How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

It does seem as if Bahai is determined to expand by constant presentation as the only true way. A kind of selling to use a modern word.

There is the obvious reason for this and no easy way to say it but as Baha'u'llah has;

".....The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable"

The Tablet that is from was the concluding paragrath, this is how it started.

"....The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure......"

God is all wise, it is God that gives us all our Guidance and if the elixer for the ills of the world is the Message of Baha'u'llah, then all those that Love God will need to consider why they react as they do to each of Gods Messages.

I have no hope in my heart but that humanity finds its unity. It has no idea how to obtain it, but there has been a clear path given as how to go about it.

No one actually has to become a Baha'i for it to work, as unity in our diversity is a foundation. One given principal based in Love will unlock our hearts and if we use it for the good of all, it will foster our willingness to work together.

That is the Principal of Oneness. We are one human race and we have One God, we all live on this One Planet which is our home.

It is up to you if you think this will benefit a modern world or not. It takes a vision of greatness before we can work towards it.

Do you see another world embracing vision?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And the Final Answer is...

(Act 4:10) Be it known unto you all... the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, ...
(Act 4:11) This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
(Act 4:12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Thank you Whitestone. I enjoy attending Church services each week in my hometown. I have many a great chat with the Pastor.

A good story on Acts 4:11 can be read at this link.

Corner Stone

I hope you enjoy the story and how God works in mysterious ways, for all that offer prayers to God.

Regards Tony

 

[Whitestone]

Hi Tony. Thanks for your story. Here's my favorite story and sources and full meaning for the Stone of Acts 4:11:

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Daniel Interprets the Dream
Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
Dan 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

JESUS IS THAT CORNERSTONE;
(Eph 2:18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(Eph 2:19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
(Eph 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CHIEF CORNER STONE;
(Eph 2:21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Did your local pastor show any of this Word of God to you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did your local pastor show any of this Word of God to you?

We have great chats and we enjoy the Love of God together.

There is a lot to offer in what you posted and yes I see Christ is the cornerstone of the awaited 3rd Temple.

I see the 3rd Temple as the Father and not one of motar and stone.

The great thing about Biblical passages is there is one outward meaning that can be seen and then there are 70 spiritual meanings contained within. The outward meaning can blind us to the Glory of God in Christ, if we neglect to consider what else the passage may say.

This is what I see when Christ says I have a lot more to tell you and would do when the Spirit of Truth came to guide us to all Truth.

Christ "Annointed One", a great corner stone to undertanding all that is.

Here is a talk on Traditional Proofs from the Book of Daniel;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44

Hope you get to read that. You will note it uses the Prophecy of Daniel to prove the Message of Christ and offers more thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[Whitestone]

Jesus is the Corner stone upon which I am now founded. You are right, scriptures is quite clear that My body is the Temple of the Living God. It is this Temple in which He is the Chief Corner Stone. I look to no other thing, somewhere else, some "time" else... He is with me always even unto the ends of forever. I look to no man for insight or understanding, for the Glorious Resurrected Holy Spirit of Christ has Come into my Temple Body and has given me to know all things out of His Word. More over He has Anointed me with His Holy Spirit as an Oracle of His Word and has given me His Mind. Christ in me is His Hope of Glory.

This is where I Live...

Of a family begun by the Husband, Jesus, to His Wife, the Church;

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(Heb 12:23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(Heb 12:24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling...

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ...be married to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

(Rev 21:9) ...Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

(Rev 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(Rev 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Mar_3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar_3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
(Joh 3:6) that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
(Joh 3:7) 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

(Joh 16:21) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I have died to everything else and have been born from above Tony, and this is where I live now. These are the things I Glory in and Honor my Lord Jesus in, who has fashioned and beget me in Marriage, Christ in me the Hope of Glory. Do you know about these things Tony? I can assure you there is no higher knowledge, wisdom or understanding than what the Holy Spirit of Christ reveals to a repentant man who hates sin and loves righteousness and yearns for the face of Jesus and has absolute assurance of Eternal Life with Him, that He will be with me even unto the ends of forever. He has told me these things. Every one of them is contained in Holy Writ when I open the Bible and read it...

Is there something more than this? A better way? A better truth?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is there something more than this? A better way? A better truth?

God bless you always and there is no better questions than you have asked.

It is what God always wants us to ask our own selves and consider how it applies within ourselves, each and every day.

Most importantly, turn the answer to deeds.

Revellation chapters 11 and 12 contain great Truths.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

If we, all non-bahai, said in our replies "No," we are not in desire of a great spiritual teacher...

Our guides, gods, and/or many many teachers are no more different than you and I as a part of god, as great leaders, or as more than one teacher with whom are not greater or lesser but equal in relation to human beings...

How would you reply without telling us what you (bahai) believe?

