How are these Great Beings explained?

[oldbadger]

Islamic law permits up to four wives.

Any laws the Bab had revealed in regards to marriage were not binding.

What do you think impartial, detached observers will think of all this?

 

[Dawnofhope]

What do you think impartial, detached observers will think of all this?

An impartial, detached observer will go the trouble of checking the facts and not jump to conclusions to suit his own agenda.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Think about it for a minute, seriously.

(1) The Baha'i writings are explicit that the laws in the Bayan required Baha'u'llah's endorsement.

(2) There are still civil requirements for a marriage to be legal. Marriages between Babis and later Baha'is still need to be recognised by the government and law.

(3) The law in regard to how many wives a Babi or Baha'i could have, is just one of many aspects of marriage. The Babi religion simply didn't have the institutional capacity to be administering their own marriage. As Babis were being massacred and driven underground, arranging 'Babi weddings' would hardly be considered a priority.

 

[oldbadger]

An impartial, detached observer will go the trouble of checking the facts and not jump to conclusions to suit his own agenda.

Oh!....... you think any of us questionners has an agenda!
Really!
And you think we jump to conclusions?

We've been checking the facts.............. those that we could find................

 

[oldbadger]

Think about it for a minute, seriously.

I'm thinkin'...... seriously.

(1) The Baha'i writings are explicit that the laws in the Bayan required Baha'u'llah's endorsement.

When Bahauallah was a Babi here were no Bahai writings. Think about it.

(2) There are still civil requirements for a marriage to be legal. Marriages between Babis and later Baha'is still need to be recognised by the government and law.

Yep.
I don't want three wives.
But Bahauallah did........ Think about it.

(3) The law in regard to how many wives a Babi or Baha'i could have, is just one of many aspects of marriage. The Babi religion simply didn't have the institutional capacity to be administering their own marriage. As Babis were being massacred and driven underground, arranging 'Babi weddings' would hardly be considered a priority.

A Babi marriage probably took as little-time as one minute, if cut to the bone.
The Babi law was the Babi law, writ large, the Divine Words of God as passed through his Ordained Prophet, if what you claim is true.

This, like so many other issues discussed upon this thread, is mostly about the meaning, the integrity and value of various Great Beings.

I have learned a lot about Bahai on this thread, but I honestly don't think that Bahai has shown itself in any good light here.

 

[Vinayaka]

Good point.
Henry VIII walking around the gardens at Westminster and waiting to hear the cannon that would signal the beheading of Anne ....... the good news that he was single again. Yes, he considered himself above any laws.

Power corrupts.

 

[Vinayaka]

Think about it for a minute, seriously.

That's a shoddy request. Surely you've seen a dispute (you on the outside) where both sides declared the other side wasn't giving it any thought. It's meaningless emotional reaction of attachment.

"If you only looked into MY religion in a serious way, you'd see how wonderful it is."

There is no option of standing back and just looking at things dispassionately from a distance?

 

[oldbadger]

That's a shoddy request. Surely you've seen a dispute (you on the outside) where both sides declared the other side wasn't giving it any thought. It's meaningless emotional reaction of attachment.

"If you only looked into MY religion in a serious way, you'd see how wonderful it is."

There is no option of standing back and just looking at things dispassionately from a distance?

Maybe some beliefs cause the believer to lose balance, detachment and freedom-of-thought........ it's a kind of imprisonment, I nearly wrote 'spiritual imprisonment' but that word has been damaged for me just now.

I'm lucky. My belief desires no urgent need to sell itself, no need to prove itself, already includes all but in a quiet undemonstrative way and does not prohibit free-search.
It just is.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The timeline of Bahauallah's marriages and the declaration of his Babi Faith show that he was not acting according to the laws of Islam when he married his second and third wife..... :

1835 Bahauallah marries Navvab
1845 Bahauallah joins the Babi Faith
1849 Bahauallah marries Fatimih

1853 Bahauallah marries Gawhar in Baghdad
1863 Bahauallah Declares himself

You know that, when the Bab manifested in the year 1844, He did not change any of the Laws of Islam during the first 4-5 years. The first time that the Bab started to change the Laws of Islam, and replace them with the new Laws of the Bab'i Faith, was when He revealed the Book of Bayan in the year 1848, while He was imprisoned in the Mountain of Maku.
Persian Bayán - Wikipedia

