How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

Yes close friends if you don't talk about religion.

I have been working six years at the Christian Medical Centre and even started up a bible study group with one of the Christian fundies and a Catholic. It lasted about 6 months. Admittedly it became a little tense when I could no longer avoid the question, "where in the bible is Baha'u'llah?" but we got through that. I think people just need to chill out about religion and be more at ease with the diversity of belief we all have.

 

[oldbadger]

Well perhaps - and perhaps such connections would also explain (as I pointed out in the first place) why Baha'u'llah seemed relativley well-informed about the recent history of France and Russia - and his knowledge of the British position on slavery ............................

It may also be extremely significant in any explanation of how Bahauallah survived the mid 40s (and further) whilst his acquaintances, all well-to-do and well-acquainted, were being taken out to their deaths.

 

[oldbadger]

Wasn't Noah floating in the middle of the ocean about that time?

He hadn't even got his Yacthmaster's ticket by then!

 

[oldbadger]

Which room has the view of the mountains?

That ain't no good!
You wanna see a proper gorgeous view, like from my front door. See? We've even got yachtin'...!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well perhaps - and perhaps such connections would also explain (as I pointed out in the first place) why Baha'u'llah seemed relativley well-informed about the recent history of France and Russia - and his knowledge of the British position on slavery - given that the Brits had recently tried to persuade the Shah to abolish slavery - and his relative ignorance of other politically important empires such as China and Japan which were definitely immensely important in the unfolding of 19th/20th century history (which is what Tony claims the prophecies were all about). As to their "prophetic significance" - if you interpret the vague suggestion that such a King might die at some point as prophetically significant then yes - otherwise he says nothing that a reasonably intelligent, reasonably informed (perhaps through connections to diplomats) political commentator might have predicted. Shahs, Czars and, in particular, French rulers were quite routinely deposed, dethroned, assassinated or otherwise got rid of through the course of the 18th and 19th centuries. It was no biggie to predict that a Shah or Czar would soon be seen off or that confusion would reign in France. On these topics please see my earlier posts.

Actually the Surih of the Temple is considered by Baha'is to be one of Baha'u'llahs more challenging works and relates fulfilment of prophecies in Zechariah regarding the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple.

Súriy-i-Haykal (Súrih of the Temple), by Ghasem Bayat

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Actually the Surih of the Temple is considered by Baha'is to be one of Baha'u'llahs more challenging works and relates fulfilment of prophecies in Zechariah regarding the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple.

Súriy-i-Haykal (Súrih of the Temple), by Ghasem Bayat

Many await the building of a 3rd temple and Bahau'llah has said in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts";

"..The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!......

.......Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words "Be and it is......"

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Many await the building of a 3rd temple and Bahau'llah has said in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts";

"..The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!......

.......Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words "Be and it is......"

Regards Tony

Yes, that elusive third temple I keep hearing about. Where could it be?

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Zechariah 6:12-13

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:22-23

And who is 'The Branch' that builds it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, that elusive third temple I keep hearing about. Where could it be?

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Zechariah 6:12-13

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:22-23

And who is 'The Branch' that builds it?

I have applied for my wife and I to go on pilgrimage and again witness the fulfillment of that Prophecy! the heart longs to visit where the Temple now rests.

The New Jerusalem!

Call out Oh Zion!

Regards Tony.

 

[Vinayaka]

I clicked on the above so as to message you....
I've got something that might interest you.......
It is reported that in order to aid proselytization in some areas in India, the use of Hindu symbols was incorporated in some way in the Bahai teaching, or texts, or somehow.

This reminds me of how Christianity was reversed into some other cultures and religions in Europe.

Here is a link:-

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol2/india2.htm

:Baha'i Bhajans: An example of the Baha'i Use of Hindu Symbols

Yes, the Catholics started that, even having their fathers dress in the ocre robes reserved for Hindu Sannyasis. They turned their hymns into bhajans, put gopurams (tower style doorways) on their churches, wore bindus, (forehead marks) and more. All to make it look like, 'we're really no different than you'.

But the worst, I think, is in the schools. Outside money establishes a school, and then... "let the reprogramming begin!" , at an early vulnerable age. The result was a weakening all around, and many confused people, not wholly Catholic, nor wholly Hindu, often attempting to hold two very contradictory beliefs at the same time.

The Baha'is are now following suit, although nowhere near to the same degree. They have far less money and resources, and are small in numbers in India. Under the disguise of ethics classes, they throw in the 'Let's remember who Baha'u'llah is' as well. It's deception, underhanded, and only bad karma can accrue for those people directly involved.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have applied for my wife and I to go on pilgrimage and again witness the fulfillment of that Prophecy! the heart longs to visit where the Temple now rests.

The New Jerusalem!

Call out Oh Zion!

Regards Tony.

Why do Bahai's have to apply (to the UHJ, I presume) to go on pilgrimage. Don't they trust their own people?

 

[oldbadger]

Why do Bahai's have to apply (to the UHJ, I presume) to go on pilgrimage. Don't they trust their own people?

