha'u'llah's youth. Whether or not he had access to writings about these things is not the point. The point is the ideas were already well-established in either ancient, medieval or early modern thought. These notions are not the sign of divine inspiration but the signs of a maturing humanity - a maturing secular humanistic worldview in which the inherent value of each individual human life, regardless of ethnicity, creed or colour, was (is) becoming increasingly important in guiding the progress of nations and of the global human family. Long may that trend continue - with or without religion. As Abdu'l Baha put it "If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it". History will ultimately judge the matter - but unless we manage to somehow incorporate the age-old humanistic principles that are so strikingly similar to the "new" revelations of Baha'u'llah and divest ourselves of the need to look to "divinely constituted" religious authority to determine what we should think about reality, I'm not sure religion can make it as a long term strategy for social cohesion on a global scale.

Excellent post! Yes whether or not a religion can make these goals a long term strategy is yet to be seen but Baha’is and others are trying to make this a reality.

Any literature recommended for reading? The pamphlet to the leaders sounds interesting too. As you pointed out this is an aspiration and hope as well as project for all humanity not just us Baha’is. We are a very small and insignificant group but what if humanity does take on these wonderful ideas! The world would be a much nicer and safer place.

Thanks for all that work and it was a great insight for me so it was definitely not boring at all. I’m ready to hear more!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not sure religion can make it as a long term strategy for social cohesion on a global scale.

That is the Message of Baha'u'llah. This Dispensation to last 500,000 years.

Already 173 years have unfolded, this is but the dawn of the New Day of God and a day of God lasts in this age for at least 1000 years.

The Long Term Stratagy is on a Global scale and has been since the early to mid 1900's.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

Any literature recommended for reading? The pamphlet to the leaders sounds interesting too.

You can read the Pamphlet here - that seems like quite a good place to start. Bear in mind it was written in 1841 and Owen makes a number of points that are remarkably similar to what was claimed to be "new" in Baha'u'llah's teachings. Although I had studied Owen's writings a while back I'm afraid I didn't do him full justice earlier - especially in regard to the idea of international "cooperation between nations and peoples for the betterment of the world" - In fact, Owen specifically called for the establishment of a "Congress" of the nations of the world to "terminate their wars and all wars" and to decide amicably how best to achieve the rest of the goals he sets out in the pamphlet for a more just human society on a global scale. Of course Owen was a socialist and he makes no bones about his distaste for the private ownership of property - something that Baha'u'llah did not echo. Otherwise, I think Owen makes almost all the same points about human society that Baha'is do and he wrote them down decades before God chose to reveal them to Baha'u'llah. Anyway, read it for yourself and let us know what you think. Personally, I reckon if divine inspiration is required to explain Baha'u'llah's teachings, then Robert Owen likewise - and he might even have agreed with that himself eventually - in his eighties, he became a spiritualist and apparently among the departed souls he consulted from beyond the grave were Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. In a way, its kind of a pity that socialism took an atheistic turn after Owen's time - perfectly rational - but Owen's almost evangelistic and optimistic enthusiasm for a fairer society is refreshing to read even today. Don't you think?

 

[siti]

Already 173 years have unfolded, this is but the dawn of the New Day of God and a day of God lasts in this age for at least 1000 years.

Yep - Robert Owen would agree with you: "What ideas individuals may attach to the term "Millennium" I know not; but I know that society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, with health greatly improved, with little, if any misery, and with intelligence and happiness increased a hundredfold; and no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society from becoming universal.” - but he made that statement on New Year's Day, 1816 - almost two years before Baha'u'llah was born. So which one is the inspired prophet?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yep - Robert Owen would agree with you: "What ideas individuals may attach to the term "Millennium" I know not; but I know that society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, with health greatly improved, with little, if any misery, and with intelligence and happiness increased a hundredfold; and no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society from becoming universal.” - but he made that statement on New Year's Day, 1816 - almost two years before Baha'u'llah was born. So which one is the inspired prophet?

The key here is that it was Baha'u'llah that gave the Message, not Robert Owen.

This has been explained in the writings, sorry can not look it up at this time.

They are like the Sun, their influence starts before they are born. They are like the rising of the Sun. There are people up and about before dawn and thay get a glimpse of what is just about to rise above the horizon and benefit therefrom.