The question was directed to other people not to Bahai.

Since the questions were directed to non-bahai (as well), wouldnt it be sensible to learn about our answers and the beliefs or opinions supporting them?

Would there be a need to express bahai beliefs more so than learn from others since the questions were meant to engage non-bahai rather than reflect positive or agreeable answers among those in your own faith?

(Hence the debate section)

Are you asking to learn from us or share your beliefs in relations to our reply?

If you all say that then the best thing maybe is to leave you to yourselves to go your own way and have no further discussion. Perhaps we should have ended discussion months ago but there were a lot of other questions which arose so we answered them. But as to learning of course if you read many of my posts I am still learning about Hinduism and have been learning from you all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Absolutely.
I was writing to another Bahai in answer to his posts.
You'd need to look back a short way to place my post into context.

I absolutely understand that Bahais are instructed by Bahai to obey the laws of the lands which they live in.

You mentioned it also to me in a previous post to me and said that the topic was in another thread I think so I have no idea which thread you were referring to and asked for clarification.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you all say that then the best thing maybe is to leave you to yourselves to go your own way and have no further discussion. Perhaps we should have ended discussion months ago but there were a lot of other questions which arose so we answered them. But as to learning of course if you read many of my posts I am still learning about Hinduism and have been learning from you all.

Hinduism is learned by experience so I think a different approach is best if Hindu wish to talk further about it.

Was the post OP addressed only to those who would agree with you and end the discussion with those who disagree with your OP? (Edit: in a debate forum?)

Wouldnt it be ideal to learn why we say no as the question wasnt address to bahai, right?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hinduism is learned by experience so I think a different approach is best if Hindu wish to talk further about it.

Was the post OP addressed only to those who would agree with you and end the discussion with those who disagree with your OP?

Wouldnt it be ideal to learn why we say no as the question wasnt address to bahai, right?

It was basicallly asking what people thought about these Great Beings as they have had such a great influence on civilization.

I have learned a lot from peoples answers especially those who have said no.

And we all proceeded to share our views with each other on Who these Great Beings were. We explored concepts like infallibility and the need or non need for these Educators. So it was always a learning for me.

As to Hinduism I fully agree only a Hindu can experience Hinduism but the truths enshrined in Hinduism anyone one the planet can learn. Truth and truths can be known to anyone with a pure heart.

 

[Vinayaka]

Perhaps we should have ended discussion months ago but there were a lot of other questions which arose so we answered them.

So you're admitting that the reason for this thread was to answer questions about Baha'i, and not actually to have a discussion about explaining 'great beings'?

Of course most of us knew that all along, but it's good to hear it from you too.

 

[Vinayaka]

As to Hinduism I fully agree only a Hindu can experience Hinduism but the truths enshrined in Hinduism anyone one the planet can learn. Truth and truths can be known to anyone with a pure heart.

Because Hinduism is an experiential religion with little dogma, you simply cannot learn it without experiencing it. If you deny the existence of darshan, for example, it would be inconceivable that you could believe in for others, let alone experience it for yourself.

From my discussions here and with ex-Baha'i or just people studying it, because of the conditioning, or closed minded programming within Baha'i itself, unless you were somehow able to drop the Baha'i programming, it would be difficult to understand anything from some other POV, such is the firmness of the indoctrination.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you're admitting that the reason for this thread was to answer questions about Baha'i, and not actually to have a discussion about explaining 'great beings'?

Of course most of us knew that all along, but it's good to hear it from you too.

Not at all. I just posted explaining that was not the case. That my purpose was to ask why these Great Beings had and continue to have such a great influence on history and civilisation.

Later the subject took on its own life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It was basicallly asking what people thought about these Great Beings as they have had such a great influence on civilization.

I have learned a lot from peoples answers especially those who have said no.

And we all proceeded to share our views with each other on Who these Great Beings were. We explored concepts like infallibility and the need or non need for these Educators. So it was always a learning for me.

As to Hinduism I fully agree only a Hindu can experience Hinduism but the truths enshrined in Hinduism anyone one the planet can learn. Truth and truths can be known to anyone with a pure heart.

Im being honest.

What have you learned (one or two points doesnt need to be all of them) about hinduism, christianity, agnosticm, deism (few here are thse faiths i believe), and buddhism that does not refect your belief: that most of the faiths share something by fact they do not share?

What have you learned about hinduism that "does not" mirror your opinion of the faith that is not true from those who practice it?

We would have had productive discussions if what non bahai says wasnt replied by a bahai view. If we ask who is bahallauh, of course you can share your faith. But we are sharing view point as supporting our debate rather than discussing from genuine interest.

Was there a page of discussion about any other faith without any bahai views?

