How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

OK - I'm thinking about it...er...um...ah! yes...maybe because his release was the result of diplomacy - which necessarily takes time - rather than divine intervention which presumably does not.

There is no such an evidence at all. There is no such a thing in the history that they made this request as soon as he went to prison, or it went through such a process. And you also did not think why the Russians even want to help Bahaullah!

 

[siti]

What you are referring as, was not written in the Tablet that Bahaullah sent to the king of Persia.
'If' william sears said that, it would be a mistake.

Shoghi Effendi did not say, this was a Prophecy written in the Tablet that Bahaullah sent to the king.


This is what Shoghi effendi wrote:

...when in the course of a single year, as attested by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, “more than four thousand souls were slain, and a great multitude of women and children left without protector and helper,” the murderous and horrible acts subsequently perpetrated by an insatiable and unyielding enemy covered as wide a range and were marked by an even greater degree of ferocity.
Náṣiri’d-Dín Sháh, stigmatized by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Prince of Oppressors,” as one who had “perpetrated what hath caused the denizens of the cities of justice and equity to lament,” was, during the period under review, in the full tide of his manhood and had reached the plenitude of his despotic power.

This was not the time that Bahaullah said soon He will be a lesson to the world.
Nasiridinshah was born in 1831 and was assassinated in 1896 at age about 65.
Bahaullah wrote His Tablet to Him about 1870 (more or less).
I cannot find where Bahaullah said soon He will be object lesson to the World, my guess is, this would be in the final years of Bahaullah's earthly life. But, first we cannot say how soon is not too late to think the prophecy failed, and secondly this prophecy is fulfilled in a sense that when the king was healthy and powerful and exactly when he was celebrating his 50th year or so, of kingdom, he was assassinated, thus he became such an object lesson for the world to see even when a man is in such a worldly glory, all the sudden he can loose it all!


Therefor none of this can be used to invalidate the authenticity of the words of Bahaullah witnessed by Mirza Habib. Moreover, it is not like in those days the Bahais or non-bahais were questioning a prophecy of Bahaullah. There is no such an evidence. Even if hypothetically lets assume there was, it would have made sense that mirza habib would make Up such a thing much earlier. Why waiting for 50 years to collect it?

So there is no evidence at all that Baha'u'llah made any specific prophecy about the downfall of the Shah - Yes or no?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So there is no evidence at all that Baha'u'llah made any specific prophecy about the downfall of the Shah - Yes or no?

If you want to make your point It is your job to find when and where Bahaullah made a specific Prophecy that Failed. If i want to answer you question as yes or no, i have to go and read the whole Tablets and find them. I did not say there is no specific. I gave you two examples. One was 'soon he will be the object of lesson for all', and the other, in the recorded words of Bahaullah telling abul Hasan shirazi: "you will see the death of the Shah" . To me these two are specific prophecies and fulfilled. If you know of any failed one, show me please.

 

[siti]

There is no such an evidence at all. There is no such a thing in the history that they made this request as soon as he went to prison, or it went through such a process. And you also did not think why the Russians even want to help Bahaullah!

"Bahá’u’lláh, when that attempt had been made on the life of the sovereign, was in Lavásán, the guest of the Grand Vizir, and was staying in the village of Afchih when the momentous news reached Him. Refusing to heed the advice of the Grand Vizir’s brother, Ja’far-Qulí Khán, who was acting as His host, to remain for a time concealed in that neighborhood, and dispensing with the good offices of the messenger specially dispatched to insure His safety, He rode forth, the following morning, with cool intrepidity, to the headquarters of the Imperial army which was then stationed in Níyávarán, in the Shimírán district. In the village of Zarkandih He was met by, and conducted to the home of, His brother-in-law, Mírzá Majíd, who, at that time, was acting as secretary to the Russian Minister, Prince Dolgorouki, and whose house adjoined that of his superior. Apprised of Bahá’u’lláh’s arrival the attendants of the Hajíbu’d-Dawlih, Hájí ‘Alí Khán, straightway informed their master, who in turn brought the matter to the attention of his sovereign. The Sháh, greatly amazed, dispatched his trusted officers to the Legation, demanding that the Accused be forthwith delivered into his hands. Refusing to comply with the wishes of the royal envoys, the Russian Minister requested Bahá’u’lláh to proceed to the home of the Grand Vizir, to whom he formally communicated his wish that the safety of the Trust the Russian government was delivering into his keeping should be insured. This purpose, however, was not achieved because of the Grand Vizir’s apprehension that he might forfeit his position if he extended to the Accused the protection demanded for Him."

