How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

With regards to Hinduism I learned that Saivism does not accept avatars or believe in the Bhagavad-Gita or Prophets but does have gurus and believes in the God Shiva. I’m of course still learning and intend to learn more as I find it very interesting and beautiful.

And that, Sir, is about one millionth of what is in Hinduism. It is the equivalent in amount of me knowing that Baha'u'llah founded Baha'i.

 

[Vinayaka]

We don’t have to talk about Baha’i at all just the Great Beings.

I don't believe in Great Beings. That's a Baha'i belief. So you don't want to talk about Baha'i, just Baha'i beliefs? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, they why would you say you could, in the first post just now. Please make up your mind.

And just what have you learned about my faith, if anything? Certainly there have been no questions. What has come up is just when I've had to put something out to demonstrate the vastly different paradigms. Although you say you want to learn, I don't believe you do. Not outside of the Baha'i teachings certainly. All that you can get from reading the Baha'i teachings from Baha'i.org. Your 'Guardian' advised everyone not to even read anything else, as it's deluded, blind, not of God, diseased, and all that. So it has to be hard, no? Sticking with Baha'i, unable to learn even enough to show tolerance?

I don’t understand. I went to sites you linked to read and downloaded stuff and I enjoyed a lot of what I read. I’ve been researching to see and learn more truth about your beliefs. I have asked questions, many but I don’t know which posts. But they are there.

Some people not you but it’s often the case that people will search google for derogatory and negative things said about us to use against us but we don’t do that.

For instance I will google your Faith and try and find out the beauty and majesty in its truths. My aim is not hostile but amicable and friendly and my object is not to oppose but to find and learn truth from your beliefs.

Is not Sivaya Subramuniyaswami one of the leaders you follow? I have some of his books and have read some of them and really liked a lot of what I perused.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And that, Sir, is about one millionth of what is in Hinduism. It is the equivalent in amount of me knowing that Baha'u'llah founded Baha'i.

Of course! I’m the first to admit my ignorance in this matter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't believe in Great Beings. That's a Baha'i belief. So you don't want to talk about Baha'i, just Baha'i beliefs? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I called them Great Beings but to you maybe they are just gurus or ordinary people. That’s fine. But what was it that they were able and still are able to influence history and civilization so deeply?

I think it matters because the direction the world takes is being influenced greatly by Their teachings and laws. Also many of our laws of society come from Them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

With regards to Hinduism I learned that Saivism does not accept avatars or believe in the Bhagavad-Gita or Prophets but does have gurus and believes in the God Shiva. I’m of course still learning and intend to learn more as I find it very interesting and beautiful.

Christianity. I was born and raised a Catholic so I have had the full and complete experience of being a devout believer for many years and all my childhood. I took all the sacraments. Baptism, Confirmation, communion, penance and confession and did the stations of the cross and attended mass. So when we discuss these things here I am already aware of the many topics mentioned and have both knowledge and experience.

To deism my understanding is they see man as the apex of creation and that only men who use their own minds achieve things and totally reject progressive revelation or the Great Beings
and Prophets.

Agnostics simply say we cannot understand God which is true.

Buddhism. I never knew much about Buddhism until I visited Buddhist countries and married someone with family from that tradition. First I became are of its greatness in the minds of its adherents then I experienced meditation in various pagodas and lived in a Buddhist village and country for 5 years and another one for one year. I also read much of their literature. I cannot know what a Buddhist experiences as a Buddhist but I can appreciate the beautiful and wondrous teachings and truths of the Buddha.

I’ve done my best but if you need more explanation I’ll be happy to explain the best I can.

The difference in my point is did you learn most of this in the thread by asking? I didnt talk to much about my faith. The convo was cut off without what I posted addressed.

We barely asked anything about bahai because it was offered more to teach than genuine discussion about both faiths.

If we all said no and you end the discussion, what was the purpose of this thread if you only discuss with those who agree with you?

I mean I know what you wanted to talk about but when we disagreed, after awhile of bahai info it would be productive to ask why we said no right? Unless you were looking for another answer? If so, what?

Catholicm doesnt have bahaullah; so, a lot you know about it but do understand why we say X is a contradiction without comparing it to your faith?

 

[oldbadger]

You mentioned it also to me in a previous post to me and said that the topic was in another thread I think so I have no idea which thread you were referring to and asked for clarification.

No...... I mentioned an earlier post, a few pages back.

Previously I had discussed and debated with bahais that 'Bahais must keep the laws of the lands that they live in'.
You appear to agree with that.

But another member, a Bahai, in a post two pages back (!)
wrote (and I'm not formally quoting the whole post!):-
It was explained and you would know that no law can be made that is a contradiction of an overriding law.
Religious freedom is the overiding law in our lands and indeed the law of the Koran.
That this law is violated, is the resolution of the United Nations.
Consider this, when one is considering justice for those opressed by unjustly made laws.

