How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

And how does this relate? My point was that that knowledge had come from within me, I probably had no clue even where India was at the time. This 'great light' lays dormant within each and everyone of us. Mystically, It's coiled at the base of the spine, under the snake known as kundalini.

Many people from the West developed an interest in Eastern religion and philosphy during the 1960s and 70s. It was a time when many Westerners became Hindus, Buddhists, and Baha'is. There was undoubtedly an outpouring of spiritual energies at the time affecting many. Some responded positively, others negatively and many were unmoved.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I've never read the old testament, nor the Koran, but from comments by I have read by those who have, they seem to be very violent books, and there are quotes of the so called leaders encouraging others to 'kill the infidels!' and worse. So cherry picking can work either way I suppose.

Is this site all lies? The Life of Muhammad

I have seen that website, because there are many anti-Islamic posters on RF and some like to add that link.

In the Gita the story of Krishna begins with Arjuna struggling with the moral dilemma as to whether fight in a war against relatives. (Please don't remind me you are a Saivite and not a Vaishnavite.)

War was an inevitable part of human history due to humanities turning away from God, and remains so sadly.

According to Baha'u'llah the best beloved of all things in the sight of God is justice and through it we can see with our own eyes and not through the eyes of others. Why not study the OT and Quran yourself rather than relying on the views of others?

 

[oldbadger]

The Bab and his laws.

Let us take a look through just some of the Bab's laws, which were passed by him within the new dispensation, 1844.
Some of these would be utterly dreadful if they should be introduced later, in a Bahai World. The link is very old and may not activate now, but I can assure you that no words have been changed. Here we go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1bism#Religious_law
Some of the new laws included changing the direction of the Qibla to the Báb's house in Shiraz, Iran and changing the calendar to a solar calendar of nineteen months and nineteen days (which became the basis of the Bahá'í calendar) and prescribing the last month as a month of fasting.[20]

Here is the foundation of the 19 day, 19 month calendar of Bahai, and the new law regarding the religious centre of all, the Bab's house!

The Báb also created a large number of rituals and rites which remained largely unpracticed.[21] Some of these rituals include the carrying of arms only in times of necessity, the obligatory sitting on chairs, the advocating of the cleanliness displayed by Christians, the non-cruel treatment of animals, the prohibition of beating children severely, the recommendation of the printing of books, even scripture and the prohibition on the study of logic or dead languages.

The bearing of arms is allowed, and the study of Logic is forbidden, so anybody discovering common sense reason could be classed as breaking the law if such a written law was enacted in a Bahai World.

[21] While some statements in the Bayan show tolerance, there are other very harsh regulations in regards to relations with non-believers. For example, non-believers are forbidden to live in five central Iranian provinces, the holy places of previous religions are to be demolished, all non-Bábí books should be destroyed, believers are not to marry or sit in the company of non-believers, and the property of non-believers can be taken from them.

Ancient religious sites could be demolished. Non-Babis could be taken from their homes. Many worrying passages there.

[21] Some further ritual include elaborate regulations regarding pilgrimage, fasting, the manufacture of rings, the use of perfume, and the washing and disposal of the dead.[21]

No legislation that controls people outside of such a religion could be acceptable, and these laws, above, lay on the statute and written after the 1844 cusp.

Comments, please..........

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, and no Babis, apart from Bahauallah whose social position had saved his life.

There were no Baha'is in that prison, only Babis including Baha'u'llah, as Baha'u'llah's mission was yet to be disclosed.

A massive insurrection had been taking place, caused by apostates, and three of the followers had even attempted to assasinate the Shah.
Compared to Insurrectionists I expect that thieves and highwaymen were not classed as so dangerous.

A few years beforehand the Muslims had exterminated many Babis. It was in this context that a failed attempt to assasinate the Shah by two Babi's took place. Baha'u'llah had nothing to do with it and had said it was better to be killed than to kill.