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By (p.71)

"The persistent and decisive intervention of the Russian Minister, Prince Dolgorouki, who left no stone unturned to establish the innocence of Bahá’u’lláh; the public confession of Mullá Shaykh ‘Alíy-i-Turshízí, surnamed ‘Azím, who, in the Síyáh-Chál, in the presence of the Hajíbu’d-Dawlih and the Russian Minister’s interpreter and of the government’s representative, emphatically exonerated Him, and acknowledged his own complicity; the indisputable testimony established by competent tribunals; the unrelaxing efforts exerted by His own brothers, sisters and kindred,—all these combined to effect His ultimate deliverance from the hands of His rapacious enemies."

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By (p.104)

The Russian Minister, as soon as he was informed of the Imperial decision, expressed the desire to take Bahá’u’lláh under the protection of his government, and offered to extend every facility for His removal to Russia. This invitation, so spontaneously extended, Bahá’u’lláh declined, preferring, in pursuance of an unerring instinct, to establish His abode in Turkish territory, in the city of Baghdád. “Whilst I lay chained and fettered in the prison,” He Himself, years after, testified in His Epistle addressed to the Czar of Russia, Nicolaevitch Alexander II, “one of thy ministers extended Me his aid. Whereupon God hath ordained for thee a station which the knowledge of none can comprehend except His knowledge. Beware lest thou barter away this sublime station.” “In the days,” is yet another illuminating testimony revealed by His pen, “when this Wronged One was sore-afflicted in prison, the minister of the highly esteemed government (of Russia)—may God, glorified and exalted be He, assist him!—exerted his utmost endeavor to compass My deliverance. Several times permission for My release was granted. Some of the ‘ulamás of the city, however, would prevent it. Finally, My freedom was gained through the solicitude and the endeavor of His Excellency the Minister. …His Imperial Majesty, the Most Great Emperor—may God, exalted and glorified be He, assist him!—extended to Me for the sake of God his protection—a protection which has excited the envy and enmity of the foolish ones of the earth.”

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By (p.106)

In the meantime, Baha'u'llah's brothers and sisters were making every effort to bring about His release, but Nasiri'd-Din Shah was adamant. He had decided that Baha'u'llah should be kept in prison to the end of His days.

Mirza Aqa Khan-i-Nuri, the Sadr-i-A'zam who had replaced Mirza Taqi Khan, owed much to Baha'u'llah. At a time when he had fallen into disgrace during the premiership of Haji Mirza Aqasi, and was bastinadoed and fined, Baha'u'llah paid a good deal of the fine for him. And later, when Mirza Aqa Khan found himself in dire financial straits during his exile in Kashan, Baha'u'llah again came to his rescue, and through Mirza Shafi', the Sahib-Divan, got him an annuity of - nineteen hundred tumans. Still later, Baha'u'llah helped Kazim Khan and his wife - he was the son of Mirza Aqa Khan - to join his father in Kashan. Now, in 1852, the relatives of Baha'u'llah sent handsome and valuable presents and even a large sum of money to Mirza Aqa Khan.

Urged by Mirza Majid-i-Ahi, the secretary of the Russian Legation - as previously noted, he was married to a sister of Baha'u'llah - Prince Dolgorouki, the Russian Minister, also pressed the Government to come soon to a decision and release Baha'u'llah.

