How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Is it the Word of God given to us by God's prophet/manifestation?

That's right. The Bab announced He was preparing His followers for the Promised One whose revelation would eclipse His own.

The Bábí Movement | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, if you are correct... it is a false religion that believes in myth and fantasy.

The Baha'i writings are very positive about Christ, seeing Him as a Manifestation of God or one of the Great Beings in the OP. If you can find Baha'i writings that label Christ as a false prophets or His religion as false and fantasy, I'd be keen to hear.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 16-17

 

[Dawnofhope]

Anyway I'm going to go play my guitar now. I think I'll sing "It's the end of the world as we know it".

You mean the REM song? The chorus goes something like, its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. Do you feel fine?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I get a little less than 100%. Rev 11:3 The two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days. V 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast kills them, both of them. V9 Their bodies lie in the street for 3 1/2 days, then come to life. So if the two witnesses are Muhammad and Ali, they do their thing for the 1260 days/years... of course lunar years. If we start at 622 AD, that takes us to 1844. They are then killed by the beast and lie in the street for the 3 1/2 days... or another 1260 years.

So far correct. I do not see any problem.

But then we have the red dragon in the next chapter. So the beast is the Ummayad dynasty and I think one of you said the dragon was the Abbasid dynasty? Is that right?

No, The beast of Chapter 12 is Umayyad.

Then in chapter 13 a beast comes out of the sea and has authority to act for forty two months, or your 1260 years. This beast is the one with the fatal wound in one of the heads. But this beast is given power by the dragon? So if the beast is the Ummayads, then no, they didn't get their power from the Abbasids.

Where did you get the idea that the dragon is Abbasids?

Then in Rev 13:11 another beast. This one makes everyone worship the beast with the fatal wound. Which you say is the Ummayads and the wounded head is the Ummayad leader that went to Andalusia.

I did not say this. The Baha'i Scriptures have not given interpretation of the Revelation from beginning to the End. We do not have an official interpretation of chapter 13. My personal take is, the beast who is like Lamb, might be the Safavids, who started Shia sect in Persia. Later this Shia sect continued to rule in Persia till the Manifestation of the Bab. I explain this before. So if you keep forgetting, what is my fault?

But because the new beast makes everyone worship the first beast, the Ummayads, this beast cannot not be one of the Ummayads... right? So who is it?

I don't think the beast who came out of sea is Umayyads. If you remember we already discussed this. Umayyids did not rule for 1260 years. This beast rules for 1260 years. As I said before, I think the beast who came out of sea is the false Islam, which includes Umayyids, and later continued through Abbasids, and continued eventually through Ottoman Empire. We already discussed the false Islam ended in the year 1260 AH, because what is intended by Islam, is the Religion of God, not specifically only Religion of Muhammad. If you ask Muslims, they will tell you, Religion of Moses was Islam. They will tell you, the Religion of Jesus was also Islam. Because, in Quran there is only One Religion. Whenever the Islam got corrupted it needed to be renewed. This is the reason, in Islam, it is promised that the Mahdi will re-establish Islam. This is why in our view, when the Bab appeared, He established a new Islam, just as Moses who had established an older form of Islam.

No matter who you say, if it's not the Ummayads, you're going to be wrong, because this is the beast that has the number 666. So, somehow, you have to make the last beast the Ummayads to fit in your 666 AD date.

We already talked about this. Sometimes I feel as if all things we said was forgotten my friend.

So no, no, no... not a chance for 100%. You get a one time "right on" for 1260, but you reuse it so many times, you make it ridiculous. Multiple uses of 1260 days, plus 3 1/2 days and forty two months and do you use a time and times and half a time too? I think you do. All of them you make into the same 1260 lunar years from the Hegira to the Bab's declaration in 1844? So you have a few strong prophecies, but then you had to add the weakest and most contrived ones too? Sorry, but it blows your credibility. With the way the world is going right now, the Christian interpretation of Revelation is just as likely to be true. Anyway I'm going to go play my guitar now. I think I'll sing "It's the end of the world as we know it".

Enjoy your guitar.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The infallibility includes Abdu'l Baha also?

