How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist sect and SGI Buddhism you need sponsors to be apart of their faith just as Catholic sponsors to would-be Catholics. Jehovah Witness has a sponsorship thing and Santeria (Catholic influenced African faith)

A lot of the evangelical religions have sponsorship. I started practicing Kadampa Buddhism and they don't have sponsorship. I asked one monk at a Thai temple when I called and he answered as if I were crazy. In America, there is a thing that "spirituality is free" so a lot of people aren't accustomed to it. I don't know about Canada but it's a western thing. I think it's not that they don't trust but more the more people a religion evangelizes, the more it needs to organize who is part of the faith etc.

SGI is somewhat like UHJ in that it is a "government" to the members of that religion. All the actions and dictations of that religion goes through the president (alive, though) just as Bahai to Bahaullah and other prophets etc.

It has to do with evangelism rather than relationship between the members. One SGI member told me that I needed to pay for the sacrament in order to be officially apart of the organization of worship.

That Catholic/Hindu link is. just. sad.

In my small parampara (Guru-lineage) the sponsorship would be only through the Guru himself. It's not open to anyone, as you have to meet certain qualifications. We're all under 4 vows, for example. So there are only about 400 members, but maybe 10 000 supporters and maybe 50 000 well wishers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In my small parampara (Guru-lineage) the sponsorship would be only through the Guru himself. It's not open to anyone, as you have to meet certain qualifications. We're all under 4 vows, for example. So there are only about 400 members, but maybe 10 000 supporters and maybe 50 000 well wishers.

I guess thats similar to initiations here. Any lay practitioner can worship at the temple but ceremonies like the Vajrasatva Empowerment can only be taken by practitioners who want to be initiated into the Vajarastva worship or practice. Each Buddha and Bodhisattva has initiations before you are told what prayers go with that specific Buddha. But you dont need to apply or pay, though.

In less modern Buddhist traditions, it would probably be like yours in tantric. Tantric has a lot of Indian custom practices like the full bow you showed in your tradition (very affective by the way) and visualizations and language that isnt in Japanese Buddhism like Nichiren.

I know a teacher is needed if going to advanced levels of practice say to become guru or take higher buddha initiations. I dont know if one is needed just to practice and travel to sacred sites if they are any desginated as sacred.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did the Israeli government establish a quota?

In India, the pilgrimage to Amarnath Cave has a quota, and you do have to apply. It's all for security reasons, as there are potential hazards with terrorists. The path is also long and narrow, and if a million people went, the effect would be devastating, and would overwhelm the guest houses, security, and the environment. It's also dependent on weather.

I have not looked into it, but I am sure there would be protocol in place.

As you know this is a special time and it should be a positive experience. In saying that all that happens is to make us better people.

When I returned from my 9 Day pilgrimage with ny son in 2014, I got servere food poisoning at Tel Aviv aiport from a tuna sandwich 2 hrs into a 30 hr flight schedule, including a 6 hr stop over. I was lucky they let me on the 2nd flight but it was not good all the way.

That is life.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

Actually the Surih of the Temple is considered by Baha'is to be one of Baha'u'llahs more challenging works and relates fulfilment of prophecies in Zechariah regarding the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple.

Súriy-i-Haykal (Súrih of the Temple), by Ghasem Bayat

I fail to see the relevance of this - we were discussing the claimed evidence of Baha'u'llah's prophecies about falling 19th century monarchs not claims of fulfillment of OT prophecy which, presumably, Baha'u'llah had never read anyway. Are you inclined to these absent-minded diversions naturally or is it a deliberate ploy to deflect attention from a losing argument?

 

[Vinayaka]

I know a teacher is needed if going to advanced levels of practice say to become guru or take higher buddha initiations.

That's the same as for us. The Gurus work more closely with the monks in the monastery, who would be more 'advanced'. Family people still get great benefit though, because the teaching is actually individualized. Most of our world wide congregation would have a personal interview 'catch up' every couple of years, or we can email him directly. My branch of Hinduism is really close philosophically and in practice to Buddhism.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have not looked into it, but I am sure there would be protocol in place.

As you know this is a special time and it should be a positive experience. In saying that all that happens is to make us better people.

When I returned from my 9 Day pilgrimage with ny son in 2014, I got servere food poisoning at Tel Aviv aiport from a tuna sandwich 2 hrs into a 30 hr flight schedule, including a 6 hr stop over. I was lucky they let me on the 2nd flight but it was not good all the way.

