How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

I would rather be in the minority and follow truth than have all the power and wealth in the world. True wealth is to have Certitude.

Lots of people have certitude in their religious beliefs. If the Baha'is are correct, all of them have certitude in wrong beliefs and interpretations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Lots of people have certitude in their religious beliefs. If the Baha'is are correct, all of them have certitude in wrong beliefs and interpretations.

If all the Great Beings are who they said they are you have the same situation in each age. There is also mass rejection and mockery in response to their guidance in each age. That should be sufficiant warning that we never revert to this tactic ourselves, as all mockery will have reprocussions.

Stay happy and I hope you find what you are looking for CG.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha was not in any way intended as prophetic. It is the charter for the Baha'i Administrative order and 20 - 30 page document needs to be understood as a whole. In that context, Abdu'l-Baha is simply making provision for the possibility of a future of Guardian(s). This was not possible as Shoghi Effendi had no children. The Will and Testament also elaborates on the Universal House of Justice as one of the twin successors of Abdu'l-Baha, along with the Guardianship.

What did Shoghi Effendi say in his will?

 

[CG Didymus]

If all the Great Beings are who they said they are you have the same situation in each age. There is also mass rejection and mockery in response to their guidance in each age. That should be sufficiant warning that we never revert to this tactic ourselves, as all mockery will have reprocussions.

Stay happy and I hope you find what you are looking for CG.

Regards Tony

I'm not talking about those that rejected them. In the case of Jesus, the believers had certitude that Jesus rose from the dead and that the devil and hell are real. All false beliefs if the Baha'is are right.

 

[siti]

Another explanation:

One purpose of Baha'u'llah's Tablets was to provide an opportunity for the Kings and rulers whom He wrote to avoid the impending chaos and convulsions that were to engulf many kingdoms (ie WWI). The leaders He addressed were all involved to some extent in WWI while Spain, China, and Japan were not directly involved.

Spain remained neutral, China supported the Allies by supplying thousands of labourers and officially declared war on Germany in 1917, Japan was most definitely directly involved opposing Germany directly in the Pacific and China and helping Britain suppress the Singapore mutiny in 1915. Japan was both officially and actively at war with Germany throughout the war - though admittedly on a much smaller scale than the European nations.

In any case, I did mention dozens of other Kingdoms - I could have chosen Italy whose Kingdom (recently established in Baha'u'llah's time) was to go through similar convulsions as its European neighbours and was deeply involved in WWI - at least after they took a while to figure out which side to be on. Given their waveringly neutral stance in the early phase of the war, perhaps a direct prophetic message from Baha'u'llah might have been the very thing to encourage a more resolute neutrality throughout - but Baha'u'llah had nothing for the King of Italy - despite the fact that Victor Emmanuel II had sided with France in Crimea, was to die an untimely death in 1878 and be succeeded by his son Umberto who was assassinated in 1900 after allying Italy with the Kaiser's Germany and Franz-Josef's Austro-Hungary. Plenty for Baha'u'llah to get his prophetic warning teeth into there - but he never said a word about Italy.

 

[CG Didymus]

In Prophecy a 'Prophet' is known by 'His Fruits'. The Choice Fruits are their own person and Lives, their Fruits match their words.

The Faith goes through the seasons of spring, summer, autumn and then winter.

All Faiths have their Summer in the age they were given and that is when they reach the apex of humanities capacity in that age. This is the time when the Tree of the Messenger also bears the fruit of those that have grasped the intent of Gods Word.

This age will see the entire Human Race reach a Unity yet to be envisaged by men on earth.

Regards Tony

Since Islam got going in 622, when was the summer, fall and winter of Christianity?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not talking about those that rejected them. In the case of Jesus, the believers had certitude that Jesus rose from the dead and that the devil and hell are real. All false beliefs if the Baha'is are right.

Consider Muhammad corrected those views in the Koran in the 600's.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Spain remained neutral, China supported the Allies by supplying thousands of labourers and officially declared war on Germany in 1917, Japan was most definitely directly involved opposing Germany directly in the Pacific and China and helping Britain suppress the Singapore mutiny in 1915. Japan was both officially and actively at war with Germany throughout the war - though admittedly on a much smaller scale than the European nations.

In any case, I did mention dozens of other Kingdoms - I could have chosen Italy whose Kingdom (recently established in Baha'u'llah's time) was to go through similar convulsions as its European neighbours and was deeply involved in WWI - at least after they took a while to figure out which side to be on. Given their waveringly neutral stance in the early phase of the war, perhaps a direct prophetic message from Baha'u'llah might have been the very thing to encourage a more resolute neutrality throughout - but Baha'u'llah had nothing for the King of Italy - despite the fact that Victor Emmanuel II had sided with France in Crimea, was to die an untimely death in 1878 and be succeeded by his son Umberto who was assassinated in 1900 after allying Italy with the Kaiser's Germany and Franz-Josef's Austro-Hungary. Plenty for Baha'u'llah to get his prophetic warning teeth into there - but he never said a word about Italy.

Perhaps when Baha'u'llah wrote to Pope Pius IX in 1869 He felt He had Italy covered.

