How are these Great Beings explained?

[oldbadger]

This is just all too typical. You're making a statement for other people, without even knowing them. Of the many ex-Baha'i stories I have read, many did in fact say that they felt they had no voice, and were indeed pushed away. And now you're totally denying that that is even a remote possibility. I wonder what some of these torn, sincere, disillusioned and sad people would say to you.

Of course, I'm not pushed away, but I'm not a Baha'i'. I'm just a human reaching out to support anyone who feels sad, or that there is no hope to get away from a cult, when there is.

At least there are many IT sites that can communicate with ex bahais. Thank goodness for the internet in such situations.

I can't so much get excommunicated from my beliefs by mankind, but of course my Deity can send a large bus to do the job, or the pond pump could go wrong..... !

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm just glad I'm not an Abrahamic, and have little interest in it. I've discovered that besides a prophet and a book, history, and debating history is also a favorite theme.

Hinduism has a vast array of books that only a few people study diligently, no prophets, and a far greater focus on the present than the past. Very different paradigms.

As an Abrahamic we’re talking about now presently building a world spiritual civilization focused on the here and now very, very much. All our teachings focus on current issues and all over the world the ideas and principles of Baha’u’llah are spreading like wildfire.

The Teachings of Baha’u’llah inspired things like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the equality of men and women multiculturalism and interfaith dialogue in such organisations like the World Parliament of Religion.

When He taught these principles they were not universally accepted at the time. Even things we take for granted today like universal education were not common then. The equality of man, men and women, abolishment of slavery, an end to racism and prejudices of all kinds and a new system based on consultation we’re ideas not prevalent at the time He revealed them. Afterwards however we see things emerge like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UN and such world bodies as the Parliament of Religion, interfaith, multiculturalism. A completely relevant agenda for the here and now and future. Very, very relevant.

There is not a hamlet, village, town, city, country, religion, race, class, sport, political organisation or people that has not been deeply affected and changed by His Teachings.

Ideas like slavery and racism and oppression of women were commonly accepted among the masses until this Revelation dawned. Now humanity is rejecting almost everything Baha’u’llah rejected and leaning towards accepting much of what he teaches.

In fact, the world us discovering that adopting these teachings is the way they want to go even though they are unaware of their true Source.

 

[loverofhumanity]

At least there are many IT sites that can communicate with ex bahais. Thank goodness for the internet in such situations.

I can't so much get excommunicated from my beliefs by mankind, but of course my Deity can send a large bus to do the job, or the pond pump could go wrong..... !

I think what you’re failing to see is the just side.

You just see freedom and human rights without looking at justice.

Imagine you are a Muslim today who is a devout believer but because of some extremists people now spit in your face or deride you? What have you done?

Wouldn’t you want Muslims to excommunicate these imposters so people can distinguish between you and them?

A Baha’i who makes a mistake is of no importance to our religion or our Institutions.

The only person, which is rare, would be a person trying to turn Baha’i against Baha’i or create a following for himself or establish another Bahá’í sect other than what Baha’u’llah created.

There are only a very few who have been excommunicated. And we don’t hate them but it’s like quarantine. When a person is sick he must be separated from the rest to protect them.

Don’t you think this is far better than having the millions of lives lost in sectarian wars say for instance between Iran and Iraq? Or Isis?

The Baha’i Faith remains the only religion of the major religions that has not been involved in any war sectarian or political precisely because we don’t allow ourselves to be infiltrated by corrupt individuals which is rare but can happen.

Other believers we are free to mix with.

But no one has complete freedom in the Baha’i Faith to do whatever he or she wishes.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is the only thread I follow. To determine if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, for me, is the most important thing to find out. I hope nobody leaves. There's been incredible questions. I only wish more people would post and ask some questions.

If you're finding that out, I would highly recommend probably going to their place of worship and, yes, taking a break from this thread or at least don't reply for a bit. As for asking questions, I think the rest of us know more about Bahaism than we thought we would since this thread started. A few Bahai asked about our faith. I rarely saw anyone ask anything of @Vinayaka faith even though he says it's through experience only, asking wouldn't hurt. I did offer a back and forth discussion on the suttas but after all the suttas I posted, Bahai only has a handful they interpret through Bahai lens and others are around Buddhists but still interpret the practice and culture through Bahai lens.

