How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

up, that is if you can believe these so called 'first person accounts'.

Yes there are more from eyewitnesses that were diplomats from other countries. I have read a lot of these and it is heart rendering. All the while all they had to say was "I am not a Babi, or Baha'i".

This is why the Message was given in Persia. It is not because they are more spiritual, it is because they have become exactly the opposite. Also consider this is why America also was Visited, Materialism and race relations being the major issues.

I think we can then reflect why India has not had a Prophet for some time. It could be their attitude was virtuous enough to carry them through to the end of the age.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You cannot say that, imo.
Every legislation of the Bab's could reasonably lay on the Statutes, until the UHJ might receive Divine Guidance to enact any of it.
It has to be REPEALED absolutely to be cleared.

And why did this apostate prophet, knowing that he would not do more than introduce the Prophet, decide to make such horrific laws?
Some of them are utterly dreadful.

What laws do you imagine the Universal House of Justice might enact? As made clear by Shoghi Effendi, the Bayan was abrogated and superceded by the laws of the Aqdas.

Shoghi Effendi in a letter addressed to the National Spiritual Assembly of India 1939 wrote:

…The severe laws and injunctions revealed by the Bab can be properly appreciated and understood only when interpreted in the light of His own statements regarding the nature, purpose and character of His own Dispensation. As these statements clearly reveal, the Babi Dispensation was essentially in the nature of a religious and indeed social revolution, and its duration had therefore to be short, but full of tragic events, of sweeping and drastic reforms. These drastic measures enforced by the Bab and His followers were taken with the view of undermining the very foundations of Shi’ah orthodoxy, and thus paving the way for the coming of Baha’u’llah. To assert the independence of the new Dispensation, and to prepare also the ground for the approaching Revelation of Baha’u’llah the Bab had therefore to reveal very severe laws, even though most of them, were never enforced. But the mere fact that He revealed them was in itself a proof of the independent character of His Dispensation and was sufficient to create such widespread agitation, and excite such opposition on the part of the clergy that led them to cause His eventual martyrdom.
The Bab specified that the “Bayan” is not completed and that “He Whom God would manifest” (Baha’u’llah) would complete it, though not in its actual form, but only spiritually in the form of another book. The “Iqan” is believed to be its continuation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Dawn of a New Day, Pages 77-78

Further in an introductory letter to the Kitab-i-Agdas the Universal House of Justcie has quoted Shoghi Effendi:

Mention has already been made of the intimate relationship between the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and the Holy Books of previous Dispensations. Especially close is the relationship to the Bayán, the Book of Laws revealed by the Báb. It is elucidated in the following excerpts from letters written on behalf of the Guardian:

Shoghi Effendi feels that the unity of the Bahá’í Revelation as one complete whole embracing the Faith of the Báb should be emphasized… The Faith of the Báb should not be divorced from that of Bahá’u’lláh. Though the teachings of the Bayán have been abrogated and superseded by the laws of the Aqdas, yet due to the fact that the Báb considered Himself as the Forerunner of Bahá’u’lláh, we would regard His Dispensation together with that of Bahá’u’lláh as forming one entity, the former being introductory to the advent of the latter.

The Báb states that His laws are provisional and depend upon the acceptance of the future Manifestation. This is why in the Book of Aqdas Bahá’u’lláh sanctions some of the laws found in the Bayán, modifies others and sets aside many.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 1-11

 

[Dawnofhope]

The above sent to another............
Fair enough, but all of this is claimed to have been guided perfectly by God, and so for such upheavals to occur would seem strange to the impartial observer.

The whole inheritance thing was and has been a bit of a mess. Now that fits perfectly with my Great Being, who exists in Chaos..... the only sure 'thing' being the immediate cutting edge of time.

Its important to realise that Shoghi Effendi over his 36 year ministry erected the Adminstrative order laying the foundation for the Universal House of Justice. When Adbu'l-Baha passed away and indicated the Shoghi Effendi was to lead the Baha'i community, many of his family members thought he should immediately arrange for the election of the Universdal House of Justice. However this depended on members of National Spiritual assemblies to elect them. In 1921 there were no NSAs.

