How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

As for all the wars and killing, that my Abrahamic brothers and sisters engage in, past and present, most of this is man ignoring, misinterpreting or misunderstanding God rather than listening and obeying God....not that God hasn't urged His followers to fight in times past and present, mostly for self defensive reasons.

I've never read the old testament, nor the Koran, but from comments by I have read by those who have, they seem to be very violent books, and there are quotes of the so called leaders encouraging others to 'kill the infidels!' and worse. So cherry picking can work either way I suppose.

Is this site all lies? The Life of Muhammad

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I've never read the old testament, nor the Koran, but from comments by I have read by those who have, they seem to be very violent books, and there are quotes of the so called leaders encouraging others to 'kill the infidels!' and worse. So cherry picking can work either way I suppose.

Is this site all lies? The Life of Muhammad

From Baha'i View this is the truth about Muhammad:
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[oldbadger]

Toward the end of His life, Bahá’u’lláh’s writings on His early experiences included a brief description of the conditions in the Síyáh-Chál.

We were consigned for four months to a place foul beyond comparison…. The dungeon was wrapped in thick darkness, and Our fellow-prisoners numbered nearly a hundred and fifty souls: thieves, assassins and highwaymen.

Yes, and no Babis, apart from Bahauallah whose social position had saved his life.
A massive insurrection had been taking place, caused by apostates, and three of the followers had even attempted to assasinate the Shah.
Compared to Insurrectionists I expect that thieves and highwaymen were not classed as so dangerous.

Though crowded, it had no other outlet than the passage by which We entered. No pen can depict that place, nor any tongue describe its loathsome smell. Most of these men had neither clothes nor bedding to lie on. God alone knoweth what befell Us in that most foul-smelling and gloomy place!

They were released outside each day to take the air.

Each day the guards would descend the three steep flights of stairs of the pit, seize one or more of the prisoners, and drag them out to be executed.

The Koran requires the death sentence for villains, but especially for apostates who belong to insurrectionist cults. Yes, I can almost see it all.

In the streets of Teheran, Western observers were appalled by scenes of Bábí victims blown from cannon mouths, hacked to death by axes and swords, and led to their deaths with burning candles inserted into open wounds in their bodies.

Dreadful. If you happen to have any reports by impartial western observers, that would be of great interest.

6 It was in these circumstances, and faced with the prospect of His own imminent death, that Bahá’u’lláh received the first intimation of His mission.

It doesn't look as if they ever intended to kill him.
They certainly never tried, nor was he dragged out like the others, to execution.

It looks as if Social Position and Interest was much the same as today.[/QUOTE]

 

[oldbadger]

It all depends on Who Baha’u’llah is. IF He is a Manifestation of God then He speaks truthfully and should never be doubted.

As you don’t accept He is a Manifestation of course you doubt.

It all comes back to resolving whether or not He was the Promised One foretold in the scriptures of all religions or not.

I'm looking at the circumstances of his birth, youth and upbringing, together with accounts of his personal training in manly arts, plus the fact that his father was a Muslim.

Ergo, the accounts that he had no education in attempt to prove that he received all knowledge direct from God is 'wobbly'. I'm being very polite here.

 

[oldbadger]

Wives of Baha’u’llah

His first wife He married before the Bab’s Declaration under Muslim law. Then the next two wives He was permitted under Babi law and He married them before His Book of Laws was revealed so they were three legally and rightful marriages all according to the law.

This is great news!
So we now know that Bahauallah had a wife already, and then married two more, the Bab legislating that only two wives could be married.

I'll rest that information for any who happen along..........

 

[oldbadger]

I can assure you Baha'u'llah broke no rule . You can provide a link to that if you wish.

Regards Tony

Yep...... No probs.
Already married to one wife before, and being a Babi and undersatanding the Babis legislation for a max of two wives, he went ahead and married two further wives regardless.

Link:-

Wives of Baha'u'llah
His first wife He married before the Bab’s Declaration under Muslim law. Then the next two wives He was permitted under Babi law and He married them before His Book of Laws was revealed so they were three legally and rightful marriages all according to the law.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, I read that one too. It's an open site where any and all stories can be published. I looked at the whole, and didn't just select the most negative one to post here. But of course it's your right to pick the one that is the most true to the Baha'i agenda and re-post it here. Cherry picking is a well known pattern of behaviour.

Did they but realise it, but cherry-picking is the most negative of practices. It can even become wicked. Much worse than the Bahais are the right wing, fundie Christians who can point to their bibles to prove how gunning down tresspassers or nuking Mecca is an holy action.

But the point I'm trying to make here is that most non-Baha'i and ex-Baha'i aren't the evil negative lying manipulators of truth they're made out to be here.