For obvious reason, the Book of Laws, could not be spread among all the Bab'is unless some years could pass. Even today when a book is written, by the time it is published and spread, it takes time, let alone, in the 19th century, and considering the Bab'is were almost exterminated.
Later, in the same year (1848) the Bab'is gathered in a conference called, the conference of Badasht. In this conference the Bab'is had many arguments, with regards to the nature of the Bab's Revelation. Their disagreement was whether the Bab's revelation is to be considered a separate religion from Muhammad's or it must be considered the true Islam. It was in this conference that the Bab'is just realized the Faith of the Bab is a new Faith.
"The conference of Badasht is considered by Bábís and Bahá'ís as a signal moment that demonstrated that Islamic Sharia law had been abrogated and superseded by Bábí law.."
Conference of Badasht - Wikipedia

The point is, the Laws of the Bab did not really get much time, to put in practice before Bahaullah's mission began at the end of the year 1852. Now, the Bab had also emphasized that the Laws of Bayan depends on the approval of Bahaullah (the next Manifestation).

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm lucky. My belief desires no urgent need to sell itself, no need to prove itself, already includes all but in a quiet undemonstrative way and does not prohibit free-search.
It just is.

Yes, me too. Lucky. I couldn't stand telling my beliefs to others. For dharmic faiths, the core teaching is to be self-reflective. An initial insight is to realise each person is unique, and that trying to sell your religion is annoying to others. Not that hard.

 

[oldbadger]

You know that, when the Bab manifested in the year 1844, He did not change any of the Laws of Islam during the first 4-5 years. The first time that the Bab started to change the Laws of Islam, and replace them with the new Laws of the Bab'i Faith, was when He revealed the Book of Bayan in the year 1848, while He was imprisoned in the Mountain of Maku.

1845 Bahauallah joins the Babi Faith
1849 Bahauallah marries Fatimih

1853 Bahauallah marries Gawhar in Baghdad

Both 2nd and 3rd marriages took place after 1848.
But Bahauallah did not have the insight and all encompassing knowledge?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What do you think impartial, detached observers will think of all this?

You know that, at the time of previous Manifestations, people of their Time, faced a greater obstacles in some cases to accept Them as a true Prophet of God.
For example, Moses was brought up in the family of the Pharaoh, and later He killed an Egyptian man, and because of this, He became known as a murderer. Then He fled from the soldiers who were after Him to the deserts.
As regards to Jesus, His mother gave birth to Him, while she was not married. Nobody could believe her pregnancy was through Holy Spirit. Thus, to the outsiders, He was just born illegitimately.
Now, if people had eventually could believe in a person who was know as murderer, and another known to be born illegitimately, why can they not believe in Bahaullah, who just married 3 times, even though many of the Prophets are known who had more wives?
Methinks, when they see the signs of divinity manifested from a Man, they cannot deny Them due to the other outwardly things that may cause doubt in the mind of people.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1845 Bahauallah joins the Babi Faith
1849 Bahauallah marries Fatimih

1853 Bahauallah marries Gawhar in Baghdad

Both 2nd and 3rd marriages took place after 1848.
But Bahauallah did not have the insight and all encompassing knowledge?

If marrying more than 1 wife is wrong, why previous Prophets did not say that? Why did many of the other Prophets before Bahaullah have many wives?

The answer that Baha'ullah gives to this question in principle is that: the Laws of God are revealed to suit the Age and Time of the people. The Laws of God are revealed to suit the 'Conditions' people live.

So, now, my question is, did the Bayan which was revealed in 1848, have any verse that says, not more than one or two wives are allowed? Please quote.

 

[oldbadger]

As regards to Jesus, His mother gave birth to Him, while she was not married. Nobody could believe her pregnancy was through Holy Spirit. Thus, to the outsiders, He was just born illegitimately.