Maybe if others engaged in everyone's faith and moral views, you'd see how Bahai engages in humanity and how they, by example, bring people together by their speech and not just their actions. I don't know if they get that because Bahaullah stated that actions are above speech; which makes it odd to be on a debate forum if you are only being offered Bahai information but never converse about anything unless it has to do with the information offered.

It's a closed ended conversation. However, the history and date conversation is pretty interesting. Now that is a huge step towards a more extensive conversation. Still Bahai, but at least pass the basics.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is the only thread I follow. To determine if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, for me, is the most important thing to find out. I hope nobody leaves. There's been incredible questions. I only wish more people would post and ask some questions.

I’ll ask then. Let’s say we are Christians and we are awaiting the return of Christ right? How will we know it’s Him when He does actually come?

How would you determine whether it’s really Jesus or not because anyone can claim to be Jesus returned?

No ones seen His Face so that’s out. If He came in the sky well today we have a space station with people in the sky so what’s saying they couldn’t be the return?

If He’s supposed to come like a thief then does that mean the blokes who robbed the Bank of England were the second coming?

As Christians we could not say He wasn’t returning. So what could we do?

What about referring to the statement in the Bible about false Prophets that we shall know them ‘by their fruits’? It says a good tree does not bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree or person does not do good or bear good fruit.

So we can rule out people like Hitler right? So then we’re looking basically for someone good and godly Who would bring a new kind of world with Him. Not in His Hand literally but in the form of a seed or a blueprint.

The seed contains also the genetic instructions necessary to grow a tree and bring forth the fruit so too a Christ could come and bring the seed or blueprint for an entire new civilization?

But then it says ‘every eye shall see Him”. Right but at the same time? Or within one year or 20 years or 200 hundred years it doesn’t say. It doesn’t say ‘every eye shall see Him ‘instantly’. That is what Cheristians are told but it doesn’t say that.

So we are left to use reason, logic, science and see if we can’t come up with a better solution than the 40,000 divided sects of Christianity which maintain He hasn’t yet come.

But the Jews have returned to their homeland which was an unmistakeable sign. So where does that leave us?

It’s a work in progress for most so keep working at it and maybe we can see if reason and logic can’t find out more.

 

[oldbadger]

I think what you’re failing to see is the just side.

That's what is so dangerous about Bahai.
The alternative is not unjust, it's just the alternative.
Bahai thinks it is so infallible.......... very dangerous.

You just see freedom and human rights without looking at justice.

FREEDOM and HUMAN RIGHTS IS JUSTICE!

Imagine you are a Muslim today who is a devout believer but because of some extremists people now spit in your face or deride you? What have you done?

I'm a Deist, and around here Muslims live in our community just fine.
In your world they wouldn't even get the vote!

Wouldn’t you want Muslims to excommunicate these imposters so people can distinguish between you and them?

Excuse me! My very first actions would be to seek to arrest, charge, prosecute, convict and sentence thugs who spit in peoples faces!
And we stand against terrorists as well.

A Baha’i who makes a mistake is of no importance to our religion or our Institutions.

The only person, which is rare, would be a person trying to turn Baha’i against Baha’i or create a following for himself or establish another Bahá’í sect other than what Baha’u’llah created.

Rubbish! Rubbish!
Bahai has chucked out people who wanted to be open with ALL the history of Bahai. People who still believe in Bahai but with openess and honesty.

There are only a very few who have been excommunicated. And we don’t hate them but it’s like quarantine. When a person is sick he must be separated from the rest to protect them.

A very few?
The www is bunged full of people who were dumped or dissillusioned by Bahai.

Don’t you think this is far better than having the millions of lives lost in sectarian wars say for instance between Iran and Iraq? Or Isis?

What a Bahai World run by a fundamentalist, Infalliable, dictatorial Bahai Government that has no chance of ever being replaced? ................. with a police force which could puit down any alternative propositions?

Do yourself a favour, mate, come over to London sometime and get a taxi to Speaker's Corner on any Sunday Morning. LIsten to the ideas and different Speakers............ some seem quite crazy to me, but they HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY MOSTLY ANYTHING THEY WANT!

You can keep your Bahai...... I've found out too much about it.

The Baha’i Faith remains the only religion of the major religions that has not been involved in any war sectarian or political precisely because we don’t allow ourselves to be infiltrated by corrupt individuals which is rare but can happen.

Bahai is not a major religion, and it is at war since its very conception. Family wars, Babi/Bahai Wars, Estrangements, etc. These are wars...... you just haven't got big enough to raise forces big enough as yet..... if ever.