That is life.

Regards Tony

That's brutal.

Food poisoning in India is part of the pilgrimage, but to get it just before a flight is brutal. The night before we left for Mauritius (Edmonton-Seattle-Dubai-Mauritius) we took my daughter out for supper. I'm never going out to a restaurant again just before some long flight. India is another story entirely. About the only thing you can do is stay at high end hotels, unless you have an iron gut.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's the same as for us. The Gurus work more closely with the monks in the monastery, who would be more 'advanced'. Family people still get great benefit though, because the teaching is actually individualized. Most of our world wide congregation would have a personal interview 'catch up' every couple of years, or we can email him directly. My branch of Hinduism is really close philosophically and in practice to Buddhism.

Nice. The temple I go to, they are literally just building it; it's a renevation of an old baptist church (lots of churches here). I have met some of the other monks but more so the nun who spoke at our Dharma talk. I think its no more than fifty people or so that came to the ceremony I went to. Its small enough to talk with all the monks in person but not to small to know people in person unless one is a regular. I assume they have the temple open longer hours and more days once everything is set up. Right now Im trying to make a routine of going there since Im graduating and will have more time on my hands.

Hmm. Well, The Buddha was Hindu after all. I dont know what branch or anything like that though.

 

[oldbadger]

Certainly he received protection from both Russian and French diplomats - I believe that is a matter of historical record too.

Yes. I was thinking of Russian, then Turkish, and later some British .... protection.
But......... Why?
Nobody has ever explained exactly how this level of 'interest' was of any use to these countries. And when Bahauallah is reported (by some) to have been having a bad time in some places, it begins to appear as if he was an honoured guest. And in some places 'prison' was 'commfortable exile'.
What I am interested to discover (I'm bored and can't sail my model boat in this weather) is the EXACT dates that he moved from one place to another, EXACTLY what his conditions were, HOW he was paying for his lifestyle....... ALL the way through, in one clear Timeline of Truth.

That's what I want, a timeline-of-truth.

That's going to be a tough search.........

 

[oldbadger]

That's brutal.

Food poisoning in India is part of the pilgrimage, but to get it just before a flight is brutal. The night before we left for Mauritius (Edmonton-Seattle-Dubai-Mauritius) we took my daughter out for supper. I'm never going out to a restaurant again just before some long flight. India is another story entirely. About the only thing you can do is stay at high end hotels, unless you have an iron gut.

Although almost impossible, we are advised NEVER to handle money without sterising hands after, or sterilsing before eating food or even touching the face/mouth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is a long post about nothing but for the sake of moving forward I agree that the Big Bang was not recorded in writing by anyone who was there at the time and that if I were to successfully predict the presence in a particular place on a particular day of a German-speaking man in green pants and black hat and fulfilling 100 signs that prove he is the man I am talking about you would not reasonably deny that this was indeed the man I was referring to. .

Ok. So, let me continue a little more with this example of the German speaking man with 100 signs, because then I would use this as an analogy to explain religious prophecies of the End Time.

Now, suppose, I had never seen you, neither it is possible for me to meet you, therefore instead of you speaking to me directly, you had sent me all those promises about the German speaking, and 100 signs in letters/writings. Farther suppose you wanted to give me the day I should expect him; you tell me (in your letters), from the Day Siti's son was born, until the German Speaking comes there will be 6 days. I think with myself, I have neither seen Siti's son, nor I witnessed he was actually born, how can I then possibly count from that time? Thus, what you do is this: another day, your letter comes to me and tells me, from today till the appearance of the promised one, 4 days has remained. Again two days later, your letter comes to me and tells me, we have only 3 days left to the promised one. Thus every day and the same way you do the 'Count Down' and reminder, until finally when 1 day is left, you give the final reminder. Then suddenly I see the next day, in the same place, the man with all the 100 signs appears. Now, think about the following, and tell me, which one is a reasonable objection:
1. Is it reasonable I argue that, since I did not see when your son was born, nor ever seen him, therefor your prediction was false, or that you lied about your son's birth?
2. Is it reasonable that I argue that since I had never seen Siti, and I do not even know he is a real person, or someone else is pretending it is him, all these must be inventions and lies (though the prediction came to pass)?
2. When I see the promised man, he tells me, look, I am the one Siti had said. All the signs are in me. I speak German, I appeared 6 days from his son's birth, and my cloths are same colors he told you. I say, no! even though I see you have all the 100 signs, it is obvious you are pretending to be that person, because, you did not go though every 100 signs and describe they match you. You only referred to a few, and then generally claim you are him, having all the signs.