The Bábí Movement | What Bahá’ís Believe

Government orders Bahá’u’lláh’s arrest - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

Dreadful. If you happen to have any reports by impartial western observers, that would be of great interest.

Its difficult to access old newpaper clippings from the West on the internet, though I do recall seeing at least one.

This item is from the Encyclopaedia of Iran.

MARTYRS, BABI – Encyclopaedia Iranica

It doesn't look as if they ever intended to kill him.
They certainly never tried, nor was he dragged out like the others, to execution.

They did. The Russian government intervened on His behalf.

It looks as if Social Position and Interest was much the same as today.

By anyone stanards, becoming a prisoner and an exile is a loss of social status.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't know about the other two but since we have now strayed into the realms of dynastic succession, what about Abdu'l Baha's prediction that Shogi Effendi's heir would become the Guardian of the Baha'i faith? Shogi Effendi, of course died childless. Oops!

You have confused Adbu'l-Baha's criteria for the appointment of any future guardians in his will and testament with prophecy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No legislation that controls people outside of such a religion could be acceptable, and these laws, above, lay on the statute and written after the 1844 cusp.

Comments, please..........

The purpose of the Bab's revelation was to prepare His followers for Him whom God shall make manifest (Baha'u'llah). This was successful as most Babis recognised Baha'u'llah and became Baha'is. Only laws that Baha'u'llah endorsed would come into effect. Most of the Bab's laws were never enacted or became binding.

 

[oldbadger]

True wealth is to have Certitude.

The question shot into my mind this morning.

Question:-
Do you have Certitude?
If so, what is your certitude?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Bismarck's comments to Wilhelm II were a matter of historical record before the fall of the German Empire. But it was no great feat of prophecy to predict the fall of a kingdom in the 19th century.

Well, you brought the example, just to show that, ordinary men could also predict fall of kingdoms, and no need for a supernatural explanation. One of the examples you referred was the man who you think had predicted Fall of a Kingdom 20 years after his own death. Assuming that he really made such a concise prediction, there is no way you can use science to come up with number '20'. When we talk about science, it means, you need to provide certain mathematical formula which through certain scientific methods such as Probability, can precisely calculate that when this man dies, and how long after him, the kingdom falls. If you cannot show this, you have not shown such a thing is explainable using natural science and you did not prove no need for a supernatural explanation.
As surely you cannot come up with how one can scientifically calculate when he dies in this case, nor you can show any precise scientific way to know when the kingdom was to fall, thus you have no choice but to say this was either by chance or at best, a very good guess. Even if you say it was a good guess, there is no way to come up with an exact number of years when he dies and when kingdom falls, at best a range of years can be given.

In terms of Germany, the 18th century had seen a succession of wars fought to establish rulership over the main bits of what later became the German Empire - i.e. Prussia and Austria. The Holy Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia both fell in 1806 and a fair amount of "Germany" came under Napoleon's Confederation of the Rhine until 1813 (Battle of Leipzig) after which the German Confederation was set up in 1815. That was interrupted during the revolutions in 1848 and fell apart altogether after the Austro-Prussian war in 1866 fragmenting Germany into several Kingdoms that were brought together again in 1871 in the German Empire. It was this "Empire" (still in its infancy, being only a year or two old) that "The King of Berlin" Kaiser Wilhelm I ruled to whom Baha'u'llah sent his warning letter. The "Kingdom" he was referring to had "fallen" 3 times and "risen" 3 times in less than 70 years when he wrote that letter. It would be almost half a century before the Kingdom "fell" again in 1918.

Firstly just because a kingdom had already fallen three times is not a proof that it would fall again for good without rising ever again. Moreover, when Bahaullah made this prophecy, many of those who were enemies of Bahais made fun of this prophecy, because they did not expect that the kingdom falls. This you can investigate if you want Thus, in that time, it was not commonly known as you imagine.

