How are these Great Beings explained?

[oldbadger]

So you don't know then! I mean since it is not possible to count precisely from the "days of Adam" to 1844 you have no idea when the "sixth millennium" started or ended? This is quite possibly the most preposterous Baha'i explanation I have seen so far - sixth millennium indeed - what the heck happened to progressive revelation and the adoption of scientific knowledge?

I just don't get it!
This continuing insistence that a bunch of strange and oblique numerological prophecies would lead to 1844 and the Declaration of the Bab, which auto-links somehow to the beginning of Bahai......... is so unhelpful for Bahai.

If only they could have somehow added a few years to the claim so that Bahauallah's declaration date could be used as a nice clean start.

But they fell on the Babi religion. As soon as the Bab declared self he began to write his Surahs, a completely outrageous collection lof hatred, insurrection, revolt, apostasy and incitement to terrorism. No wonder the authorities executed him. They certainly would today. How could anybody excuse stuff such as this:-

Example:-
Surah 98.
Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

 

[CG Didymus]

So you don't know then! I mean since it is not possible to count precisely from the "days of Adam" to 1844 you have no idea when the "sixth millennium" started or ended? This is quite possibly the most preposterous Baha'i explanation I have seen so far - sixth millennium indeed - what the heck happened to progressive revelation and the adoption of scientific knowledge?

I've never heard of this prophecy from the Christians I know. In fact this is the first time I heard a Baha'i mention it.

 

[oldbadger]

What's sad is it seems like you're getting pushed further away from the Baha'i Faith... By the Baha'is.

Personal digs, insults and fibs cannot assist in an open and moderate debate. Yes....... some bahais have not shown themselves in a 'best light' here.

Of course, some have shown grace, clarity, exactness and much information...... the one I have in mind has been estranged from Bahai in some way. You couldn't make this kind of thing up!

A few thousand posts back I held a conversation with Sen about various arrests of bahais in Iran. I acknowledged the truth of every word that he wrote, a report about how an Ayatollah's daughter had been imprisoned herself for some offence and befriended Bahai prisoners. Because of that conversation I could show that all claims of Bahai arrests in Iran have not been challenged by me.

Mind you, I have held some extremely heated debates with atheists. The more intense the debate, the more liklihood of personal insult....?

 

[oldbadger]

When did I ever say today's world is a form of utopia? I don't even believe in utopia as a concept. You're free to think as you want to. But certainly evidence points against it.

True.
Today's World is a mess.
While science is fluffing its feathers and boasting its success, all I can see is many millions of jobs being replaced by robotics and micro-processors.
And the weaponry is millions of times more dreadful than ever before.
And we can vote some very strange folks into power.

But an asteroid gave us a near miss last week! Now if we could harness some of the above to sort out such risks in the future, and introduce a living wage for all, well, that would be different.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But they fell on the Babi religion. As soon as the Bab declared self he began to write his Surahs, a completely outrageous collection lof hatred, insurrection, revolt, apostasy and incitement to terrorism. No wonder the authorities executed him. They certainly would today. How could anybody excuse stuff such as this:-

Example:- Surah 98. Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

Read post 12 by Walrus at this link - Bab's Laws - Baha'i Forums


"..It’s a pretty ridiculous book!! (and that’s not meant as an insult but rather a compliment on just how impressively complex the composition of the whole text is).

The first thing to note is that, yes, it is more than a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. But it is still a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. Specifically every Surah of the Qayyum al-Asma' is a commentary on deeper meanings within the corresponding verse of the Surat al-Yusuf. So the first Surah is a commentary on the first verse, the second the second, the third the third, etc. But each chapter is also a commentary on other parts of the Quran, making it even more complex........"

".......So to interpret any verse of the Qayyum al-Asma', I’d think the process would need to go something like this:

Step 1: What verse from al-Yusuf is this referring to (the verse referred to is the same as the Surah number in the Qayyum al-Asma')
Step 2: What part of this verse is from the Quran??
Step 3: What is the full context of this verse??
Step 4: What is the full context of the parts of this verse that are from the Quran??
Step 5: What does the verse mean, given all of these things??"

