How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

I personally don't care if he had 3 wives or not

Nor do I.

or whether he broke Baha'i law or not

That does matter to me, because we are all accountable to somebody, even a Manifestation of God.

Basically, with the doctrine of infallibility, in the eyes of Baha'i he could do no wrong anyway. He could make up laws as he went along

There is no doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i Faith. There is in the Catholic Church though.

Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

Interestingly it was one of the rulers that Baha'u'llah wrote to who came up with the idea, not too long after He received Baha'u'llah's letter.

I personally prefer avoiding using the word infallible in an interfaith discussion. It seems to polarise people and discussion inevitably causes more heat than light.

 

[siti]

There is no doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i Faith.

Seriously? So it is entirely conceivable that Baha'u'llah could have made a mistake in his writings?

 

[oldbadger]

You have claimed Baha'u'llah broke Babi law in regards to marriage. You are yet to quote any verses to specify what the Bab said about marriage in the Bayan let alone prove these laws had come into effect. To the contrary, I have demonstrated the laws in the Bayan were conditional on the endorsement of Him whom God shall make manifest (Baha'u'llah).

Gotcha!
And so, after debating (for many pages) your reasons why Bahauallah did not break Babi Law, (other members even needing to claim that a Manifestation of God did not need to keep any laws at all!), you demand to see the Bab's laws as written in the Bayan!

I was wondering which member would demand this.
I waited for it!

You See, it appears that the Bab expected that Babis would only have one wife....... and only two if the first would be infertile.

When the Bab declared self he wrote the Surats of the Bab over a period of about 40 days. It is in the Surats that he wrote the foundation of his movement and its demands, rules, guidances and laws. This link may open for you, but it only touches the surface of Babi writings.

http://hurqalya.ucmerced.edu/node/106/
Hurqalya Publications: Center for Shaykhī and Bābī-Bahā’ī Studies
The Sūrat al-mulk of the Qayyum al-asma', OF THE BĀB.

I have never bothered to research the Babis nor the Bayanis (oh yes) but then neither could you have. If you wish to then you have a long journey of research ahead, it seems. There are hundreds of Surahs written by the Bab. I noticed tthat some are very shocking. Surats 97 and 98 demand the killing of who will not convert, and not to accept money from any for theirlives, I understand.

As I perused through the scholar's posts, I noticed this, written by a translator:-

As far as I am aware the Bab enjoined monogamy unless one partner was infertile.

I repeat:- ............ the Bab enjoined monogamy unless one partner was infertile

Members on the above site claim that the UHJ has witheld many writings and translations. I've heard it many times before.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm not expecting either you or OB to gaze affectionately at the Baha'i Faith. You've made your intent clear.

Every time you get into difficulties in defending your faith, you get to making personal comments.
My intent was to find out more.
The fact that I have found out more can only show that my intent was...... exactly that.

I'm simply defending my faith from misrepresentation. ......................

A bad press is simply a bad press.
Bahai, on this thread, has had a bad press, and not fake news!

 

[oldbadger]

Yet if the text of either the story of Moses or Jesus were taken at face value, then Moses could have been seen as a murderer, as He was by the Egyptians,

How gullible......... and you choose to believe the Egyptians?

and Jesus could have been seen as illegitimate as He was by the Jews.

How gullible...... and you choose to believe 'the Jews'?
('The Jews'! You take too much notice of John's rubbish)

Investigate for yourself, is my advice, and don't grasp at other folks propaganda just because it suits to do so.

Yet you recently called Paul a psycho and remove most of the NT books to give Christ an utterly different character from that intended.

Paul's writings, the False letters, and much of the Christian edits in the gospels are total deceptions. And the Christian editing of Flavius JOsephus' short mention of Jesus shows just how deceiving those edits could be.

You seem to grasp at anything that might serve your purpose, yet you point fingers at others and accuse of 'intent' and 'agenda'.

The independent impartial and detached investigation of claims and writings might serve better.

 

[oldbadger]

I think Baha'u'llah was a real person who managed to convince a few people he was perfect in every way.

In Saivite Hinduism the terms Shiva and God are synonymous. So Shiva isn't a person. The anthropomorhised versions aren't part of my sect.

I learn........ I did not know that Shiva and God are synonymous.
OB's wonderful question for this morning. Could it be that because Hindus do not advertise their religion that we in the West know nothing about it, or is it that we're all just thick over here?
NO! DON'T ANSWER THAT!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Gotcha!
And so, after debating (for many pages) your reasons why Bahauallah did not break Babi Law, (other members even needing to claim that a Manifestation of God did not need to keep any laws at all!), you demand to see the Bab's laws as written in the Bayan!

I was wondering which member would demand this.
I waited for it!

You See, it appears that the Bab expected that Babis would only have one wife....... and only two if the first would be infertile.

When the Bab declared self he wrote the Surats of the Bab over a period of about 40 days. It is in the Surats that he wrote the foundation of his movement and its demands, rules, guidances and laws. This link may open for you, but it only touches the surface of Babi writings.

http://hurqalya.ucmerced.edu/node/106/
Hurqalya Publications: Center for Shaykhī and Bābī-Bahā’ī Studies
The Sūrat al-mulk of the Qayyum al-asma', OF THE BĀB.

I have never bothered to research the Babis nor the Bayanis (oh yes) but then neither could you have. If you wish to then you have a long journey of research ahead, it seems. There are hundreds of Surahs written by the Bab. I noticed tthat some are very shocking. Surats 97 and 98 demand the killing of who will not convert, and not to accept money from any for theirlives, I understand.