I know all questions wont be answered but I hope you see my point and understand it without needing to defend youself.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Because Hinduism is an experiential religion with little dogma, you simply cannot learn it without experiencing it. If you deny the existence of darshan, for example, it would be inconceivable that you could believe in for others, let alone experience it for yourself.

From my discussions here and with ex-Baha'i or just people studying it, because of the conditioning, or closed minded programming within Baha'i itself, unless you were somehow able to drop the Baha'i programming, it would be difficult to understand anything from some other POV, such is the firmness of the indoctrination.

Unless I experienced Hinduism as a Hindu I could not understand it as you do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not at all. I just posted explaining that was not the case. That my purpose was to ask why these Great Beings had and continue to have such a great influence on history and civilisation.

Later the subject took on its own life.

The issue is that if we all said no, and you end the discussion the question wasnt meant to be answered by those who disagree. If you wanted some form of agreement, the question wouldnt be for debate but bahai DIR.

The thread got derailed because it was onesided. For example, i explained that The Buddha doesnt teach The Dharma will decay but the physical Dharma. I also postec suttas on his debate with god and how he disagreed with god that you say he believes 'in.' Of course your religion says otherwise but debates arent arguments. It is two sided. No need to defend you point if your religion promotes 1. Peace and 2. Unity among diversity.

Hinduism is practiced based. Yes, you can read about hinduism and intepret it through your belief. My point is if your OP was only for those who agree, what did you learn that you didnt interpret through bahai eyes but the diversity you want to make peace with?


My other post is summed up here.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not at all. I just posted explaining that was not the case. That my purpose was to ask why these Great Beings had and continue to have such a great influence on history and civilisation.

Later the subject took on its own life.

Yes, and some of us, including myself, gave you our opinions and our ideas. But that didn't satisfy anyone, so we got more Baha'i, Baha'i, Baha'i, which was fine, but certainly no debate. I do believe that was the original, purpose, because otherwise we would have had far more real discussion about topics beyond Baha'i. Unfortunately it was a one way communication.

 

[Vinayaka]

Unless I experienced Hinduism as a Hindu I could not understand it as you do.

Yes, they why would you say you could, in the first post just now. Please make up your mind.

And just what have you learned about my faith, if anything? Certainly there have been no questions. What has come up is just when I've had to put something out to demonstrate the vastly different paradigms. Although you say you want to learn, I don't believe you do. Not outside of the Baha'i teachings certainly. All that you can get from reading the Baha'i teachings from Baha'i.org. Your 'Guardian' advised everyone not to even read anything else, as it's deluded, blind, not of God, diseased, and all that. So it has to be hard, no? Sticking with Baha'i, unable to learn even enough to show tolerance?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Im being honest.

What have you learned (one or two points doesnt need to be all of them) about hinduism, christianity, agnosticm, deism (few here are thse faiths i believe), and buddhism that does not refect your belief: that most of the faiths share something by fact they do not share?

What have you learned about hinduism that "does not" mirror your opinion of the faith that is not true from those who practice it?

We would have had productive discussions if what non bahai says wasnt replied by a bahai view. If we ask who is bahallauh, of course you can share your faith. But we are sharing view point as supporting our debate rather than discussing from genuine interest.

Was there a page of discussion about any other faith without any bahai views?

I know all questions wont be answered but I hope you see my point and understand it without needing to defend youself.

With regards to Hinduism I learned that Saivism does not accept avatars or believe in the Bhagavad-Gita or Prophets but does have gurus and believes in the God Shiva. I’m of course still learning and intend to learn more as I find it very interesting and beautiful.

Christianity. I was born and raised a Catholic so I have had the full and complete experience of being a devout believer for many years and all my childhood. I took all the sacraments. Baptism, Confirmation, communion, penance and confession and did the stations of the cross and attended mass. So when we discuss these things here I am already aware of the many topics mentioned and have both knowledge and experience.

To deism my understanding is they see man as the apex of creation and that only men who use their own minds achieve things and totally reject progressive revelation or the Great Beings
and Prophets.

Agnostics simply say we cannot understand God which is true.

Buddhism. I never knew much about Buddhism until I visited Buddhist countries and married someone with family from that tradition. First I became are of its greatness in the minds of its adherents then I experienced meditation in various pagodas and lived in a Buddhist village and country for 5 years and another one for one year. I also read much of their literature. I cannot know what a Buddhist experiences as a Buddhist but I can appreciate the beautiful and wondrous teachings and truths of the Buddha.

I’ve done my best but if you need more explanation I’ll be happy to explain the best I can.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, and some of us, including myself, gave you our opinions and our ideas. But that didn't satisfy anyone, so we got more Baha'i, Baha'i, Baha'i, which was fine, but certainly no debate.

We don’t have to talk about Baha’i at all just the Great Beings.