Statistics on National Spiritual Assemblies - Wikipedia

By the time Shoghi Effendi passed away in 1957 there were 36. By the end of the ten year crusade inaugurated by Shoghi Effendi the first universal House of Justice could be elected and the Baha'i Faith had truly become a global religion.

Ten Year Crusade - Wikipedia

The foundation of the National Spiritual Assemblies also relied on having adequate numbers of Local Spiritual Assemblies.

Spiritual Assembly - Wikipedia

So the appointment of Shoghi Effendi resulted in enormous growth and progress of the Baha'i Internation community.

Although provision was made for successive guardians, this was not possible as Shoghi Effendi had no children. However it was clear from Adbu'l-Baha's Will and Testament that it was not possible to appoint another Guardian and that succession of leadership now rested with the Universal House of Justice.

The whole scenario simply became a test of the faithfulness of the Baha'is (or otherwise), as it had done with Abdu'l-Baha's passing, and Baha'u'llah's passing before that. This provided an opportunity to purify and strengthen the Baha'i community for the challenges that lay ahead.

 

[siti]

I never judge Muhammad by a person that makes a choice to be a savage.

So the Great Beings are judged (according to the opening gambit in this epic thread) by the 'greatness' of the religions they founded (even though some of them didn't) and not by the 'fruits' they produce? Is that not a direct contradiction of the words of the Great Being before Muhammad as recorded in Matthew 7:15-20?

 

[Vinayaka]

I never judge Muhammad by a person that makes a choice to be a savage.

Neither do I, on a person to person level, but unfortunately religions are certainly judged by the behaviour of their adherents. It's too brutal to be ignored, or sloughed off.

Islamic Invasion Of India: The Greatest Genocide In History

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we can then reflect why India has not had a Prophet for some time. It could be their attitude was virtuous enough to carry them through to the end of the age.

I don't see the connection you're trying to make. India (nor anyone for that matter) doesn't need a prophet. It's not at all necessary. All you need is the ability to think for yourself.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not me - Abdu'l Baha did that - I'm just reading his words as written in his Will and Testament (page 11 - my emphasis):

"He [referring to Shogi Effendi] is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents."

You can interpret it differently if you like, but that is what it says.

The Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha was not in any way intended as prophetic. It is the charter for the Baha'i Administrative order and 20 - 30 page document needs to be understood as a whole. In that context, Abdu'l-Baha is simply making provision for the possibility of a future of Guardian(s). This was not possible as Shoghi Effendi had no children. The Will and Testament also elaborates on the Universal House of Justice as one of the twin successors of Abdu'l-Baha, along with the Guardianship.

 

[siti]

The Will and Testament also elaborates on the Universal House of Justice as one of the twin successors of Abdu'l-Baha, along with the Guardianship...

...intended to be implemented in the event that Shogi Effendi's heirs failed to uphold the Baha'i faith - whether or not he would have an heir was not even considered - it was simply assumed that he would. But if we are declaring "not prophecy" because the stated expectation did not materialize, then maybe we need to re-examine some of the letters to the rulers that Baha'u'llah wrote and see whether these were really meant to be prophecy as well.

For example, please quote the exact phrase where Baha'u'llah explicitly predicts the downfall of the German Empire or the Czar of Russia.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes.
At that time many young were seeking a Universal Unity of freedom, in thought, body and spirit and Bahai did look as if it was going to fill that 'destination' for so many. It seemed to be sold to some extent like that.
The tough parts came several years later, with enrolment and follower ID, with the new knowledge about prejudices not previously even thought of.

The Universal Unitarians rose out of the ashes of those times, I think.