H.M. Balyuzi, Baha'u'llah, King of Glory (p. 99)

Note that Mirza Aqa Khan Nuri was a relative of Baha'u'llah and at that time Prime Minister of Persia. Baha'u'llah was a guest in the Prime Minister's house! In fact, I believe both the Russian Ambassador and the Prime Minister tried to get the Shah's people to produce evidence against Baha'u'llah or release him. Unfortunately, family ties didn't help as much as anticipated - the PM was accused of collusion with his Nur relatives and countrymen - and of being an accomplice of Baha'u'llah in particular - and therefore party to the plot to assassinate the Shah. His help was not as forthcoming as one might have expected, not just because he feared opposing the Shah but because he feared being slaughtered along with the Babi's. He had also previously advised (unsuccessfully) against the execution of the Bab - so the finger of suspicion was already turning to him. To safeguard his position, he sacrificed his relatives and Babis generally and that seems to have placated his accusers to some extent while Baha'u'llah languished in prison for 4 months - but Baha'u'llah had another trick up his sleeve because an even closer relative - his brother-in-law - was the trusted secretary of the Russian Ambassador - and he wasn't about to let his boss forget Baha'u'llah's plight.

Refs:

Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 104-126

Holy-Writings.com - Read text

EʿTEMĀD-AL-DAWLA, ĀQĀ KHAN NŪRĪ – Encyclopaedia Iranica

http://www.bahai-library.com/pdf/m/masumian_debunking.pdf (p.33-34)

 

[siti]

One was 'soon he will be the object of lesson for all', and the other, in the recorded words of Bahaullah telling abul Hasan shirazi: "you will see the death of the Shah" .

The first of which you just admitted you cannot find in Baha'u'llah's writings and the second of which is the supposed recollection of a 16 year old boy which he failed to mention for over 50 years! No its not my job to show how these have failed - they don't exist as prophecies they were both written decades AFTER the death of the Shah - you do understand that prophecy has to be written before the event otherwise it is not prophecy?

In any case, if the Shah's death made him an "object lesson" then how much more so did the deaths of dozens of rulers of Persia who went before him, died younger, enjoyed much shorter reigns and died even more ignominious deaths? Frankly the more one looks into this the more patently absurd your argument is - in fact its not even an argument because you have still failed to quote an actual prophecy in the words of Baha'u'llah in regard to this. I don't have to prove that the prophecy failed because there was no prophecy except what was made up by Baha'is long after the event. If Baha'u'llah really said it then provide the quote and/or reference - otherwise just admit that the death of the Shah was not prophesied by Baha'u'llah at all and any Baha'i attempt to claim that it was is a pack of lies.

 

[CG Didymus]

Honestly IT I get all that - I understand it...but here's the problem...

The 6000 years thing is a common belief in Abrahamic circles...

...and the 1000 years is as 1 day to God thing...

...and the seventh day Sabbath (Jubliee/Millennium/thousand year rule of "Christ"...etc.) thing...

and none of this was new in Daniel's day, or in Muhammad's day...

So it is no really great surprise that someone like Daniel (or more likely the "priest" or "scribe" or whoever who used Daniel as a pen name) might have counted back in the genealogical tables and thought to himself - OK - its been about 3700 years now according to the records so there must be about 2300 years left...and then about a thousand years later Muhammad (or someone) comes along and says well its been another thousand years now so there must only be about 1300 (actually 1260) years left now. And then someone gets it down to the exact year 1844 CE - and guess what happens - a man who has deliberately set off to find the "Promised One" whose appearance marks the end of the 6000 years based on these calculations does indeed find someone who seems to fit the bill and sits down and persuades him that he is "the One"...but here's the problem...

Nothing really happened in 4157 BCE - Siti never had a son in the first place in your illustration and the letters you received were not from Siti at all but from others working on the false assumption that Siti did have a son on the exact day that was indicated, and who sincerely wanted the vision to come true - and they even went so far as to find a German-speaking friend, dress him up in the right clothes and have him "appear" on the street at the right time...

...and here's the problem...if what I am suggesting was what really happened...how could you possibly know it? Of course I could be wrong - it would be equally difficult to know for sure that the various calculations and letters etc. were not true. But common sense tells me to err on the side of skepticism - otherwise I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along unless I have incontrovertible proof that he is lying.

Where is he getting the 6 days that he turns into 6000 years? It's not the 6 days of creation is it?

