How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh was it? My bad! I'm terribly sorry...

Apology accepted.

Out of interest what was the correct response? I wouldn't want to make the same mistake twice!

The quote that was provided;

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

Given my answer as to the intent below;

I am talking about the whole unfolding of the world since the mid 1800's, not just one or two happenings.

The problem may be that I have had 30 years of reading what Baha'u'llah offered and see each day these words becomming more and more the elixer mankind is implementing. Wheras you may not see that, as you may not have read it all.

I actually have really no need to say much more than just that.

I wil keep being amazed and you can choose your level of participation in that aspect.

God indeed does have his finger on the pulse of mankind.

This is what you offered in refernce to that quote above;

"...So now you are claiming that not only do we need a divine manifestation to tell us that a King will eventually die, but that this is such a new idea that it was entirely unknown until All-knowing physician revealed it through Baha'u'llah in the 1870s! How sadly ignorant and deluded our ancestors were 150 years ago! They had no concept of death.

What do you think was more appropriate?

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh it goes much further than that Tony - as you must know very well:

"And now, concerning the House of Justice which God hath ordained as the source of all good and freed from all error" - The Will and Testament of Abdul Baha p.14

So not only is Baha'u'llah incapable of making a mistake but so are Abdu'l Baha, Shogi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice...

...which is kind of good for my argument against the explicit fulfillment of supposed prophecies regarding the Kings of the earth and "divine patience" accorded on account of their responses because the infallible UHJ admits that there is no evidence to support the supposed responses of either Napoleon III or Queen Victoria to the Tablets addressed to them and no evidence that the messages addressed to the Kaiser, the Czar, Pope Pius IX or Emperor Franz Josef were ever delivered to them. And, on top of that, the only actual evidence that any of the tablets were actually delivered to any of them comes from Nabil and Shogi Effendi - both of whose testimonies are rendered doubtful by the UHJ's comments regarding the letter to the Pope and the response of Queen Victoria (see below).

Tablets to the Kings

They are, however, extremely careful not to directly contradict Baha'u'llah or Shogi Effendi...e.g.

In relation to Pope Pius IX, while Bahá'u'lláh is reported to have stated that the Epistles "reached their destination", there Is some question about whether this particular Tablet was actually delivered to the Pope, as suggested by the following extract from a letter dated 15 November 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer: ​

It seems likely that Bahá'u'lláh's Tablet to the Pope was never delivered to him.
​

And...

Shoghi Effendi in "The Promised Day is Come", p. 65, states:

Queen Victoria, it is said, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her remarked: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm."... ​

In response to a question addressed to Shoghi Effendi about Queen Victoria's reported statement, his secretary, in a letter dated 21 February 1942 written on his behalf, indicated that:

But as we have no written statement to this effect, we cannot be sure about it. We do not know where the original of this statement is. Bahá'u'lláh praised her acts, but she did not turn to Him.​

All I can say is that you guys seem to have mastered the Guardian's art of speaking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time.

LOL. I think in your haste and excitement you have confused Tony and I.

I would imagine that Baha'u'llah's tablets would have been of no consequence whatsoever to any of the Western Rulers and Kings. Other than Czar Alexandra II why would they? Baha'u'llah knew that, especially if He was guided by God's unerring guidance. It raises the question as to why He wrote them in the first place.

Since you are taking an interest the Baha'i concept of infallibility this letter from the research department of the Universal House of Justice may be of interest.

The Infallibility of the Universal House of Justice

 

[siti]

Thank you - I now have another problem though...how many letters did Baha'u'llah write to the Kaiser? And how many different versions are there in the Baha'i literature.

@InvestigateTruth - no need to respond on this either - I figured it out...

The "letter" to the King of Berlin was not really a letter but part of a book (THE Book - the Kitab-i-aqdas) and that has the "patience" thing in it but in a paragraph that seems to be addressing kings generally ("O concourse of Kings") rather than the King of Berlin specifically - which might be why in the other version, in the book "Proclamation of Baha'u'llah" - which seems to have been written in 1967 (?) does not include the "patience" paragraph in the message it claims was sent to the Kaiser.