As I perused through the scholar's posts, I noticed this, written by a translator:-


I repeat:- ............ the Bab enjoined monogamy unless one partner was infertile

Members on the above site claim that the UHJ has witheld many writings and translations. I've heard it many times before.

LOL.You are the quintessential conspiracy theorist!

So you still haven't produced a single verse from the Baha'i writings to verify the laws the Bab revealed in regards to marriage let alone any references to their establishment. The reason you can't do it, is because the Bayan hasn't been translated into English yet. The reason it hasn't been translated into English is because the Baha'i writings need to be translated into over 800 languages and Baha'is rightly want to ensure quality control throughout the process. Obviously there are Persian translations available online that some individuals have translated and published without the permission of the Universal House of Justice. You have provided a link to one such translation, but it says absolutely nothing about marriage, nor does it have anything to do with the Bayan.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Every time you get into difficulties in defending your faith, you get to making personal comments.
My intent was to find out more.
The fact that I have found out more can only show that my intent was...... exactly that.


A bad press is simply a bad press.
Bahai, on this thread, has had a bad press, and not fake news!

I've been careful not to make it personal. What I said is just an observation from the 600+ posts that you have now posted on this thread. I'm not having any difficulty defending my faith, because the Baha'i faith will stand or fall on its own merits without any assistance from me. So go ahead and learn about the Baha'i faith by sites run by Covenant Breakers, ex-Baha'is, and disaffected Baha'is. Call the killing and persecution of Baha'is by Iran and other Islamic countries 'fake news'. View unauthorised translations as authentic, and authorised ones as deception by the Universal House of Justice. If that's what you fell you need to do, to investigate the Baha'i Faith in a fair and balanced manner, then I wish you well.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Seriously? So it is entirely conceivable that Baha'u'llah could have made a mistake in his writings?

Another Baha'i principle is 'Religious truth is not absolute but relative'

No Faith is Final - Religious Claims to Absolute Truth

 

[Dawnofhope]

Safe? Maybe in New Zealand. But we got mass murderers, terrorists, hurricanes, wild fires and Trump. I'm telling you... It's coming to an end.

Come over to the safely and paradise of New Zealand. We can jam together, eat vegetarian food, drink non-intoxicating herbal tea, and talk philosophy/religion as much or as little as you want.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If Christians believe them, and they aren't true? Then what are they?

Differences of opinion about religious truth between friends.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Come over to the safely and paradise of New Zealand. We can jam together, eat vegetarian food, drink non-intoxicating herbal tea, and talk philosophy/religion as much or as little as you want.

What a nice place

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

What character does Paul give Jesus? Do you agree with all of it?

13 out of the NT books are attributed to the apostle Paul. I have no issue with any of it. For example:

' for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus'
Galatians 3:26-28

 

[Dawnofhope]

What a nice place

Regards Tony

Almost as nice as Australia!



You should come over and show me how to play golf.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Almost as nice as Australia!



You should come over and show me how to play golf.

Love too, I liked teaching golf. its 40 deg where those roos are jumping We have a 40 deg week forecast, overnights of 27 , bring on the wet we say...ha ha.

 

[oldbadger]

LOL.You are the quintessential conspiracy theorist!

So you still haven't produced a single verse from the Baha'i writings to verify the laws the Bab revealed in regards to marriage....................

The Bahai writings?
No........ I won't be bothering with Bahai writings concerning the Babi Surats or the Bayani Bayan!
At this point in my discoveries I wouldn't place any reliability in such Bahai writings about these Babi laws. You've got that right.

One wife only, or two if the first is infertile ................. as soon as I saw it, written by a researcher, it clicked.

You cannot make something like that up. And Bahauallah's first wife was fruitful. I've seen all I need to see.

And the Bab's Surats make his religion into a serious insurrection and revolt against all people who would not convert. You see what Tahere was teaching the Babi converts! All commencing in that key year, 1844. What a Joke.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is no doctrine of infallibility in the Baha'i Faith.

Interestingly it was one of the rulers that Baha'u'llah wrote to who came up with the idea, not too long after He received Baha'u'llah's letter.

I personally prefer avoiding using the word infallible in an interfaith discussion. It seems to polarise people and discussion inevitably causes more heat than light.

So you're saying Baha'u'llah wasn't infallible?

As far as avoiding certain terms in an interfaith discussion, I would avoid lots too. But this isn't really an interfaith discussion, it's just a Baha'i discussion, with non-Baha'is participating. So I think the discussion of infallibility is totally appropriate. Are you saying, 'Let's discuss Baha'i, but all the controversial aspects are off the table?'

 

[Vinayaka]

I learn........ I did not know that Shiva and God are synonymous.
OB's wonderful question for this morning. Could it be that because Hindus do not advertise their religion that we in the West know nothing about it, or is it that we're all just thick over here?
NO! DON'T ANSWER THAT!

Yup. When I'm landscaping at temple, quite often westerners walking by will ask, 'What religion is this?'

 

[oldbadger]

I've been careful not to make it personal.

What a laugh!

 

[oldbadger]

Call the killing and persecution of Baha'is by Iran and other Islamic countries 'fake news'.

Disgraceful post.
Total distortion...............
In Post 15697 I wrote about a perceived Historical distortion, thus:-
After this last week of new information I will not listen to Bahai stories again about how nice the Babis were, and how nasty Persia was, alone.
It's fake news!

...and you have attached the term I used, 'Fake News' to a Current Situation about conditions today in Iran.