 

[oldbadger]

Then when the Bab came, He declared the old world ended, and a new human era begins.

And all he did was write some very strange laws, and caused his followers to enter into disruption, contention, confrontation and conflict.

We can judge them by their fruits.

 

[siti]

Where is he getting the 6 days that he turns into 6000 years? It's not the 6 days of creation is it?

No - according to the Jewish Talmud, the world - as it is now - lasts for 6000 years and at (or towards) the end of that 6000 years the Messiah appears and ushers in the "cosmic" sabbath. The thousand year day thing comes from Psalms 90:4 - a thousand years equals one "God-day" and hence 7000 years equals one God-week - the seventh-day being the sabbath and that translates to the "Lord's day" millennium of the rule of Christ-returned in the Christian Revelation. Shi'i Islam inherited the 6000 year thing from Judaism and aligned with their expectations of the appearance of the Twelfth Imam which (I think) was scheduled to be 1000 lunar years (yeah I know - I can't figure that out either - 871 AD to 1844 AD in our calendar somehow equates to AH 260 to AH 1260) after the eleventh Iman disappeared in AH 260 in the Muslim Calendar which equates to AH 1260 or in our calendar 1844 (or something like that). Christians then interpreted Jewish tradition (Daniel's 2300 years) as pointing to the year 1844, based on the supposed date of the Jews being restored to their land (and temple) after the Babylonian exile - which just happened to be about 2300 years before 1884 (as far as they knew - but others doing the same calculation have come to very different conclusions) and Baha'is now assume that this is the very year because that was (apparently) when the Bab "appeared" at Mulla Husayn's prompting - Mulla Husayn was fully expecting to find the Twelfth Imam or Mahdi because he had been told to do precisely that by the Shayki leader Siyyid Kazim - and also they point out that the Book of Revelation talks about 1260 days (aka years) in relation to the "two witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) and then make these point to AH 1260 which is, yes, you guessed it, 1844 in our calendar.

But apart from the Revelation thing, which is kind of a weird coincidence (I mean its nothing to do with the Muslim calendar whatsoever but it just happens to spit out the same number) the rest is all based on the same false assumption - that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Baha'is actually don't believe that but their calculations are all based on traditions of people that did believe it. That's why I was asking IT to explain what happened exactly 6000 years before 1844 - but he just keeps on dodging the question - as usual.

 

[oldbadger]

Even based on time lines in the Bible, many scholars agree that currently more than 6000 years has passed from the time of Adam. Even I found one from a Christian Site, saying Adam created in 4157 or 4156 BC!

Are you suggesting that Man did not exist before 4157 BCE?
Who are the Scholars that agree this? Scholars?
I thought that Bahais support the Sciences?

And I notice that your whole timeline emphasis is on 6000 year cycles, which of course makes Bahai more important than ALL the other prophets?

 

[oldbadger]

OK - I'm thinking about it...er...um...ah! yes...maybe because his release was the result of diplomacy - which necessarily takes time - rather than divine intervention which presumably does not.

And governments do not exhibit diplomacy without reasons, and in the case of Bahauallah's protections and support I feel that the various officials who looked out for him did NOT receive visits from Holy Ghosts, or Spirits, or messages from the Bahai God.

 

[siti]

And governments do not exhibit diplomacy without reasons, and in the case of Bahauallah's protections and support I feel that the various officials who looked out for him did NOT receive visits from Holy Ghosts, or Spirits, or messages from the Bahai God.

Indeed not. I have given more details in a later post but it boils down to:

The Prime Minister of Persia was a relative of Baha'u'llah and was indebted to his family - he was also keen to avoid suspicion himself - being related to prominent Babi's was not helpful to his position - I guess he was at first keen to get Baha'u'llah off the hook and used his position to work in concert with the Russian Ambassador - when that failed he turned on his own kinsmen to protect his own position and even after Baha'u'llah was released censured him for not having denounced the Babi faith.

Baha'u'llah's Brother in Law was the secretary of the Russian Ambassador and lived next door to the Ambassador

Baha'u'llah's family were of noble stock and still wielded significant influence with government officials if not directly with the Shah.