Pope Pius IX - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

What did Shoghi Effendi say in his will?

That's a good question.
Shoghi Effendi didn't leave a will.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since Islam got going in 622, when was the summer, fall and winter of Christianity?

Christianity was in winter by 622 as scripture had been replaced by doctrine made by man.

Perhaps when Baha'u'llah wrote to Pope Pius IX in 1869 He felt He had Italy covered.

Pope Pius IX - Wikipedia

This tablet to the Pope is powerful and in reality covers all in Authority, especillay those that hold the reigns of Faith in their hands;

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Why use a number that is a result of a transcription error? 666 is the correct number.

If 666 is the correct number why do Baha'is have to add 5 years to 661AD to get to 666?

 

[CG Didymus]

Consider Muhammad corrected those views in the Koran in the 600's.

Regards Tony

What did Muhammad teach about the resurrection of Jesus and about the Devil and hell?

 

[CG Didymus]

Christianity was in winter by 622 as scripture had been replaced by doctrine made by man.




This tablet to the Pope is powerful and in reality covers all in Authority, especillay those that hold the reigns of Faith in their hands;

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

When was its summer and autumn and when and what do you see as the start of the winter

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What did Muhammad teach about the resurrection of Jesus and about the Devil and hell?

The same thing Jesus did, though when man gets hold if it, it could be seen as He did not.

Luckily as Promised, Baha'u'llah has cleared this all up for us.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When was its summer and autumn and when and what do you see as the start of the winter

You need to be free of our ideas and look at this all for yourself.

The information you have to date is an information overload, it is now hard for you to see the forrest because of the trees.

Stand back, first consider if there is One God for all Humanity, this is the foundation to understand all else.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Lots of people have certitude in their religious beliefs. If the Baha'is are correct, all of them have certitude in wrong beliefs and interpretations.

All these folks who have certitude about their faiths.
.... Don't make sense to me.
I've never heard of the Bahai Certitude.

 

[oldbadger]

Stand back, first consider if there is One God for all Humanity, this is the foundation to understand all else.

This idea is absurd.
It's like a colony of termites on a mound in a wilderness reckoning that God put everything in place, just for them.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ah! So if I put a sign up saying "beware of the dog" and someone wanders in anyway, gets bitten and does not get the wound treated finally dying of a severe infection from the untreated bite, my sign should be interpreted as a specific prophecy of the manner of the person's death and the suffering that it brought to his family?

As I said, there was no specific prophecy about the death or downfall of either the Romanov Czars or the Hohenzollern Dynasty in Germany.

Anyway, as a point of interest, can you give me the reference for the original source of that Abdu'l Baha quote - you have referenced a 1976 book but if Abdu'l Baha wrote that it must have been between the end of WWI and his death in 1921 otherwise those kingdoms were still in place.

I wonder if any of these guys ever read any of the 'warnings'.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If 666 is the correct number why do Baha'is have to add 5 years to 661AD to get to 666?

666 is the number of years passed from Birth of Christ. 661AD does not mean 661 after birth of Christ. Christian Calender is off by 5 years. Many Christians know that too. Ask them please.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

IT, your comprehension skills are sadly lacking. Bismarck wrote about the fall of the German Empire a year BEFORE he died and predicted that it would happen 20 years AFTER his death. It was a lucky guess based on his interpretation of past history and current events. Baha'u'llah does exactly the same in less specific terms about a small number of (not "many") countries. In fact lets list them (bearing in mind he wrote them between 1867 and 1873):

The Ottoman Vizier Mehmed Emin Ali Pasha - with whom Baha'u'llah was decidedly displeased on account of Pasha's mistreatment of Baha'is...he died in 1871...

The Sultan Abdul Aziz who Baha'u'llah predicted that God would "take hold of"...he was deposed in 1876 and died (apparently by suicide) the same year...

The Ottoman Empire continued until 1922.

Naser al-Din Shah Qajar - as far as I know no specific prophecies but this Shah was assassinated in 1896. The Qajar dynasty continued in power until 1921 and the monarchy of Persia finally came to the end of its 2500 year history with Iranian Revolution in 1979 (no mention of that in Baha'u'llah's writings as far as I know).

Czar Alexander II - who got three "bewares" - but no specific predictions - in his tablet from Baha'u'llah, was assassinated in 1881 but his dynasty lasted until the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. The Romanovs had ruled Russia for 300 years.

Queen Victoria - who was commended for abolishing slavery and entrusting rulership to parliamentary democracy - no specific prophecies were made. There were also three "bewares" in the tablet addressed to her but in paragraphs that address monarchs generally. She died in 1901 and her Empire is gone but her United Kingdom remains (albeit tenuously) as a constitutional monarchy nowadays more accurately described as a "Disunited Queendom" - a small and increasingly insignificant island nation off the coast of Europe. She herself was the last Monarch of the House of Hanover, so in that sense, although the Kingdom passed to her direct descendants, the Hanoverian dynasty of rulers of Britain actually died out before the Qajars in Iran, the Romanovs in Russia, the Habsburg-Lorraines in Austria or the Hohenzollerns in Germany.