It is reasonable to state that some who became Baha'is during this time, had a poor understanding of what the Baha'i faith was all about, and when they inevitably had a more complete picture, decided it wasn't for them and left. Back then, there was more of an emphasis on the social principles. Now we emphasise more the Personage of Baha'u'llah, God, the underlying unity of religion, and principles for cultivating spirituality.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the Great Beings are judged (according to the opening gambit in this epic thread) by the 'greatness' of the religions they founded (even though some of them didn't) and not by the 'fruits' they produce? Is that not a direct contradiction of the words of the Great Being before Muhammad as recorded in Matthew 7:15-20?

In Prophecy a 'Prophet' is known by 'His Fruits'. The Choice Fruits are their own person and Lives, their Fruits match their words.

The Faith goes through the seasons of spring, summer, autumn and then winter.

All Faiths have their Summer in the age they were given and that is when they reach the apex of humanities capacity in that age. This is the time when the Tree of the Messenger also bears the fruit of those that have grasped the intent of Gods Word.

This age will see the entire Human Race reach a Unity yet to be envisaged by men on earth.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

...intended to be implemented in the event that Shogi Effendi's heirs failed to uphold the Baha'i faith - whether or not he would have an heir was not even considered - it was simply assumed that he would.

Context is very important to studying the writings of any religion, the Baha'i Faith included.

Abdu'l-Baha had enormous difficulties as a result of his unfaithful half-brother Muhammad Ali after his Father's passing. You may recall that Ibrahim Kheiralla tried to claim the leadership of the Baha'i faith in the USA for himself. This was as a direct result of the association Muhammad Ali. Further, Adbu'l-Baha spend several additional years as a prisoner of the Ottoman empire as a result of suspicions aroused by the Covenant breakers. They claimed that the American Pilgrims were actually planning a military insurrection and the initial edifice for the Bab's shrine was some kind of fortification for military purposes.

So the language Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament strongly emphasised the importance of turning towards Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice for guidance:

The sacred and youthful branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both). Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him! The mighty stronghold shall remain impregnable and safe through obedience to him who is the Guardian of the Cause of God. It is incumbent upon the members of the House of Justice, upon all the Aghsán, the Afnán, the Hands of the Cause of God to show their obedience, submissiveness and subordination unto the Guardian of the Cause of God, to turn unto him and be lowly before him. He that opposeth him hath opposed the True One, will make a breach in the Cause of God, will subvert His Word and will become a manifestation of the Center of Sedition. Beware, beware, lest the days after the ascension (of Bahá’u’lláh) be repeated when the Center of Sedition waxed haughty and rebellious and with Divine Unity for his excuse deprived himself and perturbed and poisoned others. No doubt every vainglorious one that purposeth dissension and discord will not openly declare his evil purposes, nay rather, even as impure gold, will he seize upon divers measures and various pretexts that he may separate the gathering of the people of Bahá.

So Abdu'l-Baba was not prophecising that family members would follow Shoghi Effendi, he was emphasising that they had to, and what needed to happen if they didn't.

The other condition for a successor for the Guardianship was outstanding character:

O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the words:—“The child is the secret essence of its sire,” that is, should he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch to succeed him.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Will And Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 3-15

Unfortunately there was no one qualified to be the next Guardian and so the role of Universal House of Justice and the Hands of the Cause was also emphasised in the Will and Testament.

But if we are declaring "not prophecy" because the stated expectation did not materialize, then maybe we need to re-examine some of the letters to the rulers that Baha'u'llah wrote and see whether these were really meant to be prophecy as well.

The overarching prophecy according to Shoghi Effendi was this:

“Soon,” Bahá’u’lláh’s own words proclaim it, “will the present day Order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth and is the Knower of things unseen.” “By Myself,” He solemnly asserts, “the day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new Order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” “The world’s equilibrium,” He explains, “hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this Most Great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System, the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” “The signs of impending convulsions and chaos,” He warns the peoples of the world, “can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing Order appeareth to be lamentably defective.”