The way you interpret Baha'u'llah's "prophecy" suggests that he was making predictions about the unexpected fall of well-established Kingdoms that nobody thought would ever fail and the long-term stability of wobbly monarchies that everyone else expected to collapse at any moment - but the history of the period shows that nothing could be further from the truth. The monarchs of Prussia, France and even Russia were in constant fear of invasion and war from outside and violent revolution or assassination plots from within.

By contrast, Queen Victoria's realm had been ruled by the same family for over 150 years with only a brief skirmish on British soil with a handful of Spanish troops way back in 1719 at the Battle of Glen Shiel to threaten the security of Britain's borders. Around the time of Baha'u'llah's 'prophesying', a brief outburst of republican sentiment had given way to sympathy for the monarch when the Prince of Wales (the current Queen's great-grandfather) became dangerously ill and an Irish militant waved an unloaded gun in front of her. I don't believe there was anything like the same expectation that the monarchy of Britain would fall. While the Czar of Russia feared to venture forth for fear of assassination, the complaint in Britain was that the monarch was not seen enough in public.

The rise and fall of monarchies was not an unusual event in the fractious 18th/19th century history of Europe - it was the norm. Throughout that period, Britain was an exception. Baha'u'llah was clearly no slouch when it came to interpreting the trajectory of history - he saw the trends and extrapolated - taking care not to be overly specific. He knew that kingdoms don't last forever but that some last longer than others and "prophesied" accordingly, but Napoleon III was the only one whose kingdom actually fell in his own lifetime, as had those of most of about a hundred of his predecessors as "Head of State" in the eighty-odd years between the French Revolution and the fall of the Second Empire. It was hardly a surprise.

Now it has passed about 150 years from the time of those kingdoms. Its history is well known to us now as described by many historians and its information is widely available. It is easy for you to go and do some quick readings as you have access to internet and books in your comfortable place, and come up with your theory as to why some kingdoms fell but not the Kingdom of the Queen. I can do that too and come up with my theories as well. But what you seem to miss is that at the time, no body else other than Bahaullah predicted these things, and the two examples you found from those two individuals who arguably predicted the fall of a kingdom, have done so only with regards to One kingdom, and not all the main kingdoms. Not withstanding that they were free men, living in Europe and possibly working in the field of politics, and familiar with what was going on. How is this even comparable with Bahaullah who was imprisoned and confined to a small location in a far prison, in a country far from European kingdoms? He and His companions could barely have enough food and a fair place to live. Obviously you are either not aware of His extreme difficult situation, or missing it to take it in to account in your analysis. How would His situation be comparable with our time siting in a safe place, having access to internet and an ocean of information at our finger tip to easily come up with theories? Moreover, if you had read His circumstances you would readily realize He did not spend time investigating and thinking to come up with accurate prophecies, and His Tablets had all been revealed without thinking what to write, in form of revelations. I had already mentioned this, with references to the eyewitnesses.
Now, since you firmly cling to the belief that there is no supernatural, then to explain these things, you have to come up with natural explanations. While you cannot even prove there is no supernatural to begin building you logic on it, then how can you insist that everything must have a natural explanation? Thus you make so much effort, yet you could not find anyone else who at the time, having the same situation as Bahaullah did, to have made so many prophecies that none of them failed. I know, it must be very frustrating for you.

 

[oldbadger]

There were no Baha'is in that prison, only Babis including Baha'u'llah, as Baha'u'llah's mission was yet to be disclosed.

Yes

A few years beforehand the Muslims had exterminated many Babis. It was in this context that a failed attempt to assasinate the Shah by two Babi's took place. Baha'u'llah had nothing to do with it and had said it was better to be killed than to kill.

The Bábí Movement | What Bahá’ís Believe

Don't make this look like a kind of genocide. The Babi forces had engaged in armed conflict with government forces in several serious engagements, the Bab had become a public apostate and insurrection was threatened across the whole land.
And after three Babis attempted to assassinate the Shah the level of threat became huge.