Other believers we are free to mix with.
But no one has complete freedom in the Baha’i Faith to do whatever he or she wishes.

What?
I can see a time coming when Bahais will only be allowed to chant from the writings like parrots...... or be disciplined. I've seen a bit of that here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Vinayaka

Thank you, that is Affirmation.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's what is so dangerous about Bahai.
The alternative is not unjust, it's just the alternative.
Bahai thinks it is so infallible.......... very dangerous.


FREEDOM and HUMAN RIGHTS IS JUSTICE!


I'm a Deist, and around here Muslims live in our community just fine.
In your world they wouldn't even get the vote!


Excuse me! My very first actions would be to seek to arrest, charge, prosecute, convict and sentence thugs who spit in peoples faces!
And we stand against terrorists as well.


Rubbish! Rubbish!
Bahai has chucked out people who wanted to be open with ALL the history of Bahai. People who still believe in Bahai but with openess and honesty.


A very few?
The www is bunged full of people who were dumped or dissillusioned by Bahai.


What a Bahai World run by a fundamentalist, Infalliable, dictatorial Bahai Government that has no chance of ever being replaced? ................. with a police force which could puit down any alternative propositions?

Do yourself a favour, mate, come over to London sometime and get a taxi to Speaker's Corner on any Sunday Morning. LIsten to the ideas and different Speakers............ some seem quite crazy to me, but they HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY MOSTLY ANYTHING THEY WANT!

You can keep your Bahai...... I've found out too much about it.


Bahai is not a major religion, and it is at war since its very conception. Family wars, Babi/Bahai Wars, Estrangements, etc. These are wars...... you just haven't got big enough to raise forces big enough as yet..... if ever.


What?
I can see a time coming when Bahais will only be allowed to chant from the writings like parrots...... or be disciplined. I've seen a bit of that here.

Tell Assad his freedom to murder anyone he likes is called justice and I suppose he’ll agree and he probably agrees with you that it is his right to gas them too.

Freedom to do whatever one wants is in no way justice or true freedom. Terrorists and dictators act with complete freedom and you say that is just? So Hitler using his freedom to do whatever he wanted has your obvious approval of the gassing of 6 million Jews? That is called freedom?

True freedom is not to do whatever one wants but a regulated freedom with restraints to protect man from himself.

So apartheid in South Africa was also freedom according to you?They did freely as they liked. They exercised complete freedom to do whatever they wanted but the world rose against them.

Freedom with justice is true freedom but freedom without any restraints or laws is why we have Muslims attacking blowing up buses or being attacked on them because of the freedom of the press to continually demonize one religion or race called racial profiling.

There are some freedoms which are pure evil such as giving Hitler or the popes to burn and gas people. Complete freedom is chaos. We are headed to that kind of world now.

I’ve been a Bahá’í for 40 years and married to a Bahá’í for 40 years and they are people just like you except for your demonizing.

Same here with the Domain on Sundays. It’s harmless banter mostly. I remember Charlie who was a fan of Bertrand Russell who was one of the weekly speakers there. He hated priests and the church but always invited me to stand on his soapbox to talk about Baha’i And he always said that to him of all religions, Baha’i made the most sense.

I am free to speak freely but even in Australian law I do not have freedom to abuse someone’s race, religion, nationality or gender or to verbally chastise others.

But freedom to murder or be a terrorist or character assassinate or defamation of character is not freedom of speech but injustice and a crime and Baha’is are forbidden to engage in it.

But overall I think you’d make a great editor for the Tehran post as demonizing the Baha’i Faith is something you do very well.

Do you believe in any of the right freedoms like freedom of minority’s from persecution or freedom from religious persecution?

I wish there was more substance I could debate but I think that it’s good for you to let out how you really feel. I did that not long before I dedicated my entire life to this Cause.

You should look up your Babi/Baha’i history. Babis were hunted down like animals for their beliefs and there was never a war going on but persecution of an entire community based on the wrong actions of a few Babis without the consent of the Bab.

There is no religion in the world that has not been involved in a fully blown out war except the Baha’i Faith. Our record is clean and speaks for itself as far as no war is concerned.

 

[oldbadger]

Tell Assad his freedom to murder anyone he likes is called justice

Tell him yourself!
I never mentioned that name.