Yes, as well as Shoghi Effendi and Universal House of Justice. But infallibility does not necessarily mean to be all-knowing. Only Baha'u'llah was All-knowing. Abdulbaha was the Mystery of God. He achieved the highest station a man can reach. Whatever He wrote was the very truth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha'u'llah never did 'as He pleased' but was totally submissive to the Will of God.

Regarding the wives of Bahá'u'lláh, extracts from letters written on behalf of the beloved Guardian set this subject in context. They indicate that Bahá'u'lláh was "acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded", and that He was following "the customs of the people of His own land":

Wives of Baha'u'llah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, but are they lunar years?

No 666 solar years.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Baha'u'llah never did 'as He pleased' but was totally submissive to the Will of God.

Regarding the wives of Bahá'u'lláh, extracts from letters written on behalf of the beloved Guardian set this subject in context. They indicate that Bahá'u'lláh was "acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded", and that He was following "the customs of the people of His own land":

Wives of Baha'u'llah

It is always a question for me. Are the letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi considered Authoritative?
It seems to me, these letters were written by others, who verbally had asked a question and received an answer from Shoghi Effendi. To my understanding when the Bab appeared, the Laws of Islam was abrogated by the Laws of Bayan.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Now we are getting somewhere!
You must feel to be very much on the back foot to finally, at last, ditch all the silly excuses and arguments, and just tell us that:
Manifestations of God can do what they like!

Sounds more like the temptation that was put to Jesus.

Even the many of the Laws that Bahaullah has revealed may not be enforced by the Universal House of Justice. The UHJ gets to decide what Laws are applicable in which country. For instance in the Book of Aqdas it is stated, that the engagement cannot be more than 95 days. Once a a girl and a boy are engaged, they must marry within 95 days. UHJ has not applied this law to many of the western countries. Currently only the eastern Baha'is must obey this Law. Now consider that, therefor we cannot say, the Manifestation of God cannot choose when the Laws of God should be followed by His own self.
There is a good story too. A man was told by Bahaullah to eat during the month of Baha'i fast. The man told Bahaullah, but we are asked by God to fast at this point. Bahaullah told Him, the One who told you to fast, now tells you do not.

Bahaullah acted according to the Laws of Islam, because in that location and time, the Laws of the Bab or Aqdas had not been applicable. To object that God does not know where and when His own laws are to be applied, is not very seemly to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It is always a question for me. Are the letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi considered Authoritative?
It seems to me, these letters were written by others, who verbally had asked a question and received an answer from Shoghi Effendi. To my understanding when the Bab appeared, the Laws of Islam was abrogated by the Laws of Bayan.

Its an interesting discussion that has caused some confusion amongst Baha'is from reviewing a few other discussion groups.

The letter I quoted was also quoted by the Universal House of Justice.

Wives of Baha'u'llah

Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian

Many of the laws in the Bayan were never enacted nor enforced.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Its an interesting discussion that has caused some confusion amongst Baha'is from reviewing a few other discussion groups.

The letter I quoted was also quoted by the Universal House of Justice.

Wives of Baha'u'llah

Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian

Many of the laws in the Bayan were never enacted nor enforced.

Some of the letters of Universal House of Justice were not written by themselves. Someone has written on their behalf. If this one is also written on behalf of UHJ, then I am not sure if it can be considered authoritative. I think it can be used as overall guidance, but there is still the possibility of additions of personal opinions to it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Some of the letters of Universal House of Justice were not written by themselves. Someone has written on their behalf. If this one is also written on behalf of UHJ, then I am not sure if it can be considered authoritative. I think it can be used as overall guidance, but there is still the possibility of additions of personal opinions to it.

I find it useful to consider the history of Christianity and the time it took to consider to what extent the Mosaic law should be abrogated. Even Paul and Peter couldn't agree amonst themselves.

I think the Baha'is laws on marriage couldn't possibly have come into effect prior to the Kitab-Aqdas, and then it required Abdu'l-Baha to elucidate that monogamy was intended.