This is one talk;

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yep - Robert Owen would agree with you: "What ideas individuals may attach to the term "Millennium" I know not; but I know that society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, with health greatly improved, with little, if any misery, and with intelligence and happiness increased a hundredfold; and no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society from becoming universal.” - but he made that statement on New Year's Day, 1816 - almost two years before Baha'u'llah was born. So which one is the inspired prophet?

This is the other way to consider it;

"....That which raised these great ones above men, and by which they were able to become Teachers of the truth, was the power of the Holy Spirit. Their influence on humanity, by virtue of this mighty inspiration, was great and penetrating.

The influence of the wisest philosophers, without this Spirit Divine, has been comparatively unimportant, however extensive their learning and deep their scholarship.The unusual intellects, for instance, of Plato, Aristotle, Pliny and Socrates, have not influenced men so greatly that they have been anxious to sacrifice their lives for their teachings; whilst some of those simple men so moved humanity that thousands of men have become willing martyrs to uphold their words; for these words were inspired by the Divine Spirit of God! The prophets of Judah and Israel, Elijah, Jeremiah, Isaiah and Ezekiel, were humble men, as were also the apostles of Jesus Christ.......We understand that the Holy Spirit is the energizing factor in the life of man. Whosoever receives this power is able to influence all with whom he comes into contact.

The greatest philosophers without this Spirit are powerless, their souls lifeless, their hearts dead! Unless the Holy Spirit breathes into their souls, they can do no good work. No system of philosophy has ever been able to change the manners and customs of a people for the better. Learned philosophers, unenlightened by the Divine Spirit, have often been men of inferior morality; they have not proclaimed in their actions the reality of their beautiful phrases.

The difference between spiritual philosophers and others is shown by their lives. The Spiritual Teacher shows His belief in His own teaching, by Himself being what He recommends to others.

An humble man without learning, but filled with the Holy Spirit, is more powerful than the most nobly-born profound scholar without that inspiration. He who is educated by the Divine Spirit can, in his time, lead others to receive the same Spirit.
I pray for you that you may be informed by the life of the Divine Spirit, so that you may be the means of educating others.

The life and morals of a spiritual man are, in themselves, an education to those who know him...." Abdu'l-Baha : Paris Talks

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I would have done what you did. Not good for the daughter, (to not have meds that help her) not good for the mother. Those are sad situations. We had kids at the school I taught where we administered their meds.

You seem happy to answer a few questions about Hinduism and your faith, so thats great.

What does your particular Faith group have to say about other religions? @Carlita's links were excellent but I don't expect anyone else to come up with anything as good.

If you don't me asking, what is the significance of your RF name Vinayaka?

You are just over 10 years older than me, so i am aware of a lot of interest in Eastern religions in the 60s and 70s. The Beatles visiting India to learn TM was an examle. What influence did popular culture have on you if any?

Thank you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hi Carlita. Yes I think I am beginning to see what you mean. I’ve experience Catholicism and Baha’i Mysticism for a better word and I found them both beautiful but different.

The feeling I get at a Buddhist monastery and I stayed at many in Burma and Hindu temples in India, the atmosphere and ‘feeling’ is so beautiful and uplifting but different to Baha’i. All these experiences are valid and legitimate and although some I can’t feel deeply as I haven’t been born into that culture, yet still I can see to some small extent with my very limited vision, how the followers of each Faith love their religion so passionately.

Some of my most treasured and fondest memories were visiting the places of worship of other Faiths other than my own. Bahá’í is beautiful but so is Buddhism and Christianity and Hinduism what little I have experienced.

I would always want to see Churches and pagodas and Hindu temples. Imagine if I served you the same dish every time you visited? I would spoil you with a large variety of foods instead.

Thank you. Yeah, I visited a couple houses of worship in the states Mosque, Hindu temple, Synaguage, and of course countless domination christian churches. Not more so searching but more curiousity since I knew Id never be Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or any other denomination but catholic. The atmosphere is uplifting nonetheless.