So Hitler using his freedom to do whatever he wanted has your obvious approval of the gassing of 6 million Jews

What a disgusting insult at me.
Why do Bahais like you think you can make such disgraceful assumptions?
You're on a public forum and making prejudices like that, yet pretending to be without bigotry?
Disgraceful.

True freedom is not to do whatever one wants but a regulated freedom with restraints to protect man from himself.

....and people like you get to decide what freedom is?
How terrifying!

So apartheid in South Africa was also freedom according to you?

Disgraceful and insulting presumption.

Freedom with justice is true freedom but freedom without any restraints or laws is why we have Muslims attacking blowing up buses or being attacked on them because of the freedom of the press to continually demonize one religion or race called racial profiling.

Here in the UK we don't need your prejudice!
Muslims here have been murdered by hateful terrorists, possibly whipped up by stuff like the above.

There are some freedoms which are pure evil ....

Gotcha!
Gotcha!
So easy to catch out the real truth of your beliefs.
BAHAI DOES NOT BELIEVE EVIL EXISTS!

I’ve been a Bahá’í for 40 years and married to a Bahá’í for 40 years and they are people just like you except for your demonizing.

Disgraceful prejudice!
Your true nature just popped out, for all of RF and the world to see.
And you are a Bahai.

I am free to speak freely but even in Australian law I do not have freedom to abuse someone’s race, religion, nationality or gender or to verbally chastise others.

WEll don't abuse all Islam, then.

But freedom to murder or be a terrorist or character assassinate or defamation of character is not freedom of speech but injustice and a crime and Baha’is are forbidden to engage in it.

You just defamed mine, matey, several times.
Disgrace!

But overall I think you’d make a great editor for the Tehran post as demonizing the Baha’i Faith is something you do very well.

I don't need to. They have you, writing posts like that one.

Do you believe in any of the right freedoms like freedom of minority’s from persecution or freedom from religious persecution?

Unbelievable.
You rant on about how demonising I am, and how I support evils, and then want to have a chat.

I wish there was more substance I could debate but I think that it’s good for you to let out how you really feel. I did that not long before I dedicated my entire life to this Cause.

Well you sure do damage it with stuff like this last post.

You should look up your Babi/Baha’i history. Babis were hunted down like animals for their beliefs and there was never a war going on but persecution of an entire community based on the wrong actions of a few Babis without the consent of the Bab.

I won't be taking much notice of your claims. I seek a detached and historical review of all.

There is no religion in the world that has not been involved in a fully blown out war except the Baha’i Faith. Our record is clean and speaks for itself as far as no war is concerned.

After what you just wrote, I have absolutely no doubts about how Bahai would treat unbelievers.

IMO that was the most disgraceful outburst on the thread.
So that's Bahai with the gloves off, eh?

 

[oldbadger]

How are they going to unite the world by pushing people like you away? Something is not right.

How do you think it's going?
If you want to find out true natures, just push back a little........ and blam!
I've been waiting for a Bahai to correct a Bahai, but I cannot remember seeing that happen, although they have some different angles on things.
I showed a Bahai symbol a few hundred pages back, allowed on badges, rings etc and a Bahai called it 'The Greatest Name', which is banned on rings and personal badges etc and it was not that emblem at all. An obvious mistake to even me, but not one member corrected the fault.
It's the Bahais who correct the more serious faults that might be the ones who get distanced.

I'll stick it up again to save you wondering what it looked like. If a Bahai won't explain its meaning I will try, later.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'll stick it up again to save you wondering what it looked like. If a Bahai won't explain its meaning I will try, later.

"The ringstone symbol was designed by `Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'u'lláh's son and successor, and as its name implies, is the most common symbol found on rings worn by Bahá'ís, but it is also used on necklaces, book covers, and paintings. It consists of two stars (haykal) interspersed with a stylized Bahá’. The lower line is said to represent humanity and the world of creation, the upper line the world of God, and the middle line represents the special station of Manifestation of God and the world of revelation; the vertical line is the Primal Will or Holy Spirit proceeding from God through the Manifestations to humanity. The position of Manifestation of God in this symbol is said to be the linking point to God. The two stars or haykals represent Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've been waiting for a Bahai to correct a Bahai, but I cannot remember seeing that happen, although they have some different angles on things.

Each person is on their own journey and each has to come to terms with their own actions and responses.

It has been offered only to look for the good in all things and this in turn fosters and builds unity.

If we are searching for Light we do not find it in dark places.