You noticed. (!). At the point where Bahai might be losing ground posts can become personal, suggesting bad mind, or 'triumphal' opinions, etc.
It does not help the Bahai 'brand'.

must go............ dinner!

 

[Vinayaka]

From Baha'i View this is the truth about Muhammad:
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

IT, thanks, I prefer to look at all sides of any debate. I'm an outsider. Can you even look at all sides, or are you not allowed, or do you have a psychological barrier to it?

Contrary to what you might believe, there are other POVs outside of the Baha'i POV. There exists the possibility that they might hold some validity too. Just as there is the belief in infallibility, (always and completely true) I suppose there is the other side, that being always completely and totally false. I'm neutral. I realise that isn't good enough. It's like in a schoolyard fight where both combatants feel the neutral bystander is their enemy. Same goes for UN international peacekeepers. Both sides on the way feel the UN is against them.

You don't even see the contradiction in your statement, do you?

"From Baha'i view, this is the truth ... " By definition, a view is not the truth, it's just a view, and can either be the truth or not. From the Baha'i perspective, the Baha'i view is always the truth. It cannot be wrong. But from any neutral perspective, and viewpoint, especially on such controversial matters, it might be right, and might be wrong.

 

[Vinayaka]

Did they but realise it, but cherry-picking is the most negative of practices. It can even become wicked. Much worse than the Bahais are the right wing, fundie Christians who can point to their bibles to prove how gunning down tresspassers or nuking Mecca is an holy action.


You noticed. (!). At the point where Bahai might be losing ground posts can become personal, suggesting bad mind, or 'triumphal' opinions, etc.
It does not help the Bahai 'brand'.

must go............ dinner!

Have a bite for me. Yes I've noticed it getting personal too. Oh well.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I read that one too. It's an open site where any and all stories can be published. I looked at the whole, and didn't just select the most negative one to post here. But of course it's your right to pick the one that is the most true to the Baha'i agenda and re-post it here. Cherry picking is a well known pattern of behaviour.

But the point I'm trying to make here is that most non-Baha'i and ex-Baha'i aren't the evil negative lying manipulators of truth they're made out to be here. They're people, with legitimate stories of why they left. I don't think anyone can really understand it unless they're in the middle of it. Just as anyone outside of Iran doesn't truly get the Baha'i persecution there, so too does anyone with no personal connections to it understand what it must be like to be a gay Baha'i. You'd need to have a gay child, and hopefully, actual love would prevail.

I offered a story from a person that was Gay who found it is possible with the Spirit of God in your heart to make sense of the Law of Baha'u'llah. It was a decision not based in His own self, but for the Good of all. Again Good on Him.

I also looked at a wide selection of the stories, not all I read, but a great deal were self based stories. Others were still finding their own selves.

I do have a Son that is Gay, has not chosen to be a Bahai and I love Him to bits. I need say no more.

In offering this Faith, you will note we only offer Love in mutual respect to find our common ground, all the while most people just try to show how wrong we are in choosing Baha'u'llahs World Embracing Vision for Humanity.

Yes the constant barrage of we are so different is but highly negative. We are not so different, we are all human and are Humanity. Are you willing to let go of some of your preconceived ideas to find that unity, it is only found in God and His Word.

You will find that in the journey to become a Baha'i many predudices and preconceived ideas have already been dropped in that acceptance, and I can tell you I have found we all still have many more to be rid of.

I see and appreciate the difficulty this poses for you, I came from no preconceived Ideas about God and Faith, my barriers were and are different. My mother is a Born Again Christain, this becomes a great blinder to Christ all embracing Love. My Father an Athiest, another blinder to an all embracing Love.

I see only One Message that is all embracing, all inclusive that is practiced in this world today, and that is not predudice, it is lived. That is Gods Messages that people have chosen to use exclusively as their only way to God.

Baha'u'llah has offered from God, that we use His Word in an all embracing Unity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's very true, and the very reason we only have about 5 million Bahai's on a planet of 7 billion. So around one in a thousand has accepted it.

That is Prophecy. It happens at the Dawn of each Message given by God.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes the constant barrage of we are so different is but highly negative.

If you want to see differences as always negative, then that is up to you. This is a debate forum. Again, if you want to discuss Baha'i with an uninterrupted Baha'i positive flow, you are totally free to put your posts in the Baha'i DIR, where any 'negative' people wouldn't be allowed to post.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is Prophecy. It happens at the Dawn of each Message given by God.

Yes, that is the Baha'i view. Many other sects, and small religions who considered their 'message' or 'prophet' as the new messiah, have long since been dissolved into oblivion. Yes, you are free to believe whatever you wish to, but so are others free to believe otherwise.