To claim the Bahauallah, a Babi, had nothing to do with supporting these people in their armed conflict cuts badly either way. Either he did not truly stand by his own or he did....... it can go wrong each way.

Of course Bahais, seeing all this as God's purpose on Earth will see it somewhat scewed.
If this happened in, say, certain States in the USA, I doubt that too many prisoners would have b taken. Today It's terrorism.

They did. The Russian government intervened on His behalf.

Vastly influential with the Turks and Mid East, and maybe good friends with Bahauallah's Father, that could have been the interest that saved his life and got him cleared out to Acre by the Turkish authorities.
I'll bet that he and his were kept there at their own expense. Much of truth and straight facts seem to be hidden in religious mist about his detention at Acre.

By anyone stanards, becoming a prisoner and an exile is a loss of social status.

He was connected to religious and political terrorism, to armed conflict involving the deaths of government troops.
He's lucky that he had any status, life or blood left.

 

[oldbadger]

The purpose of the Bab's revelation was to prepare His followers for Him whom God shall make manifest (Baha'u'llah). This was successful as most Babis recognised Baha'u'llah and became Baha'is. Only laws that Baha'u'llah endorsed would come into effect. Most of the Bab's laws were never enacted or became binding.

You cannot say that, imo.
Every legislation of the Bab's could reasonably lay on the Statutes, until the UHJ might receive Divine Guidance to enact any of it.
It has to be REPEALED absolutely to be cleared.

And why did this apostate prophet, knowing that he would not do more than introduce the Prophet, decide to make such horrific laws?
Some of them are utterly dreadful.

 

[oldbadger]

Many people from the West developed an interest in Eastern religion and philosphy during the 1960s and 70s. It was a time when many Westerners became Hindus, Buddhists, and Baha'is. There was undoubtedly an outpouring of spiritual energies at the time affecting many. Some responded positively, others negatively and many were unmoved.

Yes.
At that time many young were seeking a Universal Unity of freedom, in thought, body and spirit and Bahai did look as if it was going to fill that 'destination' for so many. It seemed to be sold to some extent like that.
The tough parts came several years later, with enrolment and follower ID, with the new knowledge about prejudices not previously even thought of.

The Universal Unitarians rose out of the ashes of those times, I think.

 

[oldbadger]

You have confused Adbu'l-Baha's criteria for the appointment of any future guardians in his will and testament with prophecy.

The above sent to another............
Fair enough, but all of this is claimed to have been guided perfectly by God, and so for such upheavals to occur would seem strange to the impartial observer.

The whole inheritance thing was and has been a bit of a mess. Now that fits perfectly with my Great Being, who exists in Chaos..... the only sure 'thing' being the immediate cutting edge of time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Me too! Do you have any idea where I might find one?

Atheism is not smart really. In comparison to young creationalism and others beliefs such as literally splitting moon, or rising the dead is smart. For the fact that such beliefs to most of people day by day appear more and more illogical. But does it really give all answers? Not that I see. At least not with regards to the forgoing discussions.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Don't make this look like a kind of genocide. .

Have you not read they poured hot water into the mouth of the children and infants of the Bab'is? Or the accounts that they cut the Bab'is heads, and put fire and candles in their bodies? These things are mentioned by such historians who were not Bab'i such as Edward Brawn, thus what excuse is there to justify such acts?

 

[oldbadger]

Have you not read they poured hot water into the mouth of the children and infants of the Bab'is? Or the accounts that they cut the Bab'is heads, and put fire and candles in their bodies? These things are mentioned by such historians who were not Bab'i such as Edward Brawn, thus what excuse is there to justify such acts?

I don't know who Edward Brawn was, nor whether he was a witness.

What we have to remember here is that such stories can be propaganda, and impartial observers will bear that in mind because they know just how untrustworthy some reports can be. That certainly was not mentioned in the links supplied by another member.