It is good you search for the truth in all matters. Where to and what to focus that search upon, is your choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Religious Debates area is intended to be a venue for members to have respectful, civil dialogues and debates with each other. All debates of this kind are welcomed and even encouraged.

In accordance with the forum's mission statement, under no circumstances is harassment of other beliefs, attempting to undermine or misrepresent a specific belief system(s), targeting a specific group(s) for verbal attacks, or proselytizing/preaching allowed on the forums.

Religious Debates - Note About Forum Rules

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It would be great to get back to explanations of the Great Beings.

I see the Golden Rule as the best example of a common foundation, so what did the Great Beings say!

Versions of the Golden Rule in dozens of religions and other sources

 

[Dawnofhope]

It would be great to get back to explanations of the Great Beings.

I see the Golden Rule as the best example of a common foundation, so what did the Great Beings say!

Versions of the Golden Rule in dozens of religions and other sources

I agree.

If we can have a mutually respectful, courteous interfaith discussion, then that's the best.

If it descends into accusations and counter accusations, then best not to engage.

Without attributing blame, the tone of the discussion is no longer conducive to civility IMHO.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Tell him yourself!
I never mentioned that name.


What a disgusting insult at me.
Why do Bahais like you think you can make such disgraceful assumptions?
You're on a public forum and making prejudices like that, yet pretending to be without bigotry?
Disgraceful.


....and people like you get to decide what freedom is?
How terrifying!


Disgraceful and insulting presumption.


Here in the UK we don't need your prejudice!
Muslims here have been murdered by hateful terrorists, possibly whipped up by stuff like the above.


Gotcha!
Gotcha!
So easy to catch out the real truth of your beliefs.
BAHAI DOES NOT BELIEVE EVIL EXISTS!



Disgraceful prejudice!
Your true nature just popped out, for all of RF and the world to see.
And you are a Bahai.


WEll don't abuse all Islam, then.


You just defamed mine, matey, several times.
Disgrace!


I don't need to. They have you, writing posts like that one.


Unbelievable.
You rant on about how demonising I am, and how I support evils, and then want to have a chat.


Well you sure do damage it with stuff like this last post.


I won't be taking much notice of your claims. I seek a detached and historical review of all.


After what you just wrote, I have absolutely no doubts about how Bahai would treat unbelievers.

IMO that was the most disgraceful outburst on the thread.
So that's Bahai with the gloves off, eh?

I’m always prepared to listen and try and explain our beliefs. Of course I humbly apologize if I offended you as that was not the intention but to drive home the point about excessive freedom and it’s abuse. Still I think we can debate intelligently and once again I sincerely apologize.

In fact, my post was the perfect example of one overstepping the bounds of propriety as described below by Baha’u’llah and it did not go down well which only proves that complete liberty is both harmful, offensive and hurtful so you indeed have my sincerest apology.

The Manifestations always come with appropriate laws for each age. Different ages had different concepts of freedom, justice and human rights. In this age Baha’u’llah does not grant complete freedom to do whatever one likes as it can be destructive.

Instead He has created laws and boundaries within which we can have a certain amount of freedom but not in the western sense.

We Baha’is have plenty of freedoms. But joining the Faith is conditional upon willing to follow the rules. If one does not accept the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice one does not join the Baha’i Faith but those who do join he Faith love to obey them.

So the issue of freedoms within the Faith are tied to ones voluntary membership. If one voluntarily accepts the Faith and laws then they have entered into a covenant to obey them. If they at any time decide they don’t want to be Baha’is anymore or don’t like or accept the Universal House of Justice’s decisions then there’s an open door for them to leave but as long as they want to stay and remain members they are bound by laws unless or until they resign which they can do at any time they pleas.

We don’t see a mass exodus of Baha’is or women from the Baha’i Faith which indicates people are happy and so are women not being on the House of Justice.

Baha’is don’t back or oppose governments or political parties. So our freedoms and human rights are not the same as the world’s. We can’t oppose the House of Justice. It’s our belief it was ordained by God so we don’t question it and we are united and peaceful.

Freedom of the press. Baha’u’llah only stated that the press should be like a mirror reflecting truth. Do we see that in today’s press? Language. In movies and tv and cinema now foul language is approved of. Baha’u’llah forbids this so you won’t ever see it in Baha’i publications or movies on behalf of the Faith.

So the very concept of freedom given by Baha’u’llah is that true freedom is to obey God’s laws.

“Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness.

The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh


“Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing.”