You can not take a verse from the net, without knowing a thing about it and use it wrongly.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

You can not take a verse from the net, without knowing a thing about it and use it wrongly.

Regards Tony

Well then....... don't!

Surah 98 was not quoted or mentioned in that post by Walrus.
And, BTW, I was criticised by a Bahai for selecting Surah 98 from that very forum.

If you don't think that the Bab wrote Surah 98, then show your reasoning.

 

[CG Didymus]

I just don't get it!
This continuing insistence that a bunch of strange and oblique numerological prophecies would lead to 1844 and the Declaration of the Bab, which auto-links somehow to the beginning of Bahai......... is so unhelpful for Bahai.

If only they could have somehow added a few years to the claim so that Bahauallah's declaration date could be used as a nice clean start.

But they fell on the Babi religion. As soon as the Bab declared self he began to write his Surahs, a completely outrageous collection lof hatred, insurrection, revolt, apostasy and incitement to terrorism. No wonder the authorities executed him. They certainly would today. How could anybody excuse stuff such as this:-

Example:-
Surah 98.
Oh warriors of the Truth, when you stand in lines in a war against unbelievers, do not fear their great numbers, because We have written fear on their hearts. Kill each and every of them and do not let one of them remain on earth."

Ah, what is that? The Bab said that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well then....... don't!

Surah 98 was not quoted or mentioned in that post by Walrus.
And, BTW, I was criticised by a Bahai for selecting Surah 98 from that very forum.

If you don't think that the Bab wrote Surah 98, then show your reasoning.

I noticed you did not consider what was offered. That quote is in that post and I will not reply again.

“Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.”

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Read post 12 by Walrus at this link - Bab's Laws - Baha'i Forums


"..It’s a pretty ridiculous book!! (and that’s not meant as an insult but rather a compliment on just how impressively complex the composition of the whole text is).

The first thing to note is that, yes, it is more than a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. But it is still a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. Specifically every Surah of the Qayyum al-Asma' is a commentary on deeper meanings within the corresponding verse of the Surat al-Yusuf. So the first Surah is a commentary on the first verse, the second the second, the third the third, etc. But each chapter is also a commentary on other parts of the Quran, making it even more complex........"

".......So to interpret any verse of the Qayyum al-Asma', I’d think the process would need to go something like this:

Step 1: What verse from al-Yusuf is this referring to (the verse referred to is the same as the Surah number in the Qayyum al-Asma')
Step 2: What part of this verse is from the Quran??
Step 3: What is the full context of this verse??
Step 4: What is the full context of the parts of this verse that are from the Quran??
Step 5: What does the verse mean, given all of these things??"

You can not take a verse from the net, without knowing a thing about it and use it wrongly.

Regards Tony

Ah, what is that? The Bab said that?

 

[oldbadger]

The plan backfired. But lots of Baha'i plans backfired. Maybe this is just microcosm of the macrocosm. There were predictions of peace by 2000, huge increases in numbers, and many more. None have materialised. So now we're left with dwindling numbers, an ever increasing age demographic, and almost all of the resources being put into simply maintaining the buildings that exist. There is little energy left to do anything significant.

And that's sad, because some of the goals are quite legitimate towards a better harmony amongst the people of this planet. If only they could come to the conference table without the big blue sign that says, "I came to this meeting to bring the message of Baha'u'llah!" Everyone else is sick of that. I can have rather decent conversations with Baha'i on here about traveling, about weather, about scenery, about social woes. never ever mentioning even the name of my religion, but with the Baha'i, it always just has to come up. So rather than saying, 'What can we do together to help reduce unfair wealth distribution, and actually think about that, it always has to be ... "Let's see ... what did Baha'u''llah say?' So right away the agenda shifts from actually discussing the goals, to proselytising. I'm beginning to think that that IS the faith. The main activity of the religion is to convince others to join. Not about charity, not about inner striving, character development, helping others, and all those things.