I think it was mostly just a case of "who you know" and "blood is thicker than water".

 

[oldbadger]

Indeed not. I have given more details in a later post but it boils down to:

The Prime Minister of Persia was a relative of Baha'u'llah and was indebted to his family - he was also keen to avoid suspicion himself - being related to prominent Babi's was not helpful to his position - I guess he was at first keen to get Baha'u'llah off the hook and used his position to work in concert with the Russian Ambassador - when that failed he turned on his own kinsmen to protect his own position and even after Baha'u'llah was released censured him for not having denounced the Babi faith.

Baha'u'llah's Brother in Law was the secretary of the Russian Ambassador and lived next door to the Ambassador

Baha'u'llah's family were of noble stock and still wielded significant influence with government officials if not directly with the Shah.

I think it was mostly just a case of "who you know" and "blood is thicker than water".

Thankyou very much for that Info.
And this 'interest and influence' extends all the way to the end of the 1st World War.

I have read that Abdul Baha's British friend (in Palestine), an army officer, was a British Intelligence Officer, but I don't yet know whether he was with Military Intelligence or Diplomatic (Government) Intelligence..

 

[loverofhumanity]

Everyone please have a happy holiday season if it is your time of celebration and a Very Merry Christmas if you celebrate Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Everyone please have a happy holiday season if it is your time of celebration and a Very Merry Christmas if you celebrate Christmas and a Happy Hanukkah as well.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No - according to the Jewish Talmud, the world - as it is now - lasts for 6000 years and at (or towards) the end of that 6000 years the Messiah appears and ushers in the "cosmic" sabbath. The thousand year day thing comes from Psalms 90:4 - a thousand years equals one "God-day" and hence 7000 years equals one God-week - the seventh-day being the sabbath and that translates to the "Lord's day" millennium of the rule of Christ-returned in the Christian Revelation. Shi'i Islam inherited the 6000 year thing from Judaism and aligned with their expectations of the appearance of the Twelfth Imam which (I think) was scheduled to be 1000 lunar years (yeah I know - I can't figure that out either - 871 AD to 1844 AD in our calendar somehow equates to AH 260 to AH 1260) after the eleventh Iman disappeared in AH 260 in the Muslim Calendar which equates to AH 1260 or in our calendar 1844 (or something like that). Christians then interpreted Jewish tradition (Daniel's 2300 years) as pointing to the year 1844, based on the supposed date of the Jews being restored to their land (and temple) after the Babylonian exile - which just happened to be about 2300 years before 1884 (as far as they knew - but others doing the same calculation have come to very different conclusions) and Baha'is now assume that this is the very year because that was (apparently) when the Bab "appeared" at Mulla Husayn's prompting - Mulla Husayn was fully expecting to find the Twelfth Imam or Mahdi because he had been told to do precisely that by the Shayki leader Siyyid Kazim - and also they point out that the Book of Revelation talks about 1260 days (aka years) in relation to the "two witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) and then make these point to AH 1260 which is, yes, you guessed it, 1844 in our calendar.

But apart from the Revelation thing, which is kind of a weird coincidence (I mean its nothing to do with the Muslim calendar whatsoever but it just happens to spit out the same number) the rest is all based on the same false assumption - that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Baha'is actually don't believe that but their calculations are all based on traditions of people that did believe it. That's why I was asking IT to explain what happened exactly 6000 years before 1844 - but he just keeps on dodging the question - as usual.

You understood everything fairly well. I only need to give you one additional info regarding this.
In Bahai view, the 6 days of Genesis, or creation in six days is actually where the 6000 years period comes. In our view 6 days creation is figurative and it really represents the spiritual creation. Day of one is, the day of Manifestation of Adam, represented as spirit of God coming to earth...
The traditions that you saw from jewish traditions indeed got their idea from 6 days of genesis. Do some investigation, and you will find out. Search for six days creation in wiki you will see that they did not believe literally the genesis represented literally the creation of the physical world. This can also be seen in Islam. Also, see Augustine interpretation of the six days of genesis. He also knew they are prophetic. He finally realized it is not literal creation in six days.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Honestly IT I get all that - I understand it...but here's the problem...