The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh


“Say: True liberty consisteth in man’s submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto perfect liberty.”


The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

Thus we Baha’is agree to be guided by Baha’u’llah laws on freedom as they are conducive to peace and unity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Up to about 15 months ago I acknowledged the Bahai Faith but just didn't believe in it.

But this last two threads have shown me so much about Bahai that I see as negative (I'm being kind there) that I cannot see how any Bahai could ever win me back to just being a disbelieving-neutral.

It's time for me to reduce my posts on this thread while I study the huge compilations of what I now see as the 'free-thinkers' about Bahai.

You couldn't make this up, how George Orwell's Novel contained so many of the elements of what I perceive to be the Bahai Organisation, and with the 'free-ones' on the outside, slandered and crushed in character, yet who stand for 'full-disclosure'.

For me, an ex student of Historical Jesus, the transition of focus to Historical-Bab and (later) to Historical-Bahauallah is a natural progression for a retired one needing a goal or two.

My understanding on this topic is we condition our own beliefs not anyone else.

It’s your life and ultimately your decision what you choose to believe in but the responsibility is yours. Baha’u’llah said our beliefs are decided by us alone not others.

The issue of Who Baha’u’llah is should really be your main concern if He is a Manifestation of God or not. His Writings alone truly represent Him not any person or thread. That is for you to decide and live with. We have each decided.

If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself. Baha’u’llah

 

[oldbadger]

I’m always prepared to listen and try and explain our beliefs. Of course I humbly apologize if I offended you as that was not the intention but to drive home the point about excessive freedom and it’s abuse. Still I think we can debate intelligently and once again I sincerely apologize.

In fact, my post was the perfect example of one overstepping the bounds of propriety as described below by Baha’u’llah and it did not go down well which only proves that complete liberty is both harmful, offensive and hurtful so you indeed have my sincerest apology.

No probs.
Thankyou for that.
It's forgotten.

Now, if you wish, let's just debate the word 'Freedom' and concepts that surround it, ok?

................... In this age Baha’u’llah does not grant complete freedom to do whatever one likes as it can be destructive.

OK...... so no change there, because guidances, rules and laws apply within the others.

Instead He has created laws and boundaries within which we can have a certain amount of freedom but not in the western sense.

We Baha’is have plenty of freedoms. But joining the Faith is conditional upon willing to follow the rules. If one does not accept the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice one does not join the Baha’i Faith but those who do join he Faith love to obey them.

OK......... so similar to other faiths' guidances, rules and laws.
Christianity has 1050, btw.

So the issue of freedoms within the Faith are tied to ones voluntary membership. If one voluntarily accepts the Faith and laws then they have entered into a covenant to obey them. If they at any time decide they don’t want to be Baha’is anymore or don’t like or accept the Universal House of Justice’s decisions then there’s an open door for them to leave but as long as they want to stay and remain members they are bound by laws unless or until they resign which they can do at any time they pleas.

OK, so freedom to leave etc like other faiths...............

We don’t see a mass exodus of Baha’is or women from the Baha’i Faith which indicates people are happy and so are women not being on the House of Justice.

So you have figures?
How many Bahais have joined, and how many (in total) left Bahai in, say, the last ten years?

Baha’is don’t back or oppose governments or political parties. So our freedoms and human rights are not the same as the world’s. We can’t oppose the House of Justice. It’s our belief it was ordained by God so we don’t question it and we are united and peaceful.

You are required, by Bahai and by the lands you reside within, to obey the laws of those lands. Previous debates on this thread have shown that Bahais in some lands are taking chances by not obeying their lands' laws, and they seem to be praised (by Bahais) in certain instances for doing this. Think about this before you challenge it.

Freedom of the press. Baha’u’llah only stated that the press should be like a mirror reflecting truth. Do we see that in today’s press? Language. In movies and tv and cinema now foul language is approved of. Baha’u’llah forbids this so you won’t ever see it in Baha’i publications or movies on behalf of the Faith.

You wandered there, from talking about truth to talking about foul language. If you held a conversation with some Brethren, any conversation for more than five minutes, they would probably feel disgusted about your speech............ you see? ...... fould language differs from one person to another.
Now......... reflecting truth is similar, in that you might not be able to accept some truths that an ex-bahai might have found. Or truths that I might find.

So the very concept of freedom given by Baha’u’llah is that true freedom is to obey God’s laws.