That was easy to find........... and that post suggests that Bahais can break laws which are unfair in a religious way.
I'm not getting involved in that particular debate just now.

If you agree with that Bahai that you can break laws that you think are unfair in the lands that you live in, or if you don't, that's up to you. Discuss it between yourselves, maybe?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The difference in my point is did you learn most of this in the thread by asking? I didnt talk to much about my faith. The convo was cut off without what I posted addressed.

We barely asked anything about bahai because it was offered more to teach than genuine discussion about both faiths.

If we all said no and you end the discussion, what was the purpose of this thread if you only discuss with those who agree with you?

I mean I know what you wanted to talk about but when we disagreed, after awhile of bahai info it would be productive to ask why we said no right? Unless you were looking for another answer? If so, what?

Catholicm doesnt have bahaullah; so, a lot you know about it but do understand why we say X is a contradiction without comparing it to your faith?

I ldefinitely learned a lot of things from this forum and thread and met some wonderful people in the process. I now know some of the reasons why people didn’t agree on some points.

Some felt that it was ‘cultural appropriation’ to see all these Great Beings as one. Others gave the reason that they just don’t believe in great beings or infallibility because they feel we can learn from meditation. These Great Beings comprise both Abrahamic and Dharmic Teachers so there were views expressed against the Abrahamic Educators by those Who accepted Teachers like Buddha. Then we went into whether They all taught about God. We discussed reincarnation which some claim was taught by one or two of these Educators. We discussed whether Krishna was God or a Manifestation of God, remember that? Whether Buddha indirectly referred to God.

Questions were raised about what the correct sources of our information should come from. Christ? The Bible? Christians?

We agreed that one can only truly experience a religion from the inside but maintained that truth is in all religions and we can all learn from every Educator. We discussed ahimsa and Ghandi and Swami Vivekananda.

We spoke about unity in diversity, world peace, unity of religion and the fors and againsts. How deeds and service are more important than words only.

Educators are not only important but aren’t they essential? So as they have influenced and continue to influence our entire planet then shouldn’t we try and find out Who they really are and where They actually originated from?

If they are just normal beings then we can easily repeat their feats. Surely if it was because They had charisma we too can proclaim a Cause which future kings and queens will bow down before, centuries from now? Or write a Quran which billions will follow or be honored with thousands of temples churches and pagodas.

Theses Great Beings are as involved in our human history as the air we each breath so can we really just ignore them when our lives and future and world are being mounded after their laws and teachings?

 

[oldbadger]

I don't believe in Great Beings. .....................

Snap.
Moses was a great leader. But Human.
David was a great king. But Human.
Yeshua and the Baptist were great revolutionaries. But Human.
Muhammad was a great warrior and leader. But Human.
Bahauallah was ............a great writer?..... or so it seems to me. But Human.
And all were humanly imperfect, imo.

I mean, if we are to talk about imperfect humans as Great Beings then I wish to propose the Medway Longshoreman 'old Joe Puttifer' who could train his dogs to salvage drifting dinghies and other flotsam, and sail his beautiful old yawl around the Thames Estuary single handed. Truly a Great Being, was old Joe.

Or the Mersea Longshoreman Ted Milgate. Ted could drink ten pints of beer in an evening at the Victory Pub, and because he told old tales to tourists he was smart enough that he never paid for one of 'em. Truly a Great Being, was Ted.

Or Johnny Oliver, born with no arms, clubbed feet, and what we once called spastic, but who ran the tug boat Hobbit with two dogs as crew, hauling barges from Rochester to Harwich and such places. I never did see anybody as wonderful as him. Truly a Great Being.

And may their Gods be with them all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you agree with that Bahai that you can break laws that you think are unfair in the lands that you live in, or if you don't, that's up to you. Discuss it between yourselves, maybe?

That is no near where near the meaning of what was said and intended.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

That is no near where near the meaning of what was said and intended.

Regards Tony

Excellent! Great News!
And so you are prepared to write down and confirm that all Bahais everywhere are required by Bahai to obey the laws of the lands that they live in.
Yes/No?

Come on...... give me an answer ...........

 

[loverofhumanity]

No...... I mentioned an earlier post, a few pages back.

Previously I had discussed and debated with bahais that 'Bahais must keep the laws of the lands that they live in'.
You appear to agree with that.

But another member, a Bahai, in a post two pages back (!)
wrote (and I'm not formally quoting the whole post!):-
It was explained and you would know that no law can be made that is a contradiction of an overriding law.
Religious freedom is the overiding law in our lands and indeed the law of the Koran.
That this law is violated, is the resolution of the United Nations.
Consider this, when one is considering justice for those opressed by unjustly made laws.