The above is rubbish.
I don't think you know the line of events in a Jewish betrothal.
What you wrote is flat wrong.

Now, if people had eventually could believe in a person who was know as murderer, and another known to be born illegitimately, why can they not believe in Bahaullah, who just married 3 times, even though many of the Prophets are known who had more wives?
Methinks, when they see the signs of divinity manifested from a Man, they cannot deny Them due to the other outwardly things that may cause doubt in the mind of people.

I am not 'people' and I have never viewed Moses as a murderer, nor Jesus as illegitimate. It's not for me to advise you but I would never so insult either name. Further to that there is no evidence that Moses murdered when he killed........ you mess with words, Sir.

It's all about integrity of person, of word, and, of course, of religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Now, if people had eventually could believe in a person who was know as murderer, and another known to be born illegitimately, why can they not believe in Bahaullah, who just married 3 times, even though many of the Prophets are known who had more wives?
Methinks, when they see the signs of divinity manifested from a Man, they cannot deny Them due to the other outwardly things that may cause doubt in the mind of people.

In Abrahamic faiths, sure. In dharmic faiths, the sages are often celibate monks or wandering ascetics. Marriage would be considered a distraction to the real goal. Why are the Baha'is so desperate to get people to accept Baha'u'llah as a prophet/manifestation? Of what value to the human race is that?

Who would you rather have as a neighbour or a friend ... a criminal or selfish person who thinks Baha'u'llah is the real deal, or an honest, kind, giving person from any of the other belief systems on this planet?

 

[oldbadger]

If marrying more than 1 wife is wrong, why previous Prophets did not say that? Why did many of the other Prophets before Bahaullah have many wives?

The answer that Baha'ullah gives to this question in principle is that: the Laws of God are revealed to suit the Age and Time of the people. The Laws of God are revealed to suit the 'Conditions' people live.

So, now, my question is, did the Bayan which was revealed in 1848, have any verse that says, not more than one or two wives are allowed? Please quote.

Ah ha! Yet more interference.....
Back you go, scores of pages, to where I listed some of the Bab's laws, as shown on a Bahai site. The same site explained some variances in translations of various papers.......... it did not look good to me.

So don't ask me, any more, to produce translations from just Bahai.org because I no longer trust just them. For my own personal journey into Bahai I have found all that I need.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i writings are very positive about Christ, seeing Him as a Manifestation of God or one of the Great Beings in the OP. If you can find Baha'i writings that label Christ as a false prophets or His religion as false and fantasy, I'd be keen to hear.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 16-17

How many times have you talked about all the wrong beliefs Christians have? So with Jesus, Baha'is say all sorts of nice things about him, but they don't accept the Christian beliefs about him. So what do you call those beliefs? Like the resurrection? False? Fantasy? How about Satan? False? Fantasy? How about the Christian belief about creation? False? Fantasy?

 

[CG Didymus]

You mean the REM song? The chorus goes something like, its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine. Do you feel fine?

The point was... The world is still crumbling. The things in Revelation appear to still be happening. Therefore, Jesus hasn't returned yet.

 

[CG Didymus]

You wanted my picture?
I'm just so touched by....... oh, my Missus is looking over and said that you want to see Mrs Wainwrights.
Oh..... well ..... in that case...........
This was taken before she applied her make-up, you understand:-

What a babe.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In Abrahamic faiths, sure. In dharmic faiths, the sages are often celibate monks or wandering ascetics. Marriage would be considered a distraction to the real goal.

What does getting married have to do with being a Manifestation of God or not?

Why are the Baha'is so desperate to get people to accept Baha'u'llah as a prophet/manifestation? Of what value to the human race is that?

See what Baha'i Writings say:

"If the whole world should arise to deny this cause, we must not fight. Our only role is to spread the teachings. If it be accepted, all is well; if not, leave the people to God."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 41

Who would you rather have as a neighbour or a friend ... a criminal or selfish person who thinks Baha'u'llah is the real deal, or an honest, kind, giving person from any of the other belief systems on this planet?

Do you really think Bahaullah was not a real person? What about God Shiva? Do you think God Shiva is a real person?