Winner!
As I read your post I was wondering which groups and religions could sit at table with others to discuss solutions without punching their own agendas.

The very first group to 'click' was The Quakers, and then others flowed in to mind as well.

Decades ago when my Bahai Wife was alive I would take her to Bahai meetings. Where to? The Quakers Meeting House............. Quakers would lend their premises for other religions to use, free of charge.

 

[oldbadger]

I noticed you did not consider what was offered. That quote is in that post and I will not reply again.

“Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.”

Regards Tony

I did access that page and scrolled down to Walrus's post. And read it. Sadly I missed another post he wrote much further down.

Walrus confirmed the existence of Surah 98 although he did not actually give title to it. Heoffered opinion about how Surah 98 might somehow be diluted by surrounding text.

Can I invite you to provide the actual words of the Bab before and after Surah 98? That would indeed be a timely disclosure which might assist in my capacity to understand what you are trying to suggest?

 

[oldbadger]

Ah, what is that? The Bab said that?

He wrote it.
Another member is challenging that at this time.
I wait to see if any text before or after Surah 98 might dliute it at all.

But the Surah just before or just after 98 is as bad!

Oh....... before. I'm not so sure about this next one..... This is a 'part-Surah' it seems. Surah 97

Surah 97
Oh Believers! Take and occupy every city and its inhabitants for God's religion and do not accept from them a money in exchange ..."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I did access that page and scrolled down to Walrus's post. And read it. Sadly I missed another post he wrote much further down.

Walrus confirmed the existence of Surah 98 although he did not actually give title to it. Heoffered opinion about how Surah 98 might somehow be diluted by surrounding text.

Can I invite you to provide the actual words of the Bab before and after Surah 98? That would indeed be a timely disclosure which might assist in my capacity to understand what you are trying to suggest?

What is being said is that each Surah of the Bab is an Explanation on a corresponding Surah in the Koran and that it is even much more than that.

I would not even attempt to understand this work of the Bab, it is way beyond the Words of the Surah's.

The Bab's work were aimed at the belief that no one Could Match the Koran, as the Koran is seen as a miracle.

So not only did the Bab match in this work a corresponding verse in the Koran, he expanded upon the meanings and then gave the entire contex further meaning, I quote what Walrus said, as that is where I got those ideas from;

"...The first thing to note is that, yes, it is more than a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. But it is still a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. Specifically every Surah of the Qayyum al-Asma' is a commentary on deeper meanings within the corresponding verse of the Surat al-Yusuf. So the first Surah is a commentary on the first verse, the second the second, the third the third, etc. But each chapter is also a commentary on other parts of the Quran, making it even more complex........"

This was aimed at showing the Muslims that the Bab could match the Challenge given in the Koran.

Produce a Surah like it if you are a person of truth, this link explains this

Quran and miracles - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Bahai writings?
No........ I won't be bothering with Bahai writings concerning the Babi Surats or the Bayani Bayan!
At this point in my discoveries I wouldn't place any reliability in such Bahai writings about these Babi laws. You've got that right.

By Baha'i writings, Baha'is usually mean the writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha. You want to look at one or two verses of writings of the Bab out of context that supports your view that the Babi's were trouble makers? Whose cherry picking now?

One wife only, or two if the first is infertile ................. as soon as I saw it, written by a researcher, it clicked.

Thus far you are yet to quote from the writings of the Bab in regards marriage. You haven't even cited your reference 'written by a researcher'.

You cannot make something like that up. And Bahauallah's first wife was fruitful. I've seen all I need to see.

It seems you can make anything up you want if you ignore the context.

 

[oldbadger]

What is being said is that each Surah of the Bab is an Explanation on a corresponding Surah in the Koran and that it is even much more than that.

I would not even attempt to understand this work of the Bab, it is way beyond the Words of the Surah's.

The Bab's work were aimed at the belief that no one Could Match the Koran, as the Koran is seen as a miracle.