Napoleon III - the latest in a long line of rulers of France which had endured 80 years of continuous political turmoil and instability with scores of rulers having been deposed, guillotined and other wise disposed of. More of the same was prophesied in general terms. Baha'u'llah was pissed with him for pretending to come to the aid of the innocent in the Crimean War but not paying attention to the suffering of the Babis. In fact, Napoleon's motive was to garner Catholic support at home in view of his waning popularity. His kingdom fell in 1870 after his disastrous decision to go to war with Prussia and he died in 1873 in exile. The "Second Empire" of which he was the monarch had lasted a little under 18 years.

Kaiser Wilhelm I - prophecies of a similar fate to Napoleon III and the "Banks of the Rhine covered with gore". Kaiser Wilhelm I lived to the age of 90 and died of natural causes. His heirs in the house of Hohenzollern continued to rule the German Empire until its collapse in 1918. His grandson - the last ruler of German Empire, Wilhelm II, died in 1941 in comfortable exile in Holland whilst another branch of the Hohenzollern family continued to rule Romania until 1947. The last Hohenzollern King, Michael I of Romania - whose grandmother Marie responded positively to the Baha'i teachings in the 1920s - died a few days ago. Marie presumably didn't get the chance to convert the then King, Ferdinand I before he died of cancer in 1927, otherwise he might have turned out to be the monarch that is prophesied as a supporter of "the Cause". Oh well!

Pope Pius IX - like the Czar, he got three "bewares" but no specifics. He died in 1878 of natural causes at the age of 85 and remains the longest serving elected Pope in history. The Papacy continues to rule in the palatial splendor of the Vatican to this day.

Emperor Franz Josef of Austria - Baha'u'llah ticked him off for not popping in to say hello when he was in Jerusalem. Abdu'l Baha (apparently) interpreted this as a prophecy of the downfall of his kingdom. Franz Josef remains the second longest reigning monarch in European history - he outlived Queen Victoria by 15 years and died in 1916 at the age of 86. The Austro-Hungarian Empire fell with its German allies at the end of the First World War.

Have I missed any?

Before I make a reply to these, you should reply to all my points in the same post. It seems you have not read the whole rest of it or did not want to reply to them. I think had you read them, you would find a reply to most of your new ideas listed here. But I think the most important thing was to recognize that Bahaullah wrote to 7 of the Rulers. To 6 of them, He wrote in one way or another that their kingdom is not approved by God. To some He wrote there will be a punishment, or that God shall soon 'cease' him. Only to one of them, Bahaullah did not say these punishing and rebuking words. That was the Queen of England, to whom He wrote Her kingdom will receive strength. Now, look at the history, and today. All those kingdoms Bahaullah did not approve them, and said they be fallen, are gone completely, whereas the Kingdom of the Queen has remained. Nothing bad happened to it. This is an undeniable fact. If you think it happened in this way through a lucky guess, it is obvious no body could have guessed at the time of Bahaullah such a thing. It was a process that it went through, as you know even several years after Bahaullah, Kingdom of Germany got even stronger, but eventually it lost.

Another point is, I think we should read more carefully the statements of Bahaullah to each one of them, as in each case Bahaullah uses a different words. For instance to one of them He wrote God will 'cease' him soon. This can precisely mean, God will take his soul and cause him to die soon. So did it come to pass. In that case it was such an unexpected death that came to that ruler. Whereas in some other instances, He did not say God will soon cease him. In another case He even said, God will be patient with him. Now, read those more closely and carefully, and see if you find His word compatible with what and how soon it happened or not.

Czar Alexander II - who got three "bewares" - but no specific predictions - in his tablet from Baha'u'llah, was assassinated in 1881 but his dynasty lasted until the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917. The Romanovs had ruled Russia for 300 years.

This is part of the Tablet Bahaullah wrote to Czar II:
"Think ye that the things ye possess shall profit you? Soon others will possess them and ye will return unto the dust with none to help or succour you."

Queen Victoria - who was commended for abolishing slavery and entrusting rulership to parliamentary democracy - no specific prophecies were made. There were also three "bewares" in the tablet addressed to her but in paragraphs that address monarchs generally. She died in 1901 and her Empire is gone but her United Kingdom remains (albeit tenuously) as a constitutional monarchy nowadays more accurately described as a "Disunited Queendom" - a small and increasingly insignificant island nation off the coast of Europe. She herself was the last Monarch of the House of Hanover, so in that sense, although the Kingdom passed to her direct descendants, the Hanoverian dynasty of rulers of Britain actually died out before the Qajars in Iran, the Romanovs in Russia, the Habsburg-Lorraines in Austria or the Hohenzollerns in Germany.

This is part of the Tablet to the Queen:

"We have also heard that thou hast entrusted the reins of counsel into the hands of the representatives of the people. Thou, indeed, hast done well, for thereby the foundations of the edifice of thine affairs will be strengthened..."

See? Bahaullah only told the Queen that the foundation of the edifice of her affairs will be strengthened. But did He say the same to other kings?

Are these not prophecies?