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-41.htm

So these verses included in the Kitab-i-Aqdas is the context we need to consider the veiled words addressed to Kaiser Wilheim I that are also part of the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 39

For example, please quote the exact phrase where Baha'u'llah explicitly predicts the downfall of the German Empire or the Czar of Russia.

There is nothing specific in the tablet to the Czar of Russia about the down fall of his empire.

 

[siti]

Context is very important to studying the writings of any religion, the Baha'i Faith included...

...these verses included in the Kitab-i-Aqdas is the context we need to consider the veiled words addressed to Kaiser Wilheim I that are also part of the Kitab-i-Aqdas...

Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

Exactly - this 'veiled' warning is as specific as it gets for Germany and yet the claim is made that the subsequent fall of the German Empire almost 50 years later constitutes a specific fulfillment. Wilhelm I was not "brought down from his palace to the grave" by "the all Merciful" - despite the fact that he paid Baha'u'llah's prophecy no regard whatsoever as far as we can tell. He died of natural causes at the age of 90. Even Wilhelm II, whose Empire finally fell in 1918, lived out the remainder of his life in this house until he too died of natural causes at the age of 82 in 1941.

I wouldn't mind another quarter of a century of life in a house like that as punishment for rejecting your bold attempts to convince me that Baha'u'llah had divine foreknowledge of this terrible downturn in the fortunes of the House of Hohenzollern - whose last ruling monarch (King Michael I of Romania) died yesterday - also in his 90s - and whose forced abdication in 1947 brought an end to a dynasty of increasingly powerful and widening rulership that had lasted a thousand years. I'd count that as a pretty good outcome all round. Mind you, it was a bit of a turnaround from this:

...but hardly "the grave" I don't think.

All that "veiled specificity" apart - Shogi Effendi quotes from Baha'u'llah when he says:

“The signs of impending convulsions and chaos,” He warns the peoples of the world, “can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing Order appeareth to be lamentably defective.”

Clearly Baha'u'llah agreed with me that the potential for further fallings and risings of kingdoms was pretty obvious to anyone following the political events of the time. In fact, if we go back to the source document (Lawh-i-Maqsud) Baha'u'llah declares himself "filled with wonder, inasmuch as all men are endowed with the capacity to see and hear, yet we find them deprived of the privilege of using these faculties" to discern the very signs he was referring them to in his "veiled" prophecies.I should be quite pleased with myself - reaching the same conclusion as a Divine Manifestation of God without ever having read it before! Don't you agree?

There is nothing specific in the tablet to the Czar of Russia about the down fall of his empire.

Thank you - so we can discount that one as a "specific" fulfilment then.

So, as far as Europe is concerned, we are now left with a single fulfilled prediction of further political upheaval in a country (France) that had convulsed its way through numerous changes of government and close to a hundred different Heads of State in the 80 years immediately prior to the prophecy being written down.

Are there any other specific prophecies?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes


Don't make this look like a kind of genocide. The Babi forces had engaged in armed conflict with government forces in several serious engagements, the Bab had become a public apostate and insurrection was threatened across the whole land.
And after three Babis attempted to assassinate the Shah the level of threat became huge.

To claim the Bahauallah, a Babi, had nothing to do with supporting these people in their armed conflict cuts badly either way. Either he did not truly stand by his own or he did....... it can go wrong each way.

Of course Bahais, seeing all this as God's purpose on Earth will see it somewhat scewed.
If this happened in, say, certain States in the USA, I doubt that too many prisoners would have b taken. Today It's terrorism.


Vastly influential with the Turks and Mid East, and maybe good friends with Bahauallah's Father, that could have been the interest that saved his life and got him cleared out to Acre by the Turkish authorities.
I'll bet that he and his were kept there at their own expense. Much of truth and straight facts seem to be hidden in religious mist about his detention at Acre.


He was connected to religious and political terrorism, to armed conflict involving the deaths of government troops.
He's lucky that he had any status, life or blood left.

First up, I believe there was a genocide of the Babis, but if you want to say they only had themselves to blame, then we could say that for any group that tried to stick up for themselves and were crushed.