So not only did the Bab match in this work a corresponding verse in the Koran, he expanded upon the meanings and then gave the entire contex further meaning, I quote what Walrus said, as that is where I got those ideas from;

"...The first thing to note is that, yes, it is more than a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. But it is still a commentary on the Surat al-Yusuf. Specifically every Surah of the Qayyum al-Asma' is a commentary on deeper meanings within the corresponding verse of the Surat al-Yusuf. So the first Surah is a commentary on the first verse, the second the second, the third the third, etc. But each chapter is also a commentary on other parts of the Quran, making it even more complex........"

This was aimed at showing the Muslims that the Bab could match the Challenge given in the Koran.

Produce a Surah like it if you are a person of truth, this link explains this

Quran and miracles - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

I expect that you might need to cling to the Walrus' s writings about this subject.

Let's cut to the truth..
Did the Bab mean it when he wrote it, or not?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not written by Paul:
Epesians
Colosians
Thess 2
Titus
Timothy 1
Timothy 2

Written by Paul:
Cor 1
Cor 2
Philipians
Hebrews
Thess 1
Romans
Galatians
Philemon

In the Baha'i writings we have references linking Paul to Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, and Titus. I could not find any to Thessalonians, Hebrews, Philemon, Philippians, Ephesians, and Colossians, so I would leave those to the biblical scholars. The Baha'is do not need to remove a single book from the NT for it to reflect the True Christ and His Teachings.

Saint Peter's attitude to Paul is clear:
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2 Peter 3:15-18

 

[oldbadger]

By Baha'i writings, Baha'is usually mean the writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha. You want to look at one or two verses of writings of the Bab out of context that supports your view that the Babi's were trouble makers? Whose cherry picking now?

Reports of the fighting, the sieges, the murders (which I have yet to study) , the attempted assassination all lead to the conclusion that the Babi religion caused much trouble.
Yes..... or No?

Thus far you are yet to quote from the writings of the Bab in regards marriage. You haven't even cited your reference 'written by a researcher'.

The researcher clainmed to be a translator.
Most of the Bab's Surahs and Bayan are only available in Persian and Arabic. There are more available in French than in English, I have read.
And so I will be taking interest in this for a time, but needing to read the opinions of translators. bviously there won't be much point in quoting many of them to Bahais, because I get the impression that only Bahai approved translations would be acceptable to Bahais. But there are other researchers here as well............

It seems you can make anything up you want if you ignore the context.

Some of us here could say that about Bahai.

Point of interest. Do you notice how I have often kept my comments in the third person, such as 'another member' or 'bahai' etc etc? If you learn to do this it takes the personal attack out of what you write. Just a thought.

 

[oldbadger]

In the Baha'i writings we have references linking Paul to Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, and Titus. I could not find any to Thessalonians, Hebrews, Philemon, Philippians, Ephesians, and Colossians. Regards the Baha'is do not need to remove a single book from the NT for it to reflect the True Christ and His Teachings.

Saint Peter's attitude to Paul is clear:
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2 Peter 3:15-18

The True Christ:-
Romans {1:3} Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; {1:4} And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So you believe what Paul wrote? As above?
Yes or No?

 

[Dawnofhope]

So it is entirely conceivable that Baha'u'llah could have made a mistake in his writings?

Given the close association of each Manifestation has with God Himself, Their Revelation is from God.

Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If you go back to the OP, it seems pretty clear it was intended to be an explanation of the Baha'i belief system as regard to 'Great Beings'. The question was just a set up for later Baha'i explanation.

It certainly appears that way.

So I don't think it has morphed at all.

Fair enough.

Perhaps the only mistake was to put it outside of the Baha'i DIR, which just invites opposing views. And yes, that is what LH got. I welcome opposing views as than you can tell people aren't just blindly following some dogma.

You would have to ask LH about that, and how he feels.

Nine months later, here we all stand.

I have no problem with opposing views. However the spirit in which a discussion is held is just as important as the diverse beliefs we hold IMHO. For example the spirit of mutual respect and goodwill as opposed to animosity and indifference.