The 6000 years thing is a common belief in Abrahamic circles...

...and the 1000 years is as 1 day to God thing...

...and the seventh day Sabbath (Jubliee/Millennium/thousand year rule of "Christ"...etc.) thing...

and none of this was new in Daniel's day, or in Muhammad's day...

So it is no really great surprise that someone like Daniel (or more likely the "priest" or "scribe" or whoever who used Daniel as a pen name) might have counted back in the genealogical tables and thought to himself - OK - its been about 3700 years now according to the records so there must be about 2300 years left...and then about a thousand years later Muhammad (or someone) comes along and says well its been another thousand years now so there must only be about 1300 (actually 1260) years left now. And then someone gets it down to the exact year 1844 CE - and guess what happens - a man who has deliberately set off to find the "Promised One" whose appearance marks the end of the 6000 years based on these calculations does indeed find someone who seems to fit the bill and sits down and persuades him that he is "the One"...but here's the problem...
.

It is very unlikely that someone calculated based Biblical chronologies, and came up exactly with 2300 years, counting from the rebuilt of Jerusalem. The Bible does not give such an easy and exact Chronology, and If you look at the opinions of Scholar, they get the time of Adam a little different from each other, usually their disagreements is about a couple of hundred years.
In the Quran also, it is said 1000 years after revelation of Islam, and then the 5th and/or sixth Imams of Shia, have given hint, it should be counted from the time of disappearance of last Imam. If you think about it, at the time of Revelation of Quran and when sixth Imam was alive, it was unknown that the last Imam would pass away in the year 260AH!

Moreover, you are not even taking into equation many other signs. For example, the Authors of Bible had said, when the End Time comes, the Jews return back to Israel. They had said for 1260 days (years), the Jerusalem will be under the feet of Gentiles. I had shown in some of my other threads, these Prophecies came to pass exactly in the same year (1844). It was also said in both Islamic and Biblical prophecies, after the time of End, all things becomes new. It will be start of a new World. Now, almost all agree that sometime in the 19th century (more or less) a new human era has begun, in the sense that the world is completely changed. A Sudden change! Of course there has always been changes in terms of science or ways of People, but not such a fast change, that all the sudden we see from the 19th century!

.

Nothing really happened in 4157 BCE - Siti never had a son in the first place in your illustration and the letters you received were not from Siti at all but from others working on the false assumption that Siti did have a son on the exact day that was indicated, and who sincerely wanted the vision to come true - and they even went so far as to find a German-speaking friend, dress him up in the right clothes and have him "appear" on the street at the right time....

Obviously I used Siti's name just so, it may give you a better feeling about the story. But this Siti I was talking about did have a son, and there was no need for him to lie about having a son, when he did not.


.

...and here's the problem...if what I am suggesting was what really happened...how could you possibly know it? Of course I could be wrong - it would be equally difficult to know for sure that the various calculations and letters etc. were not true. But common sense tells me to err on the side of skepticism - otherwise I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along unless I have incontrovertible proof that he is lying.

For me, this problem of yours is not there. Because you are saying otherwise I have to believe every "messiah". I think this is what you are missing: There are many signs given in the previous religions, such as Islam and Christianity with regards to the Promised, so, they may be known. For example in Islamic Traditions it is stated that, the first promised One, whose lineage is from prophet, and his name is alluded to be Ali Muhammad, is the Mahdi who announces from Mecca, then He dies after 7 years. then after Him another Promised One comes, who initially is the follower of the First Promised One, but after His death, this second Promised One is the Spiritual return of Christ, and lives for 40 years. It is written, He will come to Iraq, stays there for 10 years, later comes to the Holy land, and specifically city of Akka,...etc..etc.
Now, you said "otherwise I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along"
The problem with your statement is, firstly the Bab and Bahaullah match the description of every single Prophecy! not just cherry picking. So, here is the challenge:
1. If you think it is easy that any Messiah matches with the Prophecies, just find one out of so many Messiahs and show he matches with 5 prophecies of Islam, or Bible! I am not even asking you find someone who matches all. I let you do you cherry picking!
2. You cannot even find a single prophecy regarding the Promised Ones, that failed to come to pass. and if you become familiar, you would know, their numbers are thousands! So, the challenge is this: find a single Prophecy either from Islam or Bible, and prove it was supposed to be fulfilled in the Promised Ones, abut did not! I let you do cherry picking. Just pick One!
But If you can neither take the first challenge, nor the second, then would you not agree that, it is not " I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along"!