Years ago Bahais were not allowed to go to Israel unless they had special permission.
There are very important Bahai buildings there and I guess that any small problem with a Bahai visitor could put all in jeopardy.

 

[Vinayaka]

Years ago Bahais were not allowed to go to Israel unless they had special permission.
There are very important Bahai buildings there and I guess that any small problem with a Bahai visitor could put all in jeopardy.

Thanks. Here's a link to the epitome of Catholics disguised as Hindus, talking on all the external Hindu trappings.

About | Saccidanandaashram.com

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you - I now have another problem though...how many letters did Baha'u'llah write to the Kaiser? And how many different versions are there in the Baha'i literature.

In any case, this final sentence - if it is actually addressing the King of Berlin (its actually in a new paragraph in the document you linked to and - by the last clause - addressed to "the concourse of kings" and not any one of them in particular...but anyway...

What Baha'u'llah's prophecy now says is that the Kaiser might be "brought down" mercilessly to the grave by the "All-merciful" or he might live somewhat longer and then die. Again, I think I could make predictions like that.

My observations are different. I see in some of the Tablets, Bahaullah is prophesying the fall of the kingdoms, rather than the death of the king.
Those are two different things. In some He is also saying God will soon take his life, now that is prophecy of the death of the person, in addition to the fall of the kingdom.

.

Yes I did - you were attempting to set up the Shah's long reign despite his opposition to Baha'u'llah and the Babis as a precedent example of divine patience to excuse the fact that Baha'u'llah's judgemental prophecy against the King of Berlin was not meted out precipitously.

So overall, Baha'u'llah prophesied that some Kings would die and - eventually - they all died - thereby proving that Baha'u'llah was blessed with divine prescience. I think that just about sums up your argument so far.

I was referring to this:

The late Hájí `Abú’l-Hasan [Bazzaz] Shirází70 was present and asked Bahá’u’lláh, “After the martyrdom of Husayn ibn `Alí, the sovereignty of Yazid lasted no more than three years. Why is it
that, 50 years after the martyrdom of the Exalted One, Nasiri’d-Din Sháh still rules with full powers, inflicting day and night much injury on the Faith; and God has [seemingly] spared him?”
Bahá’u’lláh replied, “God has given him this clemency because of the error of some believers in the early days and their assassination attempt on him. But he too will have his day. You will see.”

All documents tagged "Bahaullah, Life of (documents)"

Here Hasan asked Bahaullah that when Yazid martyred Imam Hussein, God caused him to die in just 3 years, but when Nasiridin Shah martyred the Bab and His followers, he is still alive after 50 years, what is the reason?
Bahaullah gives him the reason, and then He says 'you see his death'.
Nasiridin Shah then was assassinated fairly soon after this certainly within the lifetime of Hasan, and thus this prophecy is fulfilled. But do not ask me to provide any additional info for this. If you think it was not fulfilled, try to refute it with evidence.


P.s. there is only one Tablet sent to Kaiser.
I notice that there are 2 or 3 compilations of the Tablets of Bahaullah to the rulers. In some of these compilations, The translator or the person who compiled these, sometimes omitted certain parts of them to make it more brief, that is the reason in some of them its not there. I checked the original Arabic Tablet, and the part we are discussing is there. It is not a separate paragraph in the Arabic. The English Translator or compiler put it in a separate paragraph. I know it gives the impression it is not part of the letter to Kaiser.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do Bahai's have to apply (to the UHJ, I presume) to go on pilgrimage. Don't they trust their own people?

You have asked why you are accused of being negative. Well ponder your question and ask yourself why you added the remark, "Don't they trust their own people?" We have talked about being the giver of Negation, that was highly negative and thus why did you add it to the question?

It is a 9 day Pilgrimage, this is a sponsered Pilgrimage and there are many tens of thousands wanting to go and each pilgrim is an invited guest of the Universal House of Justice. I think the intake is about 300 people each time now and as guests we are guided around all the Holy Places and told of the events at each location. We meet the current Universal House of Justice as their Guests.

One can go on other shorter pigrimages at any time, the 9 day is a lifetime special event.

This takes a lot if organisation and I would consider it is a great courtesy to the host country that they know the quantity of visitors they have to cater for. 300 split into maybe 10 groups and each ot the 10 groups then split into 3 smaller sections to alternate between the Holy sites at different times.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

You have asked why you are accused of being negative. Well ponder your question and ask yourself why you added the remark, "Don't they trust their own people?" We have talked about being the giver of Negation, that was highly negative and thus why did you add it to the question?

It is a 9 day Pilgrimage, this is a sponsered Pilgrimage and there are many tens of thousands wanting to go and each pilgrim is an invited guest of the Universal House of Justice. I think the intake is about 300 people each time now and as guests we are guided around all the Holy Places and told of the events at each location. We meet the current Universal House of Justice as their Guests.

One can go on other shorter pigrimages at any time, the 9 day is a lifetime special event.

This takes a lot if organisation and I would consider it is a great courtesy to the host country that they know the quantity of visitors they have to cater for. 300 split into maybe 10 groups and each ot the 10 groups then split into 3 smaller sections to alternate between the Holy sites at different times.

