How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

This is precisely the same circular reasoning that supports all blind faith...

First you choose a religion and declare its founder infallible. Then you examine the writings to see if it has anything that might look like a prophecy. Then you look for any possible correspondence between the prophecy and known historical events. If you find it that proves the infallibility of the founder, if not it simply means either it hasn't happened yet or we lack the faith and spiritual insight to interpret it correctly. Either way the founder remains infallible. Christians have been going round this circle for 2000 years. Baha'is have got a very long way to go yet. I wonder if they'll have the same stamina.

The Bahai teachings are the life of this age and being adopted all over the world. They are relevant and needed.

Look around you. We need unity between nations and races and religions. The Bahai teachings are a promotion of a prejudice free attitude towards our free low human being.

I be,Ive in the teachings of Baha’u’llah because they are relevant to the needs of today.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is great news!
So we now know that Bahauallah had a wife already, and then married two more, the Bab legislating that only two wives could be married.

I'll rest that information for any who happen along..........

Every one of Bahaullah’s marriages was fully legal according to both Muslim and Bábí law.

 

[siti]

The Bahai teachings are a promotion of a prejudice free attitude towards our free low human being.

So is secular humanism.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's very true, and the very reason we only have about 5 million Bahai's on a planet of 7 billion. So around one in a thousand has accepted it.

There was a time when there was only one Hindu in the world also. Completely irrelevant. Christ had only twelve disciples look now. We are only 170 years old.

Give it Time. Truth is not measured by numbers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So is secular humanism.

Then we both work together for a better world. This is the hope that all people of goodwill will join hands to create a better system.

 

[siti]

Then we both work together for a better world. This is the hope that all people of goodwill will join hands to create a better system.

Excellent - then we can start by agreeing that the "Kings of the Earth" should adopt secular humanism as their guiding principle and stop suggesting that the reason for the periodic rising and falling of their "kingdoms" is their failure to accept a particular religious faith or the words of a particular prophet. Now we are getting somewhere!

 

[oldbadger]

I definitely think you could be onto something there. I don't know much about the psychology of imprinting but what you say seems to fit the "religious" attitude - following meekly in the footsteps of the "Great Being" like a recently-hatched duckling stumbling haplessly after the mother duck. I guess its kinda the same thing that makes the first car we owned the best that was ever made - even though it was a rusty old jalopy of a thing that nobody else would have been seen dead driving. You know its a heap of old "pickled cherries", but you persist in defending its honor as you would your own mother's.

Brilliant analogy!
My first motor was a bond 3-wheeler with a villiers single cylinder 197cc two stroke motor, kick start..... the weirdest car you could ever see, and I remember that old rattle-trap with great affection.
But if my grandson rolled up in one today I would freak out with total fear for him. Total bloody death trap, and yet I could write poems about the bloody thing.

 

[oldbadger]

This is precisely the same circular reasoning that supports all blind faith...

First you choose a religion and declare its founder infallible. Then you examine the writings to see if it has anything that might look like a prophecy. Then you look for any possible correspondence between the prophecy and known historical events. If you find it that proves the infallibility of the founder, if not it simply means either it hasn't happened yet or we lack the faith and spiritual insight to interpret it correctly. Either way the founder remains infallible. Christians have been going round this circle for 2000 years. Baha'is have got a very long way to go yet. I wonder if they'll have the same stamina.

Yes.
And already the man is becoming infallible, super human, and his son is becoming the Paul who can change the meanings of things previously written, and their head office is becoming a watchtower to adjust all, as required.

But it cannot be seen by the followers.

 

[oldbadger]

Oh dear! Once again you are having difficulty with your reading skills IT! Here it is again with a little more explanation, color-coded and with my notes in square brackets:

"Jena [a battle in which Napoleon I defeated Prussia] came twenty years after the death of Frederick the Great [Frederick the Great died in 1786 and the Battle of Jena was fought and lost in 1806 - the Kingdom of Prussia was subjugated to Napoleon's French Empire until 1812]; the crash [meaning the fall of the German Empire] will come twenty years after my departure [meaning Bismarck's death by comparison with the first part of the statement which refers to Frederick the Great's death] if things go on like this"

Bismarck's "departure" happened in July 1898 when he died and the Empire fell in November 1918 when the military high command refused to fight for Wilhelm II and demanded Hindenburg's leadership instead. Interestingly, Bismarck had also predicted not only the time but the mutinous manner in which the downfall would occur. In the same year that he predicted the "Crash" twenty years after his death he also warned Wilhelm II:

"Your Majesty, so long as you have this present officer corps, you can do as you please. But when this is no longer the case, it will be very different for you."

Bismarck was, of course, no prophet and made no such pretensions - he was just a smart guy looking at the trajectory of current events and making remarkably accurate predictions based on his observations. And in regard to the fall of the German Empire, his predictions were both more accurate and more detailed than those of Baha'u'llah - but that stands to reason - Bismarck obviously knew a hell of a lot more about the German Empire. So much for divine inspiration!

I have not read further than this post, and so I'll guess that your points will not be acknowledged, rather you will receive more quotes from Bahai, because only Bahai quotes count.

 

[oldbadger]

The Bahai teachings are the life of this age and being adopted all over the world. They are relevant and needed.

No........ the Bahai teachings are left in the dark ages by Western Legislations and policies over Equality, Voting rights, employment, etc.

Look around you. We need unity between nations and races and religions. The Bahai teachings are a promotion of a prejudice free attitude towards our free low human being.

But your ideas about Unity are a Bahai World, with Bahai Government, Theocratic rule and more.
We're better off in the chaos of the present World than that.