Now, this is how this analogy is related to the religious prophecies: It was said that when 6000 years is passed from the manifestation of Adam, the old world ends, and a new World comes, which is the day of Manifestation of the Lord. Though we did not see Adam, but, after Him came the word of God again and again, and reminded us of this promised, each time giving a 'Count Down'. For instance, Daniel said only 2300 years has left from the rebuilt of temple to the end. Muhammad said only 1260 years left until the end time. Other Prophets before them had even said 3000 years left. Now, when the Bab appeared, He exactly had all the signs, He appeared just exactly 1260 years after Muhammad, and exactly 2300 years after rebuilt of the Temple. Is it really reasonable to reject Him, though He has all the signs that the previous prophets and the Imams of Shia and Quran alluded? They even had alluded that His name will be 'Ali Muhammad', and when He comes He will be 20-30 years old. They even said When He comes He will be imprisoned for 6 years and after Him another Person comes, who lives 40 years and many other signs which all appeared in the Bab, and Bahaullah, with no signs that ever failed to appear in Them, and their numbers are many!

.

Now please proceed to tell me what happened in 4157 BCE.

Even based on time lines in the Bible, many scholars agree that currently more than 6000 years has passed from the time of Adam. Even I found one from a Christian Site, saying Adam created in 4157 or 4156 BC!

In Baha'i View, 6000 years before 1844, a Manifestation of God had appeared. He started a 6000 years Cycle in which many Prophets was to come for progressive revelations. Then when the Bab came, He declared the old world ended, and a new human era begins.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Certainly he received protection from both Russian and French diplomats - I believe that is a matter of historical record too.

That is again another presumption! Suppose that even Bahaullah did receive some kind of help from a Russian diplomat who made Persians to realize Bahaullah was not behind the attacks to the Persian King. How would this even disprove Bahaullah's claim? Should not the Manifestation of God in a reasonable manner exercise His super natural power to cause others to help His cause when He wants? Why do you think that God who has power over all thing, could not cause a diplomat help Him? See! this is just another excuse. Though all the signs that were prophesied by previous Prophets has appeared in the Bab and Bahaullah, how can even anything else disprove that They are who They have said?!

See what Bahaullah wrote in Iqan:

"Furthermore, by sovereignty is meant the all-encompassing, all-pervading power which is inherently exercised by the Qá’im whether or not He appear to the world clothed in the majesty of earthly dominion. This is solely dependent upon the will and pleasure of the Qá’im Himself... That sovereignty is the spiritual ascendancy which He exerciseth to the fullest degree over all that is in heaven and on earth...."

The above tells us, that the Qa'im (the Manifestation of God) exercises His Spiritual Power, the way He wants. It is obvious that, when we see the Bab and Bahaullah appeared with all the signs foretold by previous Prophets, we should not be surprised to see They could, if They wanted to, though Their Spiritual Power influence anyone when and how They wanted!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mirza Habib, whose recollection this is, was 16 when he met Baha'u'llah in 1891 and he wrote it down in the 1940s - some 50 years later. That's an incredibly long time to wait to reveal such an astonishing fulfillment of prophecy wouldn't you say?

.

Just because it was collected 50 years later, does it make it false? Why?

.

I'm sorry but that is definitely not permissible evidence. He could have just been doing the traditional Baha'i thing - making up stories to excuse the glaring failures of Baha'u'llah's "prophecy"..

Which failure of Bahaullah's Prophecy? Please quote from Bahaullah, the Prophecy you speak of and show it was failed.

 

[siti]

Ok. So, let me continue a little more with this example of the German speaking man with 100 signs, because then I would use this as an analogy to explain religious prophecies of the End Time.