So, that was really the reason I gave the example of the german speaking with 100 signs. It is possible that someone comes having one sign. But the possibility that all signs comes in one person coincidentally is virtually zero or almost impossible, likewise, it is possible that someone from bible chronology calculated that 3700 years passed, 2300 years left. But then you have to say, the Jews starting to return in 1844 is coincidentally happened in the same year, the new era also coincidentally happened around the same time, the person of the Bab luckily had the same name as alluded to, and He coincidentally was killed in the 7th year matching with prophecies, and Bahaullah luckily happened to come to Akka, compatible with prophecies of Islam and Bible, and so on! Now considering that both Bahaullah and the Bab had shown many signs, such as being able to write Books in Arabic very fast and in a style that impressed the scholars. Many testified they could read the mind of them. To say all of it is coincidental and lie, is similar as denying the example i gave regarding the german speaking.

 

[CG Didymus]

No - according to the Jewish Talmud, the world - as it is now - lasts for 6000 years and at (or towards) the end of that 6000 years the Messiah appears and ushers in the "cosmic" sabbath. The thousand year day thing comes from Psalms 90:4 - a thousand years equals one "God-day" and hence 7000 years equals one God-week - the seventh-day being the sabbath and that translates to the "Lord's day" millennium of the rule of Christ-returned in the Christian Revelation. Shi'i Islam inherited the 6000 year thing from Judaism and aligned with their expectations of the appearance of the Twelfth Imam which (I think) was scheduled to be 1000 lunar years (yeah I know - I can't figure that out either - 871 AD to 1844 AD in our calendar somehow equates to AH 260 to AH 1260) after the eleventh Iman disappeared in AH 260 in the Muslim Calendar which equates to AH 1260 or in our calendar 1844 (or something like that). Christians then interpreted Jewish tradition (Daniel's 2300 years) as pointing to the year 1844, based on the supposed date of the Jews being restored to their land (and temple) after the Babylonian exile - which just happened to be about 2300 years before 1884 (as far as they knew - but others doing the same calculation have come to very different conclusions) and Baha'is now assume that this is the very year because that was (apparently) when the Bab "appeared" at Mulla Husayn's prompting - Mulla Husayn was fully expecting to find the Twelfth Imam or Mahdi because he had been told to do precisely that by the Shayki leader Siyyid Kazim - and also they point out that the Book of Revelation talks about 1260 days (aka years) in relation to the "two witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) and then make these point to AH 1260 which is, yes, you guessed it, 1844 in our calendar.

But apart from the Revelation thing, which is kind of a weird coincidence (I mean its nothing to do with the Muslim calendar whatsoever but it just happens to spit out the same number) the rest is all based on the same false assumption - that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Baha'is actually don't believe that but their calculations are all based on traditions of people that did believe it. That's why I was asking IT to explain what happened exactly 6000 years before 1844 - but he just keeps on dodging the question - as usual.

I doubt that they take the Talmud as Scripture... Unless of course they find something like this. But one problem, I thought Jesus was supposedly the Messiah? Also it sure helps to be able to use either solar or lunar years.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is very unlikely that someone calculated based Biblical chronologies, and came up exactly with 2300 years, counting from the rebuilt of Jerusalem. The Bible does not give such an easy and exact Chronology, and If you look at the opinions of Scholar, they get the time of Adam a little different from each other, usually their disagreements is about a couple of hundred years.
In the Quran also, it is said 1000 years after revelation of Islam, and then the 5th and/or sixth Imams of Shia, have given hint, it should be counted from the time of disappearance of last Imam. If you think about it, at the time of Revelation of Quran and when sixth Imam was alive, it was unknown that the last Imam would pass away in the year 260AH!