If a man lawfully married to more than one wife becomes a Baha'i, the marriages stand.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is always a question for me. Are the letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi considered Authoritative?
It seems to me, these letters were written by others, who verbally had asked a question and received an answer from Shoghi Effendi. To my understanding when the Bab appeared, the Laws of Islam was abrogated by the Laws of Bayan.

You need to read this link - Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian

"In a postscript appended to a letter dated 7 December 1930, written on his behalf to an individual believer, Shoghi Effendi described the normal procedure he followed in dealing with correspondence written on his behalf:

I wish to add and say that whatever letters are sent in my behalf from Haifa are all read and approved by me before mailing. There is no exception whatever to this rule.

Given the Guardian's categorical assertion, it follows that any "exception" to "this rule" would require his explicit permission. For example, in the latter years of his ministry, Shoghi Effendi assigned to the Hand of the Cause Leroy Ioas the special responsibility for monitoring the progress of the goals of the Ten Year Crusade. In implementing this specific function, Mr. Ioas worked under the close supervision of the Guardian; however, not all of his letters–for example, those simply requesting information about the goals–were viewed by Shoghi Effendi before being transmitted."

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

But why do the Baha'is even make the mark or number of the beast a date? Christians always told it was the numeric value of the letters in a person's name. Many Christians said it referred to Nero. Which, if true, changes everything. It would make the Baha'i interpretation of Revelation completely off.

Bahai seems to do what Orwell's Big Brother did........... history that fits can stay, history that conflicts must go.

I never thought that Bahai would show itself thus; I admit that I could never accept it because it had a Theistic Deity, but it seemed harmless enough, back then.

 

[oldbadger]

.......................... "What is God doing?" I know, I know... He doeth as he pleaseth.

God doeth what s/he doeth.
The news has reported that an asteroid passed unusually close to us in the last few days. S/he doeth what s/he doeth. No pleasure or displeasure in it with my God.

Nature is chaos.

 

[oldbadger]

What? Can you send me some pictures anyway? Jesus told me that imaging it is like doing it. I don't know if I believe him, but it's probably close enough.

You wanted my picture?
I'm just so touched by....... oh, my Missus is looking over and said that you want to see Mrs Wainwrights.
Oh..... well ..... in that case...........
This was taken before she applied her make-up, you understand:-

 

[oldbadger]

Forget it, I'm giving in to temptation. The Baha'is say if you see the most beautiful woman in the world, the spiritual man won't even turn to look at her. Who does that? Forget it. If Baha'u'llah can marry 'em, I'm looking.

.....the spiritual man...... !
A key Bahai Buzzword....... sounds god but with absolutely no depth within it at all.

I think that the Bahai repetition of the word 'spiritual' is the one word that I need to get used to hearing without feeling irritated by its continual double-think.

 

[oldbadger]

Sounds like a few of the kings of England to me. And a few other despots through history.

Good point.
Henry VIII walking around the gardens at Westminster and waiting to hear the cannon that would signal the beheading of Anne ....... the good news that he was single again. Yes, he considered himself above any laws.

 

[oldbadger]

Regarding the wives of Bahá'u'lláh, extracts from letters written on behalf of the beloved Guardian set this subject in context. They indicate that Bahá'u'lláh was "acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded", and that He was following "the customs of the people of His own land":

The timeline of Bahauallah's marriages and the declaration of his Babi Faith show that he was not acting according to the laws of Islam when he married his second and third wife..... :

1835 Bahauallah marries Navvab
1845 Bahauallah joins the Babi Faith
1849 Bahauallah marries Fatimih

1853 Bahauallah marries Gawhar in Baghdad
1863 Bahauallah Declares himself

 

[Dawnofhope]

The timeline of Bahauallah's marriages and the declaration of his Babi Faith show that he was not acting according to the laws of Islam when he married his second and third wife..... :

1835 Bahauallah marries Navvab
1845 Bahauallah joins the Babi Faith
1849 Bahauallah marries Fatimih

1853 Bahauallah marries Gawhar in Baghdad
1863 Bahauallah Declares himself

Islamic law permits up to four wives.

Any laws the Bab had revealed in regards to marriage were not binding.