I be,Ive in the teachings of Baha’u’llah because they are relevant to the needs of today.

That's ok. Believing in something is good, but don't expect the rest of the World to drop its own ideas and come beating a path to your door.

 

[oldbadger]

Every one of Bahaullah’s marriages was fully legal according to both Muslim and Bábí law.

No. Nor showing any personal integrity.

A person who has a wife and joins a sect that forbids more than two wives, will only marry one more wife. Bahauallah married TWO more wives, making THREE wives in all, and then wrote stuff which his son later adjusted to ONE wife only, probably to assist with conversions in Western Lands.

One could drive a bus through integrity like that, but if you're happy with it.....

 

[oldbadger]

There was a time when there was only one Hindu in the world also. Completely irrelevant. Christ had only twelve disciples look now. We are only 170 years old.

Give it Time. Truth is not measured by numbers.

Yeshua had rather more than 12 followers. Just saying......

The next time, if there is a next time (because there might only be half a dozen Bahais in my area) that a Bahai boasts to me that Bahai has a few millions followers, I will reply with your words:
Truth is not measured by numbers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. Nor showing any personal integrity.

A person who has a wife and joins a sect that forbids more than two wives, will only marry one more wife. Bahauallah married TWO more wives, making THREE wives in all, and then wrote stuff which his son later adjusted to ONE wife only, probably to assist with conversions in Western Lands.

One could drive a bus through integrity like that, but if you're happy with it.....

He married once as a Muslim, once as a Bábí and the other marriage was when He was the New Manifestation and the Bábí Dispensation had ended.

The three wives of Bahá'u'lláh were:

Nawáb (Asíyih Khánum): married some time between 24 September and 22 October 1835; died 1886; seven children.
(As a Muslim)

Mahd-i-'Ulyá (Fátimih Khánum): born 1828; married 1849; died 1904; six children. She broke the Covenant after the Ascension of Bahá'u'lláh as did all her children. See God Passes By (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), chapter 15.
(As a Bábí)

Gawhar Khánum: married in Baghdád; died during the Ministry of 'Abdu'l-Bahá; one child. She and her daughter both broke the Covenant after the Ascension of Bahá'u'lláh. See God Passes By, chapter 15.

As a Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah is not bound by the laws of the previous dispensation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeshua had rather more than 12 followers. Just saying......

The next time, if there is a next time (because there might only be half a dozen Bahais in my area) that a Bahai boasts to me that Bahai has a few millions followers, I will reply with your words:
Truth is not measured by numbers.

I would rather be in the minority and follow truth than have all the power and wealth in the world. True wealth is to have Certitude.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. Nor showing any personal integrity.

A person who has a wife and joins a sect that forbids more than two wives, will only marry one more wife. Bahauallah married TWO more wives, making THREE wives in all, and then wrote stuff which his son later adjusted to ONE wife only, probably to assist with conversions in Western Lands.

One could drive a bus through integrity like that, but if you're happy with it.....

You’re also speaking as a westerner not taking into account that in those parts of the world many wives was perfectly legal according to their laws and customs. Monogamy was only gradually introduced by Baha’u’llah. It was not immoral in those parts and having many wives did not affect ones standing or integrity in those lands. So really what you’re saying is Baha’u’llah was wrong according to your western values but He was not bound by western laws and fully respected all Muslim and Bábí laws until He became an independent Manifestation.

His first marriage was according to Muslim law perfectly legal and before the Bab had declared. His second marriage was just before the Bab was executed. So all during the Bábí Dispensation He had only two wives. The next wife Baha’u’llah married around 1862 after the Bab had been martyred. . By that time He was already a Manifestation of God not bound by the Bab’s laws.

 

[oldbadger]

He married once as a Muslim, once as a Bábí and the other marriage was when He was the New Manifestation and the Bábí Dispensation had ended.
.

Now which part of all this can you not understand?
Having married two women already, and being fully and intimately aware of The Bab's and his own rules he married a third wife.

And please don't tell me, after all this numerological nonsense about how the Bahai Dispensation started (really) in 1844, how later on the dispensation commenced in 1844 ended.

This is waffle on a grand scale.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But the point I'm trying to make here is that most non-Baha'i and ex-Baha'i aren't the evil negative lying manipulators of truth they're made out to be here. They're people, with legitimate stories of why they left.

People are free to join the Baha'i Faith and leave in accordance with the belief in Baha'u'llah. It is wholly untrue that Baha'is label those who leave the Baha'i Faith as evil, manipulators.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think you mistake the word 'anti' and disagreement. 'Anti' to me means taking a very active role in degrading the other side, to the point of using falsehood. Basically, it becomes dog-eat-dog, anything goes type of mentality, perhaps resorting to violence. Disagreeing, because you disagree, is another matter.

Baha'is have no problem with disagreement. However when others deliberately misrepresent the Baha'i view and distort the truth, then the line between disagreement and being 'anti' is crossed.

 

[oldbadger]

I would rather be in the minority and follow truth than have all the power and wealth in the world.

Yes, but after hundreds of pages and many thousands of posts it does not look as if yiou have discovered the truth. imo.

True wealth is to have Certitude.

Well, you know, many folks think they are absolutely and infalliby right.......... a kind of blindness that truly amazes me.
This certitude is what would make a Bahai World so very terrifying...... for those with vision.

 

[oldbadger]

You’re also speaking as a westerner not taking into account that in those parts of the world many wives was perfectly legal according to their laws and customs. Monogamy was only gradually introduced by Baha’u’llah.

It was a Babi Law!
So the above para is false.

He was not bound by western laws and fully respected all Muslim and Bábí laws until He became an independent Manifestation.

He broke the Babi laws.
He broke his own.