I dont think the problem is enjoying various foods. Its being a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, and Muslim cook at the same time and offering four different meals to actual Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, and Muslim withiut being part of their religion. In Deaf culture, if I chose a name sign for myself because I feel connected by virtue of interest in sign, Id be disrespectful because its their language not mine. Im not a food person but Im sure its the same with food in multiple cultures. If a family cooks a dish in X way and you know how to cook that same meal, Im guessing that meal wouldnt be the same as the family. If you offered it to people As If it were the same while recognizing differences, thats the issue.

Its very tiny probably for bahai but not for hindu (as seen on this thread).

But its nice you recognize it nonetheless. I never talked with anyone who hasnt experienced cultural appropriation. In the states it has a lot to do with racism more so than religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

You seem happy to answer a few questions about Hinduism and your faith, so thats great.

What does your particular Faith group have to say about other religions? @Carlita's links were excellent but I don't expect anyone else to come up with anything as good.

If you don't me asking, what is the significance of your RF name Vinayaka?

You are just over 10 years older than me, so i am aware of a lot of interest in Eastern religions in the 60s and 70s. The Beatles visiting India to learn TM was an examle. What influence did popular culture have on you if any?

Thank you.

Other religions are what's needed for those souls. Siva (God) set them up so nobody is left out. Just as everyone on this planet can use material at hand (stone, brick, wood, snow, thatch, etc.) to build a home, so too is there a religion for everyone. They all work for their adherents. We do have free will, and because of shifting reincarnation patterns, (due to the 'shrinking' of the world) conversion is more likely now. People are allowed to convert on their own free will.

Here's a link: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/blog/taka/2011/09/10/how-do-hindus-view-other-religions/

We draw the line at religions advocating violence though, and we consider the act of forced conversion or evangelical activity for that purpose as violence.

Vinayaka is the first name of Ganesha in the ashtottaram (108 names) of Ganesha I use. Hindus often use names of Gods.

I don't think popular culture influenced me at all.

 

[Vinayaka]

So we are not our body that’s the illusion right? I believe we humans are soul but and the body is the chariot.

Illusion (maya) is understood differently by different schools. Often it just means 'temporal'. When the mind is functioning in that area of consciousness, it's very real, or seems very real. It is only at the deepest of mystical deaths when form becomes formless is there absolute reality. So for 99.999 % of the souls on this planet, that is our reality. In my school we use 'relative reality' for that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What does your particular Faith group have to say about other religions? @Carlita's links were excellent but I don't expect anyone else to come up with anything as good.

Are you referring to the Dalai Lama?

I see the "Dali Lama" in most Buddhists and Catholics I came across. It's a cultural thing to place people at such high importance. Spiritually, everyone has the same heart pumping and same brain thinking. Same senses and same thought patterns (we are all human, in other words). So many of us Mahayana Buddhists and probably Theravada, I don't know, see and try to see the Buddha-nature (the potential to be buddhas) in everyone.

So, you'd be a lama because of how you approach topics that other potential lamas have not yet come to that type of Bahai patience to express.

Why do abrahamics and Bahai see humans after two thousand years ago as less holy as the ones who lived near jesus day?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do abrahamics and Bahai see humans after two thousand years ago as less holy as the ones who lived near jesus day?

What makes you think that?

Every age has its diversity of peoples. Every age has its own challenges to face.

In this day it is obvious the issues we face are on a worldly scale and not confined to a specific area, country or nation.

In this day we have Materialism on a scale never before faced by humanity and in turn embraced by many peoples.

Rgards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What makes you think that?

Every age has its diversity of peoples. Every age has its own challenges to face.

In this day it is obvious the issues we face are on a worldly scale and not confined to a specific area, country or nation.

In this day we have Materialism on a scale never before faced by humanity and in turn embraced by many peoples.

Regards Tony

It's weird, though. If anyone claimed to be holy just like Christ, Muhammad, or even Baha'u'llah, what would this person have to do in order for us to believe it in 2017?

Joseph Smith was born 1838 just shy twenty thirty years of my great great grandparent's date of birth and living (according to US records from my genealogy search). 1817 was just around the corner so quick-searched Bahaullah's birth.

But you get to 1990s (or maybe it died out in World War One?) I haven't heard any people like what's written about Christ and Nichiren even.