Now, suppose, I had never seen you, neither it is possible for me to meet you, therefore instead of you speaking to me directly, you had sent me all those promises about the German speaking, and 100 signs in letters/writings. Farther suppose you wanted to give me the day I should expect him; you tell me (in your letters), from the Day Siti's son was born, until the German Speaking comes there will be 6 days. I think with myself, I have neither seen Siti's son, nor I witnessed he was actually born, how can I then possibly count from that time? Thus, what you do is this: another day, your letter comes to me and tells me, from today till the appearance of the promised one, 4 days has remained. Again two days later, your letter comes to me and tells me, we have only 3 days left to the promised one. Thus every day and the same way you do the 'Count Down' and reminder, until finally when 1 day is left, you give the final reminder. Then suddenly I see the next day, in the same place, the man with all the 100 signs appears. Now, think about the following, and tell me, which one is a reasonable objection:
1. Is it reasonable I argue that, since I did not see when your son was born, nor ever seen him, therefor your prediction was false, or that you lied about your son's birth?
2. Is it reasonable that I argue that since I had never seen Siti, and I do not even know he is a real person, or someone else is pretending it is him, all these must be inventions and lies (though the prediction came to pass)?
2. When I see the promised man, he tells me, look, I am the one Siti had said. All the signs are in me. I speak German, I appeared 6 days from his son's birth, and my cloths are same colors he told you. I say, no! even though I see you have all the 100 signs, it is obvious you are pretending to be that person, because, you did not go though every 100 signs and describe they match you. You only referred to a few, and then generally claim you are him, having all the signs.


Now, this is how this analogy is related to the religious prophecies: It was said that when 6000 years is passed from the manifestation of Adam, the old world ends, and a new World comes, which is the day of Manifestation of the Lord. Though we did not see Adam, but, after Him came the word of God again and again, and reminded us of this promised, each time giving a 'Count Down'. For instance, Daniel said only 2300 years has left from the rebuilt of temple to the end. Muhammad said only 1260 years left until the end time. Other Prophets before them had even said 3000 years left. Now, when the Bab appeared, He exactly had all the signs, He appeared just exactly 1260 years after Muhammad, and exactly 2300 years after rebuilt of the Temple. Is it really reasonable to reject Him, though He has all the signs that the previous prophets and the Imams of Shia and Quran alluded? They even had alluded that His name will be 'Ali Muhammad', and when He comes He will be 20-30 years old. They even said When He comes He will be imprisoned for 6 years and after Him another Person comes, who lives 40 years and many other signs which all appeared in the Bab, and Bahaullah, with no signs that ever failed to appear in Them, and their numbers are many!

.
Even based on time lines in the Bible, many scholars agree that currently more than 6000 years has passed from the time of Adam. Even I found one from a Christian Site, saying Adam created in 4157 or 4156 BC!

In Baha'i View, 6000 years before 1844, a Manifestation of God had appeared. He started a 6000 years Cycle in which many Prophets was to come for progressive revelations. Then when the Bab came, He declared the old world ended, and a new human era begins.

Honestly IT I get all that - I understand it...but here's the problem...

The 6000 years thing is a common belief in Abrahamic circles...

...and the 1000 years is as 1 day to God thing...

...and the seventh day Sabbath (Jubliee/Millennium/thousand year rule of "Christ"...etc.) thing...

and none of this was new in Daniel's day, or in Muhammad's day...

So it is no really great surprise that someone like Daniel (or more likely the "priest" or "scribe" or whoever who used Daniel as a pen name) might have counted back in the genealogical tables and thought to himself - OK - its been about 3700 years now according to the records so there must be about 2300 years left...and then about a thousand years later Muhammad (or someone) comes along and says well its been another thousand years now so there must only be about 1300 (actually 1260) years left now. And then someone gets it down to the exact year 1844 CE - and guess what happens - a man who has deliberately set off to find the "Promised One" whose appearance marks the end of the 6000 years based on these calculations does indeed find someone who seems to fit the bill and sits down and persuades him that he is "the One"...but here's the problem...

Nothing really happened in 4157 BCE - Siti never had a son in the first place in your illustration and the letters you received were not from Siti at all but from others working on the false assumption that Siti did have a son on the exact day that was indicated, and who sincerely wanted the vision to come true - and they even went so far as to find a German-speaking friend, dress him up in the right clothes and have him "appear" on the street at the right time...

...and here's the problem...if what I am suggesting was what really happened...how could you possibly know it? Of course I could be wrong - it would be equally difficult to know for sure that the various calculations and letters etc. were not true. But common sense tells me to err on the side of skepticism - otherwise I have to believe every "messiah" that comes along unless I have incontrovertible proof that he is lying.