Moreover, you are not even taking into equation many other signs. For example, the Authors of Bible had said, when the End Time comes, the Jews return back to Israel. They had said for 1260 days (years), the Jerusalem will be under the feet of Gentiles. I had shown in some of my other threads, these Prophecies came to pass exactly in the same year (1844). It was also said in both Islamic and Biblical prophecies, after the time of End, all things becomes new. It will be start of a new World. Now, almost all agree that sometime in the 19th century (more or less) a new human era has begun, in the sense that the world is completely changed. A Sudden change! Of course there has always been changes in terms of science or ways of People, but not such a fast change, that all the sudden we see from the 19th century!

.
Obviously I used Siti's name just so, it may give you a better feeling about the story. But this Siti I was talking about did have a son, and there was no need for him to lie about having a son, when he did not.


.
For me, this problem of yours is not there. Because you are saying otherwise I have to believe every "messiah". I think this is what you are missing: There are many signs given in the previous religions, such as Islam and Christianity with regards to the Promised, so, they may be known. For example in Islamic Traditions it is stated that, the first promised One, whose lineage is from prophet, and his name is alluded to be Ali Muhammad, is the Mahdi who announces from Mecca, then He dies after 7 years. then after Him another Promised One comes, who initially is the follower of the First Promised One, but after His death, this second Promised One is the Spiritual return of Christ, and lives for 40 years. It is written, He will come to Iraq, stays there for 10 years, later comes to the Holy land, and specifically city of Akka,...etc..etc.
Now, you said "otherwise I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along"
The problem with your statement is, firstly the Bab and Bahaullah match the description of every single Prophecy! not just cherry picking. So, here is the challenge:
1. If you think it is easy that any Messiah matches with the Prophecies, just find one out of so many Messiahs and show he matches with 5 prophecies of Islam, or Bible! I am not even asking you find someone who matches all. I let you do you cherry picking!
2. You cannot even find a single prophecy regarding the Promised Ones, that failed to come to pass. and if you become familiar, you would know, their numbers are thousands! So, the challenge is this: find a single Prophecy either from Islam or Bible, and prove it was supposed to be fulfilled in the Promised Ones, abut did not! I let you do cherry picking. Just pick One!
But If you can neither take the first challenge, nor the second, then would you not agree that, it is not " I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along"!

So, that was really the reason I gave the example of the german speaking with 100 signs. It is possible that someone comes having one sign. But the possibility that all signs comes in one person coincidentally is virtually zero or almost impossible, likewise, it is possible that someone from bible chronology calculated that 3700 years passed, 2300 years left. But then you have to say, the Jews starting to return in 1844 is coincidentally happened in the same year, the new era also coincidentally happened around the same time, the person of the Bab luckily had the same name as alluded to, and He coincidentally was killed in the 7th year matching with prophecies, and Bahaullah luckily happened to come to Akka, compatible with prophecies of Islam and Bible, and so on! Now considering that both Bahaullah and the Bab had shown many signs, such as being able to write Books in Arabic very fast and in a style that impressed the scholars. Many testified they could read the mind of them. To say all of it is coincidental and lie, is similar as denying the example i gave regarding the german speaking.

How many different traditions does Christianity and Islam have? 'Cause the Christian traditions I was told have nothing to do with anything thing you've said. So somebody's got some wrong ideas. I get the feeling Christians think it's the Baha'is that are following wrong traditions.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm just glad I'm not an Abrahamic, and have little interest in it. I've discovered that besides a prophet and a book, history, and debating history is also a favorite theme.

Hinduism has a vast array of books that only a few people study diligently, no prophets, and a far greater focus on the present than the past. Very different paradigms.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How many different traditions does Christianity and Islam have? 'Cause the Christian traditions I was told have nothing to do with anything thing you've said. So somebody's got some wrong ideas. I get the feeling Christians think it's the Baha'is that are following wrong traditions.

I did not count to know exactly. It does not matter who says what. Everyone should independently investigate the truth, and decide for himself/herself.