We also have to remember that the Babis were armed fighters, apostates against that country's own God, and insurrectionists against that country's government. They killed many government forces in the battles. They were not innocent passive sheep going to their deaths.

And when the Shah's very life was threatened, that was that.

Just imagine what would happen in, say, a US State today if such an insurrection occured, with up to 20,000 terrorists and insurgents going out to fight and kill?

It's probably not the kind of viewpoint that a Bahai of Certitude could face, because, of course, God wasis, has to be on the side of Bahai. But where was God when all this happened, eh?

 

[siti]

You have confused Adbu'l-Baha's criteria for the appointment of any future guardians in his will and testament with prophecy.

Not me - Abdu'l Baha did that - I'm just reading his words as written in his Will and Testament (page 11 - my emphasis):

"He [referring to Shogi Effendi] is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents."

You can interpret it differently if you like, but that is what it says.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know who Edward Brawn was, nor whether he was a witness.

What we have to remember here is that such stories can be propaganda, and impartial observers will bear that in mind because they know just how untrustworthy some reports can be. That certainly was not mentioned in the links supplied by another member.

We also have to remember that the Babis were armed fighters, apostates against that country's own God, and insurrectionists against that country's government. They killed many government forces in the battles. They were not innocent passive sheep going to their deaths.

And when the Shah's very life was threatened, that was that.

Just imagine what would happen in, say, a US State today if such an insurrection occured, with up to 20,000 terrorists and insurgents going out to fight and kill?

It's probably not the kind of viewpoint that a Bahai of Certitude could face, because, of course, God wasis, has to be on the side of Bahai. But where was God when all this happened, eh?

One eye witness account;

“Tihran, August 29, 1852. Dear Friend, My last letter of the 20th inst. mentioned the attempt on the King. I will now communicate to you the result of the interrogation to which the two criminals were subjected. In spite of the terrible tortures inflicted, the examination extorted no comprehensive confession; the lips of the fanatics remained closed, even when by means of red-hot pincers and limb-rending screws they sought to discover the chief conspirator…. But follow me, my friend, you who lay claim to a heart and European ethics, follow me to the unhappy ones who, with gouged-out eyes, must eat, on the scene of the deed, without any sauce, their own amputated ears; or whose teeth are torn out with inhuman violence by the hand of the executioner; or whose bare skulls are simply crushed by blows from a hammer; or where the bazar is illuminated with unhappy victims, because on right and left the people dig deep holes in their breasts and shoulders and insert burning wicks in the wounds. I saw some dragged in chains through the bazar preceded by a military band, in whom these wicks had burned so deep that now the fat flickered convulsively in the wound like a newly-extinguished lamp. Not seldom it happens that the unwearying ingenuity of the Orientals leads to fresh tortures. They will skin the soles of the Bábí’s feet, soak the wounds in boiling oil, shoe the foot like the hoof of a horse, and compel the victim to run. No cry escaped from the victim’s breast; the torment is endured in dark silence by the numbed sensation of the fanatic; now he must run; the body cannot endure what the soul has endured; he falls. Give him the coup de grace! Put him out of his pain! No! The executioner swings the whip, and — I myself have had to witness it — the unhappy victim of hundredfold tortures and runs! This is the beginning of the end. As for the end itself, they hang the scorched and perforated bodies by their hands and feet to a tree head downwards, and now every Persian may try his marksmanship to heart’s content from a fixed but not too proximate distance on the noble quarry placed at his disposal. I saw corpses torn by nearly 150 bullets…. When I read over again what I have written I am overcome by the thought that those who are with you in our dearly beloved Austria may doubt the full truth of the picture, and accuse me of exaggeration. Would to God that I had not lived to see it! But by the duties of my profession I was unhappily often, only too often, a witness of these abominations. At present I never leave my house, in order not to meet with fresh scenes of horror. After their death the Bábís are hacked in two and either nailed to the city gate, or cast out into the plain as food for the dogs and jackals. Thus the punishment extends even beyond the limits which bound this bitter world, for Musulmans who are not buried have no right to enter the Prophet’s Paradise. Since my whole soul revolts against such infamy, against such abominations as recent times, according to the judgment of all, present, I will no longer maintain my connection with the scene of such crimes.” (He goes on to say that he has already asked for his discharge, but has not yet received an answer.) (E. G. Browne’s “Materials for the Study of the Bábí Religion,” pp. 267-71)

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

there is no way you can use science to come up with number '20'...