 

[siti]

Suppose that even Bahaullah did receive some kind of help from a Russian diplomat

He did - that was the only point I was making. He did receive help from the Russian Ambassador - his life was spared at the intervention of the Russian Ambassador after the Babi attempt on the Shah's life. After his release from prison he was offered refugee status in Russia, which he declined. He chose instead to go into exile in Baghdad and was escorted there by a representative of the Russian Ambassador.

 

[siti]

Just because it was collected 50 years later, does it make it false? Why?

Did I say that? I said it is not acceptable as evidence because there is considerable reason to suspect that it might not be an accurate recollection of exact words spoken by Baha'u'llah. Please stop deliberately misinterpreting my comments.
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Which failure of Bahaullah's Prophecy? Please quote from Bahaullah, the Prophecy you speak of and show it was failed.

It is perfectly clear from my comments that I do not believe that Baha'u'llah specifically prophesied the downfall of the Shah (which is why I put "prophecy" in inverted commas) but here is how Baha'u'llah's words are interpreted by faithful Baha'is:

In one of His warnings Baha'u'llah foreshadowed the fate that overtook the Persian dynasty.

"Ye shall, erelong, discover the consequences of that which ye shall have done in this vain life, and shall be repaid for them . . . This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back." -Gleanings, page 125​

- William Sears, The Prisoner and the Kings (Chapter 9, Section 2)

I'm not sure but this looks like the kind of stuff Baha'u'llah was writing when he was in Adrianople - so about 1868. It also looks like it was addressed to the Ottoman "Ministers of State" who had ordered Baha'u'llah to leave Constantinople and go to Adrianople (presumably because his influence and lack of direct cooperation with the Ottoman authorities made him a bit of a nuisance in Constantinople) - so it wasn't really about the Shah at all. But even if it was, how long is "erelong"? It would be another 26 years before the Shah's assassination, and almost 60 before the fall of the Qajar dynasty.

And here is the interpretation of the Guardian himself:

The vain and despotic Náṣiri’d-Dín Sháh, denounced by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Prince of Oppressors”; of whom He had written that he would soon be made “an object-lesson for the world”​

- Shogi Effendi, God Passes By (p. 225)

I don't know where Baha'u'llah wrote this prophetic warning to the Shah - do you? As far as I can make out from the Tablet to the Shah (and there are various translations of varying length and content of this), Baha'u'llah merely reminded the Shah of the transient nature of both wealth, prosperity and power (such as the Shah enjoyed) and of suffering and maledictions (such as Baha'u'llah was enduring at the time).

If any of this is to be taken as a specific prophecy of the early demise of the Shah's rulership, then it fails miserably. The Shah was indeed assassinated - becoming at least the sixteenth ruler of Persia to be killed, blinded or otherwise violently dethroned in two centuries, the longest reigning monarch of the entire Qajar dynasty and the third longest reigning monarch in two and a half millennia of recorded Persian history. If anything, it looks like God rewarded him with an improbably long reign (almost 50 years) in spite of the political turmoil overtaking the entire world - and especially the middle east - during the second half of the 19th century.

Now I will make a prophecy - I prophecy that you will respond to this in a deliberately obtuse and deflective manner pretending that none of the clear historical evidence that has been presented for your education and enlightenment matters - or even exists.

[Please note that after a little more research I have discovered that at least 16 monarchs of Persia were either executed, blinded, murdered, assassinated or otherwise violently overthrown in the 200 years immediately prior to Baha'u'llah's supposed prophecy regarding the downfall of Nasir al Din Shah Qajar - I have edited above accordingly - but what this means is that even if Baha'u'llah did intend to prophecy the Shah's assassination, by the recent history of the Persian monarchy at the time, he was merely predicting something that happened on average once every decade or so

Of the previous ten Persian monarchs 7 had been overthrown and killed, two are unknown cause of death and only one was known to have died of natural causes - gout - and that was Nasir al Din's father at the age of 40. None lived longer and none reigned longer than Nasir al Din Shah].

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Did I say that? I said it is not acceptable as evidence because there is considerable reason to suspect that it might not be an accurate recollection of exact words spoken by Baha'u'llah. Please stop deliberately misinterpreting my comments.
.
It is perfectly clear from my comments that I do not believe that Baha'u'llah specifically prophesied the downfall of the Shah (which is why I put "prophecy" in inverted commas) but here is how Baha'u'llah's words are interpreted by faithful Baha'is:

In one of His warnings Baha'u'llah foreshadowed the fate that overtook the Persian dynasty.