That was easy to find........... and that post suggests that Bahais can break laws which are unfair in a religious way.
I'm not getting involved in that particular debate just now.

If you agree with that Bahai that you can break laws that you think are unfair in the lands that you live in, or if you don't, that's up to you. Discuss it between yourselves, maybe?

We must obey our government under all circumstances unless they want us to deny our Faith. Then we are prepared to face torture, imprisonment and death.

“In every country where any of this people reside, they must behave towards the government of that country with loyalty, honesty and truthfulness.

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[loverofhumanity]

Excellent! Great News!
And so you are prepared to write down and confirm that all Bahais everywhere are required by Bahai to obey the laws of the lands that they live in.
Yes/No?

Come on...... give me an answer ...........

There is plenty of guidance on this topic.

1453. Shun Politics Like the Plague and be Obedient to the Government in Power
"The cardinal principle which we must follow, (in connection with your questions), is obedience to the Government prevailing in any land in which we reside. We cannot, because, say, we do not personally like a totalitarian form of government, refuse to obey it when it becomes the ruling power. Nor can we join underground Movements which are a minority agitating against the prevailing government.

"If a state of Revolution and complete chaos exists in a Country, so that it is impossible to say there is one government in power, then the friends must consult with their National or their Local Assembly, and be guided by what the Assembly considers the proper action to take; in other words which party might be best considered the legal governing authority.

"We see, therefore, that we must do two things—shun politics like the plague, and be obedient to the Government in power in the place where we reside. We cannot start judging how a particular government came into power, and therefore whether we should obey it or not. This would immediately plunge us into politics. We must obey in all cases except where a spiritual principle is involved, such as denying our Faith. For these spiritual principles we must be willing to die. What we Bahá’ís must face is the fact that society is rapidly disintegrating—so rapidly that moral issues which were clear half a century ago are now hopelessly confused, and what is more, thoroughly mixed up with battling political interests. That is why the Bahá’ís must turn all their forces into the channel of building up the Bahá’í Cause and its administration. They can neither change nor help the world in any other way at present. If they become involved in the issues the Governments of the world are struggling over, they will be lost. But if they build up the Bahá’í pattern they can offer it as a remedy when all else has failed."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 21, 1948)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Excellent! Great News!
And so you are prepared to write down and confirm that all Bahais everywhere are required by Bahai to obey the laws of the lands that they live in.
Yes/No?

Come on...... give me an answer ...........

"Let them proclaim that in whatever country they reside, and however advanced their institutions, or profound their desire to enforce the laws, and apply the principles, enunciated by Baha'u'llah, they will, unhesitatingly, subordinate the operation of such laws and the application of such principles to the requirements and legal enactments of their respective governments. Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries." (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, pp. 65-6)

Iranian Government Attempts to Erase the Baha’is from Society-Even After Death

IRAN

Article 23 of the Iranian constitution holds that “the investigation of individuals’ beliefs is forbidden, and no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief.”

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

We must obey our government under all circumstances unless they want us to deny our Faith. Then we are prepared to face torture, imprisonment and death.

“In every country where any of this people reside, they must behave towards the government of that country with loyalty, honesty and truthfulness.

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh
Bahá’u’lláh

There aren't any unlesses...... Bahais must obey their countries' laws.
That or change country, I suppose.
Done. Sorted.

 

[oldbadger]

There is plenty of guidance on this topic.

1453. Shun Politics Like the Plague and be Obedient to the Government in Power
"The cardinal principle which we must follow, (in connection with your questions), is obedience to the Government prevailing in any land in which we reside. We cannot, because, say, we do not personally like a totalitarian form of government, refuse to obey it when it becomes the ruling power. Nor can we join underground Movements which are a minority agitating against the prevailing government.

"If a state of Revolution and complete chaos exists in a Country, so that it is impossible to say there is one government in power, then the friends must consult with their National or their Local Assembly, and be guided by what the Assembly considers the proper action to take; in other words which party might be best considered the legal governing authority.

"We see, therefore, that we must do two things—shun politics like the plague, and be obedient to the Government in power in the place where we reside. We cannot start judging how a particular government came into power, and therefore whether we should obey it or not. This would immediately plunge us into politics. We must obey in all cases except where a spiritual principle is involved, such as denying our Faith. For these spiritual principles we must be willing to die. What we Bahá’ís must face is the fact that society is rapidly disintegrating—so rapidly that moral issues which were clear half a century ago are now hopelessly confused, and what is more, thoroughly mixed up with battling political interests. That is why the Bahá’ís must turn all their forces into the channel of building up the Bahá’í Cause and its administration. They can neither change nor help the world in any other way at present. If they become involved in the issues the Governments of the world are struggling over, they will be lost. But if they build up the Bahá’í pattern they can offer it as a remedy when all else has failed."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 21, 1948)

OK....... you've quoted a letter written by an unknown for Shogi Effendi. I suppose he might have signed it.
YOu have already quoted Bahauallah who is your leader.
That's what I'll focus upon.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There aren't any unlesses...... Bahais must obey their countries' laws.
That or change country, I suppose.
Done. Sorted.