With your background as a detective, you will appreciate there are three sides to every story. His side, her side, and what really happened. The Baha'is have a document called the Dawn Breakers written by one of our historians recorded events in what I believe to be a fair balanced way. You may like to read some of it.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 301-309

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 309-324

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 324-378

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 378-430

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 430-465

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 465-500

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 500-527

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 527-582

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 582-595

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 595-651

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is nothing specific in the tablet to the Czar of Russia about the down fall of his empire

Thank you - so we can discount that one as a "specific" fulfilment then.

Not at all because a minister of the the Czar of Russia helped Baha'u'llah and that was accounted in His Favor. You needed to read the Prisoner and The Kings link I posted to you - This page talks about the Czar - The Prisoner and the Kings by William Sears- Chapter 5

"....Baha'u'llah foretold a great station for the Czar if he would in like manner try to help mankind.....Baha'u'llah directed these words to Alexander: "Whilst I lay, chained and fettered, in the prison [in Persia], one of thy ministers extended Me his aid. Wherefore hath God ordained for thee a station which the knowledge of none can comprehend..." -Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, page 57

The place of prestige would not be automatically conferred. The Czar would have to labor industriously to attain it. The Czar would have to be of service to his fellow-man, and exert his efforts to bring the hearts of men back to God, and to acquaint the world with the Message of unity and justice which Baha'u'llah had brought.

But God would help him. Baha'u'llah assured Alexander that

"Thy Lord is, in truth, potent over all things. He giveth what He willeth to whomsoever He willeth . . . "

Would the Czar-Liberator listen?"

Thus the Czar was offered a special station, if He was to accept the Message of Baha'u'llah;

".....In that same letter Baha'u'llah said that He had heard the wishes which the Czar had spoken secretly in his heart in prayer. Baha'u'llah promised Alexander that God was willing to grant the king his desire if he in turn would be faithful to his trust as a true king.

Baha'u'llah declared:

"We, verily, have heard the thing for which thou didst supplicate thy Lord, whilst secretly communing with Him. Wherefore, the breeze of My loving-kindness wafted forth, and the sea of My mercy surged, and We answered thee in truth." -Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, page 57

It was as though the Emperor Tiberius received a promise from Christ that if he would accept His Message and proclaim it, he, Caesar would be the envy of the past, present and future. It was a promise similar to that which Baha'u'llah had offered to Napoleon III who had refused it and had fallen from his high place.

Thus, for a moment, Alexander II Nicolaevich, was at the threshold of a greatness unrivaled in the recorded history of royalty. We could have had the support and guidance of a Messenger of God in his actions. Alexander only needed to stretch forth his hand in help to the Promised One Whose coming had glorified the pages of the Czar's own sacred Scriptures. Eager that the king should understand this and not miss his golden opportunity, Baha'u'llah repeated His entreaty:

"Again I say, Hearken unto My Voice that calleth from My prison . . . that thou mayest perceive how great hath been My patience . . . "

Baha'u'llah foresaw an unrivaled position for the Czar. The king needed to take but one step to make it a reality. Baha'u'llah wrote:

"O Czar of Russia... By My Life! Couldst thou but know the things sent down by My Pen, and discover the treasures of My Cause . . . thou woudst, in thy love for My name, and in thy longing for My glorious and sublime Kingdom, lay down thy life in My path... Blessed be the king whose sovereignty hath withheld him not from his Sovereign, and who hath turned unto God with his heart . . . " -Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, page 28

The story continues;

The House of Romanov fell, as had the House of Napoleon and Hohenzollern. Its fortunes declined with progressive swiftness until World War I. Bolshevism arose during that fiery upheaval, shook the throne of the Czars, and then abolished it. The last years of the reign of Alexander II were given over to terrorism and unexampled violence. Alexander reversed his liberal policies and inaugurated a program of repression which was taken up and expanded by his two autocratic successors. The Czar lived in fear of his life. Living itself became a daily ordeal. Alexander would not leave the palace except under heavy guard. He preferred not to leave at all. He ordered his quarters to be searched carefully each night before retiring for fear of concealed assassins.