"Ye shall, erelong, discover the consequences of that which ye shall have done in this vain life, and shall be repaid for them . . . This is the day that shall inevitably come upon you, the hour that none can put back." -Gleanings, page 125​

- William Sears, The Prisoner and the Kings (Chapter 9, Section 2)

I'm not sure but this looks like the kind of stuff Baha'u'llah was writing when he was in Adrianople - so about 1868. It also looks like it was addressed to the Ottoman "Ministers of State" who had ordered Baha'u'llah to leave Constantinople and go to Adrianople (presumably because his influence and lack of direct cooperation with the Ottoman authorities made him a bit of a nuisance in Constantinople) - so it wasn't really about the Shah at all. But even if it was, how long is "erelong"? It would be another 26 years before the Shah's assassination, and almost 60 before the fall of the Qajar dynasty.

And here is the interpretation of the Guardian himself:

The vain and despotic Náṣiri’d-Dín Sháh, denounced by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Prince of Oppressors”; of whom He had written that he would soon be made “an object-lesson for the world”​

- Shogi Effendi, God Passes By (p. 225)

I don't know where Baha'u'llah wrote this prophetic warning to the Shah - do you? As far as I can make out from the Tablet to the Shah (and there are various translations of varying length and content of this), Baha'u'llah merely reminded the Shah of the transient nature of both wealth, prosperity and power (such as the Shah enjoyed) and of suffering and maledictions (such as Baha'u'llah was enduring at the time).

If any of this is to be taken as a specific prophecy of the early demise of the Shah's rulership, then it fails miserably. The Shah was indeed assassinated - becoming at least the sixteenth ruler of Persia to be killed, blinded or otherwise violently dethroned in two centuries, the longest reigning monarch of the entire Qajar dynasty and the third longest reigning monarch in two and a half millennia of recorded Persian history. If anything, it looks like God rewarded him with an improbably long reign (almost 50 years) in spite of the political turmoil overtaking the entire world - and especially the middle east - during the second half of the 19th century.

Now I will make a prophecy - I prophecy that you will respond to this in a deliberately obtuse and deflective manner pretending that none of the clear historical evidence that has been presented for your education and enlightenment matters - or even exists.

[Please note that after a little more research I have discovered that at least 16 monarchs of Persia were either executed, blinded, murdered, assassinated or otherwise violently overthrown in the 200 years immediately prior to Baha'u'llah's supposed prophecy regarding the downfall of Nasir al Din Shah Qajar - I have edited above accordingly - but what this means is that even if Baha'u'llah did intend to prophecy the Shah's assassination, by the recent history of the Persian monarchy at the time, he was merely predicting something that happened on average once every decade or so

Of the previous ten Persian monarchs 7 had been overthrown and killed, two are unknown cause of death and only one was known to have died of natural causes - gout - and that was Nasir al Din's father at the age of 40. None lived longer and none reigned longer than Nasir al Din Shah].

Dear siti, The Prophecy you referred is not for the King of Persia (nasiridin shah).


To the Ministers of the Turkish State, He, in that same Tablet, revealed: “It behooveth you, O Ministers of State, to keep the precepts of God, and to forsake your own laws and regulations, and to be of them who are guided aright… Ye shall, erelong, discover the consequences of that which ye shall have done in this vain life, and shall be repaid for them… How great the number of those who, in bygone ages, have committed the things ye have committed, and who, though superior to you in rank, have, in the end, returned unto dust, and been consigned to their inevitable doom!…


Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 172-179

So, if you still want to go ahead and show which Prophecy of Bahaullah about Nasiridin shah failed.

 

[siti]

I prophecy that you will respond to this in a deliberately obtuse and deflective manner

Dear siti, The Prophecy you referred is not for the King of Persia (nasiridin shah).


To the Ministers of the Turkish State, He, in that same Tablet, revealed: “It behooveth you, O Ministers of State, to keep the precepts of God, and to forsake your own laws and regulations, and to be of them who are guided aright… Ye shall, erelong, discover the consequences of that which ye shall have done in this vain life, and shall be repaid for them… How great the number of those who, in bygone ages, have committed the things ye have committed, and who, though superior to you in rank, have, in the end, returned unto dust, and been consigned to their inevitable doom!…


Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 172-179

So, if you still want to go ahead and show which Prophecy of Bahaullah about Nasiridin shah failed.