Baha’is are not bound by Baha’i law to obey any government’s directive to recant or deny our Faith. That is a God given right.

Even the Iranian government I don’t think has a law against being a Bahá’í. They always go to the UN claiming that there is complete religious freedom in Iran yet many Baha’is are imprisoned for their beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

OK....... you've quoted a letter written by an unknown for Shogi Effendi. I suppose he might have signed it.
YOu have already quoted Bahauallah who is your leader.
That's what I'll focus upon.

Why are Baha’is in Iran arrested and imprisoned if there is no law in the Iranian constitution against being a Baha’i?

What law have Baha’is broken to be thrown into jail, had their businesses closed, tortured and murdered? What crimes have we committed under Iranian law? I would be interested in seeing the actual charges and evidence of breaches of the law.

 

[oldbadger]

"Let them proclaim that in whatever country they reside, and however advanced their institutions, or profound their desire to enforce the laws, and apply the principles, enunciated by Baha'u'llah, they will, unhesitatingly, subordinate the operation of such laws and the application of such principles to the requirements and legal enactments of their respective governments. Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries." (The World Order of Baha'u'llah, pp. 65-6)

Iranian Government Attempts to Erase the Baha’is from Society-Even After Death

IRAN

Article 23 of the Iranian constitution holds that “the investigation of individuals’ beliefs is forbidden, and no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief.”

Regards Tony

You didn't answer the question.
Bahais obey their countries' laws..... yes or no?

If you want to debate what's happening in Iran or elsewhere, then you need to veer away from 'veiled meanings' and 'hidden words' in flowery paragraphs and come stand on the line, saying exactly what you mean.

If we are to debate what's happening in Iran then we need some facts. That is 'facts'.

We need to know how many Bahais live in Iran.
We need to know facts such as 'How many executions take place in Iran each month and how many Bahais have been executed in the last month, or year, or decade........ take your pick.
We need to know why any Bahais have been arrested, how many of those were actually convicted, any sentences handed out, and what crimes the convicts were charged with.

We need facts. In my country we think Iran is a very severe kind of government, ruled on two strata both civil and religious. We understand that the President does not have full say in what happens. At this time a UK/Iranian dual national is in prison convicted of an espionage crime and we hope that our Foreign secretary can somehow obtain her release. So we know that folks in Iran need to keep Iranian laws exactly, and that visitors need to be extremely careful while there. Let's take it from there.

And you don't appear to know any facts.
Now if I'm wrong don't tell me I'm wrong...... just write down some facts.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha’is are not bound by Baha’i law to obey any government’s directive to recant or deny our Faith. That is a God given right.

Even the Iranian government I don’t think has a law against being a Bahá’í. They always go to the UN claiming that there is complete religious freedom in Iran yet many Baha’is are imprisoned for their beliefs.

I can't debate in two directions. But I'll try..............
If Bahais have been arrested, charged, tried and convicted because they had a belief, and nothing else, please source the trials for me to see. If you can find any Budhists, Christians, Zoorasters, Hindus, JWs, Mormons, Deists, Atheists etc who were arrested for beliefs then post 'em up.

Don't quote a trial at me where a Bahai was charged with 'doing something'........ you need to quote a trial where a Bahai was arrested for doing 'nothing but believing'.

And while you're about it, and if you want to enter this part of the debate, you can do your best to give some other figures, as asked of the other member.

Here..... I'll copy them for you:-
We need to know how many Bahais live in Iran.
We need to know facts such as 'How many executions take place in Iran each month and how many Bahais have been executed in the last month, or year, or decade........ take your pick.
We need to know why any Bahais have been arrested, how many of those were actually convicted, any sentences handed out, and what crimes the convicts were charged with.

See how easy I make it for you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you don't appear to know any facts.
Now if I'm wrong don't tell me I'm wrong...... just write down some facts.

No I will leave this alone after this quick post. I have l Already posted ample information to all that explains the true situation in Iran.

Many are arrested without charges or reasons.

Five Iranian Baha’is Arrested in Isfahan Without Warrant on Unknown Charges

The whole reason is that they are Baha'is and I have already posted this is against the constitution.

These douments have been posted on line for all to see.

See you OB, I will finish there.

Stay well and happy and may all be good for you. Regards Tony