Dear @InvestigateTruth - you seem to have lost the plot entirely. What on earth do natural science and math have to do with anything? Bismarck was a key stabilizing influence within the German Empire from its inception just as Frederick the Great had been in the Kingdom of Prussia. He simply drew a comparison and it happened to be correct - once his influence was gone the Empire disintegrated. He didn't need science or math to work that out - just ordinary human intuition. And Baha'u'llah was blessed with an intuitive sense of how the future might unfold - but it only works so far ahead and much better with situations you actually know about. Baha'u'llah had intimate knowledge of French involvement in the Crimea through his relationship with French Ambassador's secretary who was Baha'u'lla's Brother-in-Law. From the same source he would have known about the tensions between France and Prussia. His comment about the banks of the Rhine "covered with gore" almost certainly refers to the Franco-Prussian conflict that saw the downfall of Napoleon III's empire - but that had already happened when he wrote about it in 1873. It was Abdu'l Baha who later interpreted it as prophetic of additional conflict to face the German Empire. But again by then Germany and her allies were already on a collision course with France, Britain and Russia - geez its all in the history books - and Abdu'l Baha was in Paris for goodness sake - he could hardly have failed to notice the potential for further conflict with Germany at that point.

But what you seem to miss is that at the time, no body else other than Bahaullah predicted these things, and the two examples you found from those two individuals who arguably predicted the fall of a kingdom, have done so only with regards to One kingdom, and not all the main kingdoms. Not withstanding that they were free men, living in Europe and possibly working in the field of politics, and familiar with what was going on. How is this even comparable with Bahaullah who was imprisoned and confined to a small location in a far prison, in a country far from European kingdoms?

Er - no but it compares a little more closely with someone who spent several moths in the home of the secretary to the French Ambassador - who just happened to be his brother-in-law. What would have been more remarkable would have been if Baha'u'llah had predicted the famine that killed 10 per cent of the population of Northern China in the 1870s or the fall of the Qing dynasty in 1912 and the rise and fall of the Japanese Empire. Maybe even stretching the limits of his prophetic abilities, perhaps he could have predicted the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 or the end of the British Empire when Hong Kong was handed back to China in 1997. He didn't mention any of these as far as I know. Were China and Japan not among "all the main kingdoms"? Was the rise and fall of communism in Eastern Europe not a significant enough development to merit divine foreknowledge? Baha'u'llah wrote - in imprecise terms - about the Kingdoms he knew about.

...many of those who were enemies of Bahais made fun of this prophecy, because they did not expect that the kingdom falls. This you can investigate if you want Thus, in that time, it was not commonly known as you imagine.

OK - so please provide references to primary source materials to establish this - shouldn't be difficult if there were "many" of them.

And, whilst you're at it, since you have so far mentioned only France, Germany, Russia, Britain and - if I recall correctly, the demise of Ali Pasha and the downfall of Abdul Aziz (the Ottoman Sultan in the 1870s), can you please provide references to materials that show that Baha'u'llah made prophetic references in regard to any others of the "main Kingdoms" - including China and Japan, whose Kingdoms fell and perhaps the Kingdom of the Netherlands that remains to this day, had (like Britain) recently abolished slavery in its Empire when Baha'u'llah was writing his letters and had instituted parliamentary democracy in 1848. If he mentioned any of these specifically then I guess you have a case - otherwise his "knowledge" of world events would certainly seem to have been limited to a Persian-centric view with a dash of French diplomatic input - not too far removed from his natural life, wouldn't you say?