I rest my case.

Actually I don't rest my case - IT I know that this was addressed to the Ministers of State in Turkey - I even stated that in my post:

looks like it was addressed to the Ottoman "Ministers of State" who had ordered Baha'u'llah to leave Constantinople and go to Adrianople

Please don't dodge the question again, just answer directly to the following:

Did Baha'u'llah make any specific prophetic reference to the death or downfall of the Shah? Yes/No

If Yes - quote it.

If no then explain why both William Sears and Shogi Effendi claim he did?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

He did - that was the only point I was making. He did receive help from the Russian Ambassador - his life was spared at the intervention of the Russian Ambassador after the Babi attempt on the Shah's life. After his release from prison he was offered refugee status in Russia, which he declined. He chose instead to go into exile in Baghdad and was escorted there by a representative of the Russian Ambassador.

This is what Bahaullah wrote about how He was freed from that Prison:


"Call Thou to mind God’s mercy unto Thee; how, when Thou wert imprisoned with a number of other souls, He delivered Thee and aided Thee with the hosts of the seen and the unseen, until the King sent Thee to ‘Iráq after We had disclosed unto him that Thou wert not of the sowers of sedition.".

Here Bahaullah referring to Himself, that God caused Him to be freed through the hosts of seen and Unseen!

Now think about it. Why the Russian diplomat's help did not reach Bahaullah as soon as He was imprisoned? Why after 4 months He was freed? Why should the Russian diplomat even want to offer Him help, and if they wanted, why not immediately?

 

[siti]

Now think about it. Why the Russian diplomat's help did not reach Bahaullah as soon as He was imprisoned? Why after 4 months He was freed? Why should the Russian diplomat even want to offer Him help, and if they wanted, why not immediately?

OK - I'm thinking about it...er...um...ah! yes...maybe because his release was the result of diplomacy - which necessarily takes time - rather than divine intervention which presumably does not.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I rest my case.

Actually I don't rest my case - IT I know that this was addressed to the Ministers of State in Turkey - I even stated that in my post:

Please don't dodge the question again, just answer directly to the following:

Did Baha'u'llah make any specific prophetic reference to the death or downfall of the Shah? Yes/No

If Yes - quote it.

If no then explain why both William Sears and Shogi Effendi claim he did?

What you are referring as, was not written in the Tablet that Bahaullah sent to the king of Persia.
'If' william sears said that, it would be a mistake.

Shoghi Effendi did not say, this was a Prophecy written in the Tablet that Bahaullah sent to the king.


This is what Shoghi effendi wrote:

...when in the course of a single year, as attested by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, “more than four thousand souls were slain, and a great multitude of women and children left without protector and helper,” the murderous and horrible acts subsequently perpetrated by an insatiable and unyielding enemy covered as wide a range and were marked by an even greater degree of ferocity.
Náṣiri’d-Dín Sháh, stigmatized by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Prince of Oppressors,” as one who had “perpetrated what hath caused the denizens of the cities of justice and equity to lament,” was, during the period under review, in the full tide of his manhood and had reached the plenitude of his despotic power.


Nasiridinshah was born in 1831 and was assassinated in 1896 at age about 65.
Bahaullah wrote His Tablet to Him about 1870 (more or less).
I cannot find where Bahaullah said soon He will be object lesson to the World, my guess is, this would be in the final years of Bahaullah's earthly life. But, first we cannot say how soon is not too late to think the prophecy failed, and secondly this prophecy is fulfilled in a sense that when the king was healthy and powerful and exactly when he was celebrating his 50th year or so, of kingdom, he was assassinated, thus he became such an object lesson for the world to see even when a man is in such a worldly glory, all the sudden he can loose it all!


Therefor none of this can be used to invalidate the authenticity of the words of Bahaullah witnessed by Mirza Habib. Moreover, it is not like in those days the Bahais or non-bahais were questioning a prophecy of Bahaullah. There is no such an evidence. Even if hypothetically lets assume there was, it would have made sense that mirza habib would make Up such a thing much earlier. Why waiting for 50 years to collect it?