You used the word 'true', just there.
That's ok that you accept that truth, as long as Bahai never tries to dominate unbelievers with it.

“Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness.

The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

In my country Freedom of expression is all important, as long as it is not used to incite any crimes, harrassments, victimisations.
And Freedom of choice is all important, subject to keeping our laws.
We don't mind if you obey other rules and laws, but you must obey ours first.

“Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing.”

The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

My country doesn't mind if you obey private rules and laws, but application of private laws to the people is a criminal offence here.

Thus we Baha’is agree to be guided by Baha’u’llah laws on freedom as they are conducive to peace and unity.

....... and you agree, as Bahais, to obey your country's laws first.

I haven't got any problems with Bahais sticking to their own laws and keeping country-laws first. I know a person whose way of life forbids the consumption of anything that is 'animal', that's fine, but if he tried to enforce such laws on, say, my wife then he'd be in big trouble.

 

[oldbadger]

My understanding on this topic is we condition our own beliefs not anyone else.

It’s your life and ultimately your decision what you choose to believe in but the responsibility is yours. Baha’u’llah said our beliefs are decided by us alone not others.

The issue of Who Baha’u’llah is should really be your main concern if He is a Manifestation of God or not. His Writings alone truly represent Him not any person or thread. That is for you to decide and live with. We have each decided.

If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself. Baha’u’llah

Discovering my truth was never a responsibility, just a discovery.
It was never a decision but a surprising destination.
No list of warnings and threats could ever make any difference to what I found.

And the Deity I discovered is already far more careless about me than even your God would be, but it's what I could see, clear as day. I didn't clutch to a salvation, but what I could see.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No probs.
Thankyou for that.
It's forgotten.

Now, if you wish, let's just debate the word 'Freedom' and concepts that surround it, ok?


OK...... so no change there, because guidances, rules and laws apply within the others.


OK......... so similar to other faiths' guidances, rules and laws.
Christianity has 1050, btw.


OK, so freedom to leave etc like other faiths...............


So you have figures?
How many Bahais have joined, and how many (in total) left Bahai in, say, the last ten years?


You are required, by Bahai and by the lands you reside within, to obey the laws of those lands. Previous debates on this thread have shown that Bahais in some lands are taking chances by not obeying their lands' laws, and they seem to be praised (by Bahais) in certain instances for doing this. Think about this before you challenge it.


You wandered there, from talking about truth to talking about foul language. If you held a conversation with some Brethren, any conversation for more than five minutes, they would probably feel disgusted about your speech............ you see? ...... fould language differs from one person to another.
Now......... reflecting truth is similar, in that you might not be able to accept some truths that an ex-bahai might have found. Or truths that I might find.


You used the word 'true', just there.
That's ok that you accept that truth, as long as Bahai never tries to dominate unbelievers with it.


In my country Freedom of expression is all important, as long as it is not used to incite any crimes, harrassments, victimisations.
And Freedom of choice is all important, subject to keeping our laws.
We don't mind if you obey other rules and laws, but you must obey ours first.


My country doesn't mind if you obey private rules and laws, but application of private laws to the people is a criminal offence here.


....... and you agree, as Bahais, to obey your country's laws first.

I haven't got any problems with Bahais sticking to their own laws and keeping country-laws first. I know a person whose way of life forbids the consumption of anything that is 'animal', that's fine, but if he tried to enforce such laws on, say, my wife then he'd be in big trouble.

Thanks for being so gracious. I really didn’t deserve it but you have shown you are kind and I admire you’re example and take note to try and be likewise.

Now to the points you mentioned.

I don’t have any figures but as we are relatively few in numbers and closely knit so we would know if there was a mass exodus.

Obeying the laws of the land is the only option a Baha’i has. If we disobey the laws of the land we are often removed off the list of being ‘a Baha’i In good standing’ until the error has been corrected.

We too fully support and uphold freedom of expression except under the conditions you mentioned like inciting crime, hate or harassment and so on.

What is true for us is true for us only. We are supposed to learn from everyone Bahá’í or not and increase our capacity to be better people. We have a lot to learn from other religions which have been around for thousands of years as we are only the new kid on the block.

With obeying the laws of the land Bahais in Iran choose imprisonment, torture and death rather than give up their belief in Baha’u’llah. Iran apparently has Thought Police and Bahais are guilty of ‘Thought Crimes’ in their eyes but that’s typical off an Orwellian society where there is no choice to live and let live.