 

[Vinayaka]

One eye witness account;

“Tihran, August 29, 1852. Dear Friend, My last letter of the 20th inst. mentioned the attempt on the King. I will now communicate to you the result of the interrogation to which the two criminals were subjected. In spite of the terrible tortures inflicted, the examination extorted no comprehensive confession; the lips of the fanatics remained closed, even when by means of red-hot pincers and limb-rending screws they sought to discover the chief conspirator…. But follow me, my friend, you who lay claim to a heart and European ethics, follow me to the unhappy ones who, with gouged-out eyes, must eat, on the scene of the deed, without any sauce, their own amputated ears; or whose teeth are torn out with inhuman violence by the hand of the executioner; or whose bare skulls are simply crushed by blows from a hammer; or where the bazar is illuminated with unhappy victims, because on right and left the people dig deep holes in their breasts and shoulders and insert burning wicks in the wounds. I saw some dragged in chains through the bazar preceded by a military band, in whom these wicks had burned so deep that now the fat flickered convulsively in the wound like a newly-extinguished lamp. Not seldom it happens that the unwearying ingenuity of the Orientals leads to fresh tortures. They will skin the soles of the Bábí’s feet, soak the wounds in boiling oil, shoe the foot like the hoof of a horse, and compel the victim to run. No cry escaped from the victim’s breast; the torment is endured in dark silence by the numbed sensation of the fanatic; now he must run; the body cannot endure what the soul has endured; he falls. Give him the coup de grace! Put him out of his pain! No! The executioner swings the whip, and — I myself have had to witness it — the unhappy victim of hundredfold tortures and runs! This is the beginning of the end. As for the end itself, they hang the scorched and perforated bodies by their hands and feet to a tree head downwards, and now every Persian may try his marksmanship to heart’s content from a fixed but not too proximate distance on the noble quarry placed at his disposal. I saw corpses torn by nearly 150 bullets…. When I read over again what I have written I am overcome by the thought that those who are with you in our dearly beloved Austria may doubt the full truth of the picture, and accuse me of exaggeration. Would to God that I had not lived to see it! But by the duties of my profession I was unhappily often, only too often, a witness of these abominations. At present I never leave my house, in order not to meet with fresh scenes of horror. After their death the Bábís are hacked in two and either nailed to the city gate, or cast out into the plain as food for the dogs and jackals. Thus the punishment extends even beyond the limits which bound this bitter world, for Musulmans who are not buried have no right to enter the Prophet’s Paradise. Since my whole soul revolts against such infamy, against such abominations as recent times, according to the judgment of all, present, I will no longer maintain my connection with the scene of such crimes.” (He goes on to say that he has already asked for his discharge, but has not yet received an answer.) (E. G. Browne’s “Materials for the Study of the Bábí Religion,” pp. 267-71)

Regards Tony

And yet you calm it is 'progressive' manifestations , which would indicate the one before Baha'ullah was the second most progressive. If what you describe from the so called 'religion of peace' Islam, is the second best, I simply can't imagine what the ones previous to that one was like. Yes, baha'i was a definite step up, that is if you can believe these so called 'first person accounts'.

The same brutality happened much earlier as well, in various invasions of Industan. Nobody was immune.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And yet you calm it is 'progressive' manifestations , which would indicate the one before Baha'ullah was the second most progressive. If what you describe from the so called 'religion of peace' Islam, is the second best, I simply can't imagine what the ones previous to that one was like. Yes, baha'i was a definite step up, that is if you can believe these so called 'first person accounts'.

The same brutality happened much earlier as well, in various invasions of Industan. Nobody was immune.

I never judge Muhammad by a person that makes a choice to be a savage.

If I did, then all the Great Beings would be judged the same way, that is not Justuce as all of them only wanted Peave, Love and Justice.

Thus the importance of why we look to what they said.

Regards Tony