Now, people say their chosen one will come some time X in the future. We shift every ten and twenty years and that same number shifts with us as if we want it to keep up with us. Kind of like what I heard from the Dhamma talk this morning. We don't want to die so we are attached to life this life or the next.

It is an interesting observation of many religions not just Bahai-just so happen this is a Bahai thread-but in general the past is more holy then the present. The holiness of the past shifts with us so we can keep it holy. So, there would always be a "thousand" year period until the next manifestation. Each year there will always be a "coming of a savior." (Which 1999 was one year people were buying can foods thinking their savior would come)



Tony it is hard talking with you. I address all of your posts when I get the time. When I do get the time, I stick to your topic and most of the time it's clarifying and asking questions what you are saying so I understand myself. When I do ask questions, you ignore them intentionally and it frustrates me because we are jumping topics that you don't want to talk about.

and you never ever explain why.

I can't jump topics every time we get to one you don't want to talk about. You have to use a transitional word or phrase to let others know you want to change topics and/or address that what you want to talk about before talking about it.

It helps a lot.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's weird, though. If anyone claimed to be holy just like Christ, Muhammad, or even Baha'u'llah, what would this person have to do in order for us to believe it in 2017?

They would have to have a Message from God, be and live that Message.

. 1817 was just around the corner so quick-searched Bahaullah's birth.

This is a special year, I wish I could invite you to the 200 Celebration of Baha'u'llah's Birth, there are functions all over the world. It is the 22nd of October. The Babs 198 on 21st October.

There is a movie to be released on the 18th and can be downloaded from this site on that day. Also more on the site about this.

Bicentenary of the Birth of Bahá’u’lláh

Now, people say their chosen one will come some time X in the future.

Yes, as up to Baha'u'llah we have been told in the Bahai Writings, that it was the age of Prophecy. All the past Holy Books are pointing to this day and the Message given by Baha'u'llah and the purpose was to prepare Humanity for this day. This is time X

The holiness of the past shifts with us so we can keep it holy. So, there would always be a "thousand" year period until the next manifestation.

We are told all Faith in God also goes through seasons of spring when the Message is born, the summer of the height of its influence, the autumn of its decline into mans influence and the winter that mans influence has created.

In each of these times there is a diversity if people and level of acceptance. In Summer it stands to reason there is a greater amount of spirit shown.

This is why the people that accept the Message when it is first given are very special. They have survived the winter and embraced the Sun as it dawned.

Tony it is hard talking with you.

When I do ask questions, you ignore them intentionally and it frustrates me because we are jumping topics that you don't want to talk about. and you never ever explain why.

People have told me that. I say little and usually straight to the point. My wife just slaps me around when it frustrates her (She is wonderful) All I can say sorry, not the intent.

I answer the questions that have new thoughts and not ground we have already covered and not agreed upon, I do this because of time constraints.

It is easier to talk face to face as the conversation unfolds in real time. One does not have to cover multipul points as we see in posts to forums. Some posts have dozens of questions which raise in turn a multipul of answers.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They would have to have a Message from God, be and live that Message.

Would people today believe them?
Would time period make a difference?

This is a special year, I wish I could invite you to the 200 Celebration of Baha'u'llah's Birth, there are functions all over the world. It is the 22nd of October. The Babs 198 on 21st October.

I know JW and Islam you can't walk in without being invited. I was invited to the Mosque and Hall. Is that like Bahai temples?

We are told all Faith in God also goes through seasons of spring when the Message is born, the summer of the height of its influence, the autumn of its decline into mans influence and the winter that mans influence has created.

This is different than the shift of time rather than a cycle of periods.

The holiness of the past shifts with us so we can keep it holy. So, there would always be a "thousand" year period until the next manifestation.

If you had a cloud over your hand while you're walking, the cloud being the shift of time period the gap between the holy and unholy time period (eye of the storm) and you being humanity, when you say "every thousand years" and keep walking, the cloud period of non-holiness shifts with you so that every thousand years, it will still be every thousand years without graduating to the next step. It's interesting to see this by Christians saying this is the time the savior will come and after ten or so years after, it's the next decade instead.

If it's supposed to be the next hundred years and it gets to that point, life doesn't become holy again. So, one there is a gap that humanity doesn't progress and two, if it does it is going against the laws of nature.