On March 13, 1881, the Czar was riding in his carriage along one of the central streets of St. Petersburg near the Winter Palace. The fatal day had arrived at last. A series of small bombs was exploded in his path. His vehicle was overturned. The blast shredded the king's carriage. Alexander survived, and was questioning the would-be assassin when the latter's accomplice threw another bomb directly in front of the Czar's feet. Alexander died a few hours later in his room at the Royal Palace.

The next Romanov, Czar Alexander III, was cut from a more tyrannical pattern, and his successor Nicholas II, the last of the Czars, was equally rigid but, unhappily for him, far less able.

What had been a general growing discontent among the masses now became an organized revolt. Both intellectuals and peasants arose against the Czar. Their hatred finally erupted in the midst of World War I.

The flame of revolution swept across the land, a revolution unparalleled in modern history. It challenged all age-old principles. It upended ancient and time-honored institutions, and spread havoc, destruction and death on every side. The death-throes of the Romanov dynasty have been described in these words: "A great trembling seized and rocked the foundations of that country." The light of religion was dimmed. Ecclesiastical institutions of every denomination were swept away. The state religion was disendowed, persecuted and abolished. A far-flung empire was dismembered.

"A militant, triumphant proletariat exiled the intellectuals, and plundered and massacred the nobility. Civil war and disease decimated a population, already in the throes of agony and despair. And, finally, the Chief Magistrate of a mighty dominion, together with his consort, and his family, and his dynasty, were swept into the vortex of this great convulsion." -The Promised Day is Come, page 56

This brought to an end the line of kings which had ruled Russia for three hundred years. They, too, had turned a deaf ear to the words of the Messenger of God:

"O ye rulers of the earth! ...Hearken unto the counsel given you by the Pen of the Most High, that haply both ye and the poor may attain unto tranquillity and peace. We beseech God to assist the kings of the earth to establish peace on earth . . . Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful." -Gleanings, pages 253-254

The House of Romanov collapsed. The dynasty of which Alexander Nicolaevitch II had been so proud came to an end. The Czars had not "stayed the hand of the oppressors" nor had they "safeguarded the rights of the downtrodden." In the wake of this disaster, every prophecy which Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God, had uttered concerning the fate of oppressive monarchs had been fulfilled."

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

One eye witness account;

That was no doubt the punishment for attempted Regicide in Persia, back then.

I don't know when the last execution for treachery was held in Britain, but a public event where the convict was hanged, let down, disemboweled alive to watch his entrails burning beside him, cut into quarters and beheaded.

Of course, when it suited, we killed Kings as well. Edward II was held down and a red hot rod was inserted into his anus and pushed up inside him him so that his death would show no marks.

It's best not to revolt, insurrect and attempt regicide.
You see? It seems as if this Babi was a complete nut, the laws which he wanted to enact and apply, the attempted overthrow of an existing government, and his followers, fanatics according t that witness, must have been encouraged to do some very dreadful things.

 

[siti]

Wherefore hath God ordained for thee a station which the knowledge of none can comprehend...

"Thy Lord is, in truth, potent over all things. He giveth what He willeth to whomsoever He willeth . . . "

Baha'u'llah promised Alexander that God was willing to grant the king his desire if he in turn would be faithful to his trust as a true king.

"We, verily, have heard the thing for which thou didst supplicate thy Lord, whilst secretly communing with Him. Wherefore, the breeze of My loving-kindness wafted forth, and the sea of My mercy surged, and We answered thee in truth."