This book, in its introduction, also claims "His Tablets to particular kings and to the Pope, although delivered, were either ignored or rejected, their wise counsels and dire warnings went unheeded" which is directly contradicted by the UHJ in response to a question about the delivery of the tablets to the various kings (see my previous response to Adrian - or was it Tony - or Adrian?).

The plot thickens...

 

[siti]

LOL. I think in your haste and excitement you have confused Tony and I.

Not haste and excitement - more like age and senility...for some reason I keep thinking of you as a "Tony". I cannot imagine why.

Other than Czar Alexandra II why would they?

I don't get this - why would the Czar (Alexander by the way) be any different from the others? There is no evidence that the Czar ever received the Tablet addressed to him anyway.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You avoided my comment entirely. Lots of other religious leaders say the same things, in different words, and contexts. He is not the only one. Dharmic faiths believe the core of man is identical to, or right in the presence of God. So perhaps that utopia you speak of is there, except it's on the inside of each individual waiting to be discovered, not just in external words of man.

Of the two Christian services I went to in my life, one really struck a chord. The preacher preached about giving, to the rich crowd of townfolk, all happy in their shared pride. It was disgusting to me, my wife, and the soul who is reborn as my son. So when we left we went and spent all the money in our wallets and bought food. Then we went to the down and out side of town to distribute it, the street where the churchpeople wouldn't dare go, lest they be seen amongst the riffraff. That cheered the three of us up some.

Regardless of how creative a teacher's words are, can you practice any of it?

Thats very true. We must lead by example. People expect no less than words backed up by deeds.

 

[siti]

What do you think was more appropriate?

Since the topic under discussion that you responded to with your out of context quote was the specific prophecies of Baha'u'llah regarding the downfall and demise of various kings, I think I'll go with mine after all!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not haste and excitement - more like age and senility...for some reason I keep thinking of you as a "Tony". I cannot imagine why.

Perhaps because of excellence in theatrics...



Or perhaps we come across as a couple of clowns!

I don't get this - why would the Czar (Alexander by the way) be any different from the others? There is no evidence that the Czar ever received the Tablet addressed to him anyway.

Remember the close ties between the Persians and Russians? The Russian minister in Tehran effectively saved Baha'u'llah's life by advocating for His release from the the Siyah-Chal 1852.

Russia

Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

 

[siti]

Remember the close ties between the Persians and Russians? The Russian minister in Tehran effectively saved Baha'u'llah's life by advocating for His release from the the Siyah-Chal 1852.

Oh I see! Yes! But then Baha'u'llah's Brother in Law was secretary to the French Ambassador too don't forget. And there is no evidence at all that the Czar ever received his letter from Baha'u'llah. like you said - since there was very little likelihood that they would be read by the kings and since there was not much chance of them even being delivered to them, one wonders why he even wrote them at all. Perhaps he just thought if he wrote about Kings dying and they did eventually happen to die some people would be thoroughly convinced that this must have been a divine revelation! Nah! He couldn't have thought people would be so gullible could he?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh I see! Yes! But then Baha'u'llah's Brother in Law was secretary to the French Ambassador too don't forget. And there is no evidence at all that the Czar ever received his letter from Baha'u'llah.

I didn't realise that about the brother-in-law. Such connections would have resulted in Baha'u'llah being taken a little more seriously. Most importantly, we know the contents of the tablets. The tablets to the Rulers, particularly Neopolean III, Czar Alexandra II, Pope Pius IX, and Queen Victoria along with the Surih of the temple make up a particularly important set of writings with prophetic significance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since the topic under discussion that you responded to with your out of context quote was the specific prophecies of Baha'u'llah regarding the downfall and demise of various kings, I think I'll go with mine after all!

Ok you do that

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

That is why many writings await the people with the required skills, detachment and motive and time.

Regards Tony

So you say.............

 

[oldbadger]

You can leave this question @InvestigateTruth, I have found the answer from the Research Department and UHJ and the Guardian himself:

The Research Department has been able to find a statement in a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, specifically regarding the reaction of Queen Victoria to the Tablet addressed to her:

...as we have no written statement to this effect, we cannot be sure about it. We do not know where the original of this statement is.
(21 February 1942 to an individual)
​

Napoleon III and Queen Victoria, Responses to the Tablets of Baha'u'llah

So as I suggested, it really does appear that Queen Victoria's supposed Gamaliel-like response is apocryphal.