People have told me that. I say little and usually straight to the point. My wife just slaps me around when it frustrates her (She is wonderful) All I can say sorry, not the intent.

Yes. Have you took her words into consideration?

I answer the questions that have new thoughts and not ground we have already covered and not agreed upon, I do this because of time constraints.

Ask before you change topics. I don't bring up the same topic on purpose so you have to at least acknowledge the question and ask more about it to get a sense of if it is the same or if it is going to another point.

It's assertive conversation skills. Ask or have a transition before you switch topics or acknowledge the question (since we're online) and give a straightforward answer related to the question.

It is easier to talk face to face as the conversation unfolds in real time. One does not have to cover multipul points as we see in posts to forums. Some posts have dozens of questions which raise in turn a multipul of answers.

It would be beneficial to cover points outside your comfort zone. Since you're not interested in my point of view, I'd say still when people tell you something is up, examine what they say and ask you; it's taking a step towards self growth. I don't know what Bahaullah says about it but it definitely advice from The Buddha.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Would people today believe them?
Would time period make a difference?

Baha'u'llah is the example to answer to both those questions.

The History is accurate as it is only very recent. I met Collis Featherstone, who was appointed a Hand of the Cause in 1957 and he met Shoghi Effendi the Guardian and Grandson of Baha'u'llah.

Collis Featherstone - Wikipedia

He in turn knew people who met both Baha'u'llah and Abduld'baha and were their relatives, thus the stories are recorded and accurate History.

He passed away on His next trip abroad after visiting us.

I know JW and Islam you can't walk in without being invited. I was invited to the Mosque and Hall. Is that like Bahai temples?

All are welcome in Baha'i Houses of Worship. A lot of these events for the 200th will be in community venues and Baha'i Homes.

Yes. Have you took her words into consideration?

We Married in 1980. Its give and take . Most likely I am ADHD , my wife says I am, my son is, or so the medical profession said he was.

It would be beneficial to cover points outside your comfort zone.

How do you know I have not and I am now not?

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

An humble man without learning, but filled with the Holy Spirit, is more powerful than the most nobly-born profound scholar without that inspiration. He who is educated by the Divine Spirit can, in his time, lead others to receive the same Spirit.

Right - and by all accounts Robert Owen fits the bill of "an humble man without learning" - his formal schooling (such as it was) ended at the age of about nine and was almost certainly of shorter duration than "nobly-born" Baha'u'lah's. Then he worked variously in a drapers shop and various textile mills in Manchester, England (my own home town) becoming a mill manager at the age of 21. Throughout his youth, he (like the version of Baha'u'llah that Baha'u'llah's sister later recalled) was an avid reader but soon rejected all the religions he read about in favour of what he later called "the spirit of universal charity for the human race." Then he joined the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society where the latest scientific and philosophical ideas were discussed by some of the leading thinkers of the day (the Memoirs and Proceedings of this society was the second scientific journal - after the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society - to be published in Britain) just as Baha'u'llah (according to Abdu'l Baha's later recollection) used to spend time discussing similar matters - albeit from an entirely different angle - with the Ulama (religious scholars) in Tehran.

After all that, both came to very similar conclusions about what was in the best interests of the human race and both made some effort to encourage individuals and nations to engage in the process of establishing a new order in which fairness, justice, harmony and peace would prevail. Both projects met with limited success (at least so far). One puts their ideas down to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the other to a rationally approached "spirit of universal charity for the human race". If it was "Holy Spirit" then Robert Owen had it before Baha'u'llah was even born in which case, should he not also be hailed a "Divine Manifestation"? If it was the result of humanistic reasoning, then Baha'u'llah was a wise, but nonetheless human, religious teacher. I prefer the latter, because that, at least, is amenable to the first principle of the Baha'i faith - independent investigation of truth.

 

[Vinayaka]

Right - and by all accounts Robert Owen fits the bill of "an humble man without learning" - his formal schooling (such as it was) ended at the age of about nine and was almost certainly of shorter duration than "nobly-born" Baha'u'lah's.

I had never heard of this fellow until now, in this thread. Sounds like a very innovative thinker, well ahead of his time. Thank you.