"Again I say, Hearken unto My Voice that calleth from My prison . . . that thou mayest perceive how great hath been My patience . . . "

"O Czar of Russia... By My Life! Couldst thou but know the things sent down by My Pen, and discover the treasures of My Cause . . . thou woudst, in thy love for My name, and in thy longing for My glorious and sublime Kingdom, lay down thy life in My path... Blessed be the king whose sovereignty hath withheld him not from his Sovereign, and who hath turned unto God with his heart . . . "

"O ye rulers of the earth! ...Hearken unto the counsel given you by the Pen of the Most High, that haply both ye and the poor may attain unto tranquillity and peace. We beseech God to assist the kings of the earth to establish peace on earth . . . Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful."

Where in any of these is there a specific prediction about the fate of the Czar or his dynasty?

 

[oldbadger]

What laws do you imagine the Universal House of Justice might enact? As made clear by Shoghi Effendi, the Bayan was abrogated and superceded by the laws of the Aqdas.

I don't think so!
And look at how Shogi described that man! That uprising!
Here, let me show you!

...........the Babi Dispensation was essentially in the nature of a religious and indeed social revolution, and its duration had therefore to be short, but full of tragic events, of sweeping and drastic reforms. ...........
10 years of revolt and killing and trouble!

............taken with the view of undermining the very foundations of Shi’ah orthodoxy..............
Absolutely!

....................the Bab had therefore to reveal very severe laws, .....................
Rubbish....... they were inhuman.
Laws like the banning of Logic. How did that prepare for Bahai?
........................was sufficient to create such widespread agitation, and excite such opposition on the part of the clergy that led them to cause His eventual martyrdom......
Absolutely!
This was terrorism by our standards, today.

............... The “Iqan” is believed to be its continuation.
............ Continuation, eh?

..............we would regard His Dispensation together with that of Bahá’u’lláh as forming one entity, the former being introductory to the advent of the latter.........
Indeed.

...............Bahá’u’lláh sanctions some of the laws found in the Bayán, modifies others and sets aside many.

Sets aside................ many.

................. And this Bab was your long awaited wonder eh? What a sweetheart.
It makes 1844 a bit of a joke.

 

[siti]

I don't know when the last execution for treachery was held in Britain, but a public event where the convict was hanged, let down, disemboweled alive to watch his entrails burning beside him, cut into quarters and beheaded.

That would be William Joyce in 1947 and the last man hanged, drawn and quartered was David Tyrie in 1782. In 1803 Edward Despard and his co-conspirators were hanged and beheaded for their parts in a failed plot to assassinate King George III. Both events attracted huge crowds. In the latter, the surgeon charged with the removal of Despard's head made a hash of it and the executioner had to twist it off before holding it up for the crowd to see!

 

[oldbadger]

First up, I believe there was a genocide of the Babis, but if you want to say they only had themselves to blame, then we could say that for any group that tried to stick up for themselves and were crushed.

What? Like ISIS?
If and when the World manages to crush ISIS, will it have been a genocide?

Just how many religious leaders insist that their followers face towards the leader's house to say prayers? This man was a megalomaniac beyond any doubt, and his followers were most dangerous to the society, government and order of the whole country, and apostates.

With your background as a detective, you will appreciate there are three sides to every story. His side, her side, and what really happened. The Baha'is have a document called the Dawn Breakers written by one of our historians recorded events in what I believe to be a fair balanced way. You may like to read some of it.

Now which side of the story was all that, his side or her side, because it could not have been the impartial side of a detached observer.
In hundreds of pages of posts some of us have come to believe that bahai docs have to be treated with some caution.

FGS, it's taken nearly 800 pages to discover more about this Bab character and his utterly crazy, totally dreadful laws and following.

 

[oldbadger]

That would be William Joyce in 1947 and the last man hanged, drawn and quartered was David Tyrie in 1782. In 1803 Edward Despard and his co-conspirators were hanged and beheaded for their parts in a failed plot to assassinate King George III. Both events attracted huge crowds. In the latter, the surgeon charged with the removal of Despard's head made a hash of it and the executioner had to twist it off before holding it up for the crowd to see!

Thankyou for that.
Just how can humans take history and adjust it so that extemist insurgents in outright armed revolt and the breakup of a 1400 year established religion turn the perpetrators into holy folks?