Regards Tony

Thanks for the information. I've been on many Hindu pilgrimages, and this (the idea you have to apply) just seemed so different. That's why I asked. If you have to apply, it seems that sometimes an application would be refused. That's the reason for my other comment.

In Hinduism, anybody can go anywhere any time, although some temples do have restrictions for non-Hindus.

 

[siti]

It may also be extremely significant in any explanation of how Bahauallah survived the mid 40s (and further) whilst his acquaintances, all well-to-do and well-acquainted, were being taken out to their deaths.

Certainly he received protection from both Russian and French diplomats - I believe that is a matter of historical record too.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for the information. I've been on many Hindu pilgrimages, and this (the idea you have to apply) just seemed so different. That's why I asked. If you have to apply, it seems that sometimes an application would be refused. That's the reason for my other comment.

In Hinduism, anybody can go anywhere any time, although some temples do have restrictions for non-Hindus.

I can tell you that yes it can be refused, I only know that there is a 3 year waiting list if you have been on a prior 9 day pilgrimage and you will be refused if you apply within that 3 years. This does not stop you going on the shorter pilgrimages, but they do require notification as well.

Personally I could not raise the funds to go for just a short time.

There are guidelines as to who can apply for the 9 Day Pilgrimage and the requirements and guidelines for the shorter pilgrimages.

It will be the House if the Bab and Baha'u'llah that will be the first part of Pilgrimage in the Future. I would envisage that many would follow the route of the Banishment of Baha'u'llah. Personally I would start the walk tomorrow along that route, if we could. That would be a lifetime experience not to be forgotten it is 1000's of km.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks for the information. I've been on many Hindu pilgrimages, and this (the idea you have to apply) just seemed so different. That's why I asked. If you have to apply, it seems that sometimes an application would be refused. That's the reason for my other comment.

In Hinduism, anybody can go anywhere any time, although some temples do have restrictions for non-Hindus.

Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist sect and SGI Buddhism you need sponsors to be apart of their faith just as Catholic sponsors to would-be Catholics. Jehovah Witness has a sponsorship thing and Santeria (Catholic influenced African faith)

A lot of the evangelical religions have sponsorship. I started practicing Kadampa Buddhism and they don't have sponsorship. I asked one monk at a Thai temple when I called and he answered as if I were crazy. In America, there is a thing that "spirituality is free" so a lot of people aren't accustomed to it. I don't know about Canada but it's a western thing. I think it's not that they don't trust but more the more people a religion evangelizes, the more it needs to organize who is part of the faith etc.

SGI is somewhat like UHJ in that it is a "government" to the members of that religion. All the actions and dictations of that religion goes through the president (alive, though) just as Bahai to Bahaullah and other prophets etc.

It has to do with evangelism rather than relationship between the members. One SGI member told me that I needed to pay for the sacrament in order to be officially apart of the organization of worship.

That Catholic/Hindu link is. just. sad.

 

[siti]

The late Hájí `Abú’l-Hasan [Bazzaz] Shirází70 was present and asked Bahá’u’lláh, “After the martyrdom of Husayn ibn `Alí, the sovereignty of Yazid lasted no more than three years. Why is it
that, 50 years after the martyrdom of the Exalted One, Nasiri’d-Din Sháh still rules with full powers, inflicting day and night much injury on the Faith; and God has [seemingly] spared him?”
Bahá’u’lláh replied, “God has given him this clemency because of the error of some believers in the early days and their assassination attempt on him. But he too will have his day. You will see.”

Mirza Habib, whose recollection this is, was 16 when he met Baha'u'llah in 1891 and he wrote it down in the 1940s - some 50 years later. That's an incredibly long time to wait to reveal such an astonishing fulfillment of prophecy wouldn't you say? I'm sorry but that is definitely not permissible evidence. He could have just been doing the traditional Baha'i thing - making up stories to excuse the glaring failures of Baha'u'llah's "prophecy".

Now - getting back to an earlier story you were making up - please tell me what happened in 4157 BCE.

 

[Vinayaka]

I can tell you that yes it can be refused, I only know that there is a 3 year waiting list if you have been on a prior 9 day pilgrimage and you will be refused if you apply within that 3 years. This does not stop you going on the shorter pilgrimages, but they do require notification as well.

Personally I could not raise the funds to go for just a short time.

There are guidelines as to who can apply for the 9 Day Pilgrimage and the requirements and guidelines for the shorter pilgrimages.

It will be the House if the Bab and Baha'u'llah that will be the first part of Pilgrimage in the Future. I would envisage that many would follow the route of the Banishment of Baha'u'llah. Personally I would start the walk tomorrow along that route, if we could. That would be a lifetime experience not to be forgotten it is 1000's of km.

Regards Tony

Did the Israeli government establish a quota?

In India, the pilgrimage to Amarnath Cave has a quota, and you do have to apply. It's all for security reasons, as there are potential hazards with terrorists. The path is also long and narrow, and if a million people went, the effect would be devastating, and would overwhelm the guest houses, security, and the environment. It's also dependent on weather.