Incidentally, they've known this since 1997 and yet the claim that Victoria responded along the lines of "if this is from God it will last, if it is not it can do no harm" has not been deleted from any Baha'i documents and, indeed, has been perpetuated in books and articles written since then.

See? I gottit right!
Can I have a gold star?
Oh alright, a silver one will do.

And please don't suggest that Bahai docs are deceptive. You know that only Bahai docs are true.

 

[oldbadger]

Therefore it is proved that Baha'u'llah broke no law in regards to His marriages.

Proved................. !


Surely you don't need proof?
Let me ask you...... if somebody, anybody, provided any 'proof' about anything to do with Bahai that you didn't like, would you would stuff fingers in ears, close eyes and just keep calling 'Nah! Nah! Nah!' until it went away?

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, that was the insinuation. Around and around in intellectual circles of self-praise. I've seen it before with anyone who thinks they have something special, not realising the guy sitting next to them might too. It's the guy who tries to dominate at meetings, the guy who can't listen to other viewpoints, and the guy who gets upset when he doesn't get his own way. All talk, no action, as the saying goes.

I clicked on the above so as to message you....
I've got something that might interest you.......
It is reported that in order to aid proselytization in some areas in India, the use of Hindu symbols was incorporated in some way in the Bahai teaching, or texts, or somehow.

This reminds me of how Christianity was reversed into some other cultures and religions in Europe.

Here is a link:-

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/bhpapers/vol2/india2.htm

:Baha'i Bhajans: An example of the Baha'i Use of Hindu Symbols

 

[siti]

Such connections would have resulted in Baha'u'llah being taken a little more seriously. Most importantly, we know the contents of the tablets. The tablets to the Rulers, particularly Neopolean III, Czar Alexandra II, Pope Pius IX, and Queen Victoria along with the Surih of the temple make up a particularly important set of writings with prophetic significance.

Well perhaps - and perhaps such connections would also explain (as I pointed out in the first place) why Baha'u'llah seemed relativley well-informed about the recent history of France and Russia - and his knowledge of the British position on slavery - given that the Brits had recently tried to persuade the Shah to abolish slavery - and his relative ignorance of other politically important empires such as China and Japan which were definitely immensely important in the unfolding of 19th/20th century history (which is what Tony claims the prophecies were all about). As to their "prophetic significance" - if you interpret the vague suggestion that such a King might die at some point as prophetically significant then yes - otherwise he says nothing that a reasonably intelligent, reasonably informed (perhaps through connections to diplomats) political commentator might have predicted. Shahs, Czars and, in particular, French rulers were quite routinely deposed, dethroned, assassinated or otherwise got rid of through the course of the 18th and 19th centuries. It was no biggie to predict that a Shah or Czar would soon be seen off or that confusion would reign in France. On these topics please see my earlier posts.

 

[siti]

See? I gottit right!
Can I have a gold star?
Oh alright, a silver one will do.

And please don't suggest that Bahai docs are deceptive. You know that only Bahai docs are true.

there you go!

 

[CG Didymus]

Not exactly but its all paradise here.

Do you mind the colour orange?

Which room has the view of the mountains?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is a long post about nothing but for the sake of moving forward I agree that the Big Bang was not recorded in writing by anyone who was there at the time and that if I were to successfully predict the presence in a particular place on a particular day of a German-speaking man in green pants and black hat and fulfilling 100 signs that prove he is the man I am talking about you would not reasonably deny that this was indeed the man I was referring to.

Now please proceed to tell me what happened in 4157 BCE.

Wasn't Noah floating in the middle of the ocean about that time?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no reason Christians and Baha'is can not be close friends.

Christ and Baha'u'llah both taught to love all, love you enemies, see the good in people and not the bad, and treat others as you would have them treat you.

Yes close friends if you don't talk about religion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Which room has the view of the mountains?

The mountains are about 3 1/2 hours drive away. The West Coast of the South Island has often been described as the eighth wonder of the world.

Milford Sound: The eighth wonder of the world | Fiordland, New Zealand

The view from the conservatory area of your downstairs room would be a tranquil native bush setting with bird song to accompany those harmonious folk-jazz chords from blissful moments of music.

So definitely no Armageddon going on here. That's all been and gone. I hear that even American politics can have their bright spots.