Of course all prophet based sects have to start small. That's just common sense.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yep...... No probs.
Already married to one wife before, and being a Babi and undersatanding the Babis legislation for a max of two wives, he went ahead and married two further wives regardless.Link:-

I will provide an answer to this supplied on the Baha'i Forum, as this subject does require a well researched understanding.

One question about Baha'u'llah - Baha'i Forums

Hope that helps in your understanding of this subject.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

IT, thanks, I prefer to look at all sides of any debate. I'm an outsider. Can you even look at all sides, or are you not allowed, or do you have a psychological barrier to it?

Contrary to what you might believe, there are other POVs outside of the Baha'i POV. There exists the possibility that they might hold some validity too. Just as there is the belief in infallibility, (always and completely true) I suppose there is the other side, that being always completely and totally false. I'm neutral. I realise that isn't good enough. It's like in a schoolyard fight where both combatants feel the neutral bystander is their enemy. Same goes for UN international peacekeepers. Both sides on the way feel the UN is against them.

You don't even see the contradiction in your statement, do you?

"From Baha'i view, this is the truth ... " By definition, a view is not the truth, it's just a view, and can either be the truth or not. From the Baha'i perspective, the Baha'i view is always the truth. It cannot be wrong. But from any neutral perspective, and viewpoint, especially on such controversial matters, it might be right, and might be wrong.

The central Figures of the Baha'i Faith had said that They are revealing the very truth from God for the people of this Age and I am presenting Their message as is. But They did not ask people to just accept Them blindly. They have said everyone is supposed to investigate the claims of Bahaullah.

 

[Vinayaka]

They have said everyone is supposed to investigate the claims of Bahaullah.

So now you're telling us we should investigate. Why? What if we don't care, or as in my case already have a religion that is fulfilling my every spiritual need and more?

There is absolutely no meed for every Tom Dick, and Harry to investigate some 19th century guy who claimed he was mankind's saviour.

Am I asking you to investigate my faith? (If anything, I'll tell you to stay away.)

 

[oldbadger]

"From Baha'i view, this is the truth ... " By definition, a view is not the truth, it's just a view, and can either be the truth or not. From the Baha'i perspective, the Baha'i view is always the truth. It cannot be wrong. But from any neutral perspective, and viewpoint, especially on such controversial matters, it might be right, and might be wrong.

There it is.
If a gathering of various believers would meet, and explain to the assembly what they individually believed and introduced their Greatest Beings and Gods, fine.

But some would not do that. They would have to ask, 'How can your Great Beings be explained?'.... and then tell all about how the whole assembly's beliefs, Great Beings and Gods must lead 'ballyhai! ballyhai! Fanfare!' to their own!

And so, instead of an introduction, you get a 'sell', or evangelism, or proselysing, and as you know I don't mind 'sells', not even door-step ones, not even if the evangelists are trailing little kiddies wiv 'em ( ); but when the sell is full of apparent false claims, and I believe I'm being deceived, well in that case I feel that I do have the right to shake the tree, just a little.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So now you're telling us we should investigate. Why? What if we don't care, or as in my case already have a religion that is fulfilling my every spiritual need and more?

There is absolutely no meed for every Tom Dick, and Harry to investigate some 19th century guy who claimed he was mankind's saviour.

Am I asking you to investigate my faith? (If anything, I'll tell you to stay away.)

If you think you know of something good, should you not share it with others? Nobody forces anybody.

 

[oldbadger]

I do have a Son that is Gay, has not chosen to be a Bahai and I love Him to bits. I need say no more.

Thankyou for sharing that info. That must have been difficult, at first, when he told you.
Thankyou again.

I used to deliver yachts, back in the day. My crew, a local barber with three sons and a daughter had been a rent boy in Soho in his youth. He knew so many famous names, and a well known Lord who owned a motor museum used to let my friend drive ancient cars around the museum grounds. His marriage came about because a wealthy Dutch Bank Director liked him so much that he took him back to Holland and installed him in his own place. One day this wealthy man had a problem.... his 16yrs young daughter had to go to England on a holiday swap with an English girl. How could he see his daughter safe through the entire fortnight's trip? Of course, his lover was gay, and knew England backwards, and could escort her there and back. How easy!
But she never left England. Never went home to Holland after that school-holiday swap. She married the English rent boy, and they had those four children, all with Dutch first names.
That was the thing........ he was bisexual. He's a grandad now with umpteen grandkids.

 

[Vinayaka]

I believe I'm being deceived, well in that case I feel that I do have the right to shake the tree, just a little.

But when you dare shake that tree, you're being negative. I could drive past the Baha'i center (as I have before, it's on a main street) in this town and be accused of being negative for not stopping.