How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita I’m happy to delve deep into any question but one at a time as I find it ridicule to focus on multi question posts. So I will ask if we can address each question or issue fully rather than try and cover too much ground at once.

One of the things I learned from this forum and definitely adjusted was my understanding and belief as a Bahá’í in Hinduism.

The Hinduism that I belive in is the one which accepts that God sends Avatars to the earth to renew religion and we accept Krishna as one of them and the Bhagavad-Gita As His Holy Book.

My understanding is hinduism does not teach abrahamic god is the same as hindu god. Its bahai belief but why call it hinduism? Its more than the name. Its like calling myself Catholic all because I took the sacraments and only understand god by sacrament. But Im not catholic. I have to Practice to use that word. In my opinion, Im disrespecting the church if I did that thereby their god.

My question was unless you wanted to speak with those who agree with you, why end the discussion if we all said no?

 

[oldbadger]

If you’ve read any of the messages of the Universal House of Justice over the last decade or two you will find often mention of sorrow for all Iranians not just Baha’is.

I would expect nothing less.

What I might prefer to see is a strict instruction to be followed in countries like Iran.
The UHJ does issue very strict instructions to Baha'is, even banning unregulated entry to high risk lands.

 

[Vinayaka]

You were saying that people who were influenced by these Great Teachers were gullible and I said that I believed that that was not the case and that the reason they were attracted to those Educators was because they were pure hearted. You may be pure hearted as well, it’s not for me to judge.

In my view, they aren't great teachers at all. There are lots of teachers who dupe people into doing stuff that is actually just selfish. Those kinds of 'teachers' have been a round for a very long time. It is up to the individuals to discern if they're valuable or not. I believe the last three in the Baha'i 9 existed as people on this planet, but before that I'm not even convinced they existed. In the end, you have to judge the teachers by their adherents. With the Christian crusades and Islamic fundamentalism, it's pretty obvious to me that they taught himsa or in the very least left it open to being possible. In the Baha'i case, we still don't know, as Baha'i s have never been in a position of power. But by the way the UHJ reacts to any criticism, it's pretty clear to me that power has gone to their head. Certainly limiting the length of time they could serve would help that. But that won't change, will it? So you have this 'old boys club' just like in many corporations, other churches, or governments that rule with 'manly' stances to maintain the status quo. It's sad, and it's not about to change any time soon.

What is pure-hearted about killing in the name of your religion? If that's pure-hearted, I'd hate to see a mean person go about his ways.

 

[oldbadger]

In my view, they aren't great teachers at all. There are lots of teachers who dupe people into doing stuff that is actually just selfish. Those kinds of 'teachers' have been a round for a very long time. It is up to the individuals to discern if they're valuable or not. I believe the last three in the Baha'i 9 existed as people on this planet, but before that I'm not even convinced they existed. In the end, you have to judge the teachers by their adherents. With the Christian crusades and Islamic fundamentalism, it's pretty obvious to me that they taught himsa or in the very least left it open to being possible. In the Baha'i case, we still don't know, as Baha'i s have never been in a position of power. But by the way the UHJ reacts to any criticism, it's pretty clear to me that power has gone to their head. Certainly limiting the length of time they could serve would help that. But that won't change, will it? So you have this 'old boys club' just like in many corporations, other churches, or governments that rule with 'manly' stances to maintain the status quo. It's sad, and it's not about to change any time soon.

What is pure-hearted about killing in the name of your religion? If that's pure-hearted, I'd hate to see a mean person go about his ways.

...Pure Hearted......
Years ago Bahais used to say that if you become a Bahai then you are pure and obviously your parents must be pure, thus they will be gaining entry to heaven as well.

A kind of easy version of the Islamic Hafiz and parents.

Some Bahais do seem to have an indoctrinated deep seated imprinted mindset whereby they are not only right but holy, whereas folks who have heard about Bahai and not listened or believed must be crank in some ways.

The prejudice can reach to full on bigotry, but then so can some Muslims, Jews and Christians. The Brethren will not even take food/drink with outsiders.

 

[Vinayaka]

...Pure Hearted......
Years ago Bahais used to say that if you become a Bahai then you are pure and obviously your parents must be pure, thus they will be gaining entry to heaven as well.

A kind of easy version of the Islamic Hafiz and parents.

Some Bahais do seem to have an indoctrinated deep seated imprinted mindset whereby they are not only right but holy, whereas folks who have heard about Bahai and not listened or believed must be crank in some ways.

The prejudice can reach to full on bigotry, but then so can some Muslims, Jews and Christians. The Brethren will not even take food/drink with outsiders.

I think what bothers me the most is the secrecy about any faults, and the deception about them. You can find pages and pages about the focus on gender equality, and it never once mentions the gender in the UHJ. People join up not having any idea of the inner workings. So it's deception, with the primary focus being proselytizing. So many ex-Baha'i feel they were duped and have left. So all the NSA's around the world only focus on the good stuff, not even acknowledging officially anything bad. It leads to a very false sense of positivity, and anyone who encounters it has no chance whatsoever of making changes from the inside. So they leave. Some slam the door on the way out, and others just slink off to better pastures. Meanwhile, the official party stance is to deny this even happens. So it's quite dysfunctional, and no way to fix it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your report was made by a Bahai, I notice.. .............. Simin Fahandej, the faith’s spokesperson ...........confirmed .............

If you cannot answer straight questions and seek out strong facts then, 'yes', it would be best if you would leave it...... right there.

There are many examples in History as to how Justice groans at its plight. To which this conversation reflects, with the constant demand of facts from the source of the persection.

I will use the strongest example.

Consider the plight of the Jews when Germany decided they had to go.

You would be saying, lets not listen to any thing they say, they are Jews and can not be trusted. Matters not that Truth is all they would give, we have to have the persecutors side of the story. Matters not that many support what the Jews are saying, they have to show us facts from German sources that they have any credibility. When a document or two are presented, still not enough, need more evidence from the persecutors.

Yes lets ask the Persons responsible for that persecution as to the facts of the charges laid against them, I am sure we will get the most honest and clear picture as to the justification for such an obvious cleansing of a religious minority.

The World has already spoken on this, they have judged in the world court and supported the Baha'i and their stories. Yet we are still asked to provide proof from the side of the persecutors.

I do not run away from the injustice, I long to stand in front of them that persecute and show they will never eradicate true justice, nor Baha'i, nor the need for One planet one people please.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I think what bothers me the most is the secrecy about any faults, and the deception about them. You can find pages and pages about the focus on gender equality, and it never once mentions the gender in the UHJ. People join up not having any idea of the inner workings. So it's deception, with the primary focus being proselytizing. So many ex-Baha'i feel they were duped and have left. So all the NSA's around the world only focus on the good stuff, not even acknowledging officially anything bad. It leads to a very false sense of positivity, and anyone who encounters it has no chance whatsoever of making changes from the inside. So they leave. Some slam the door on the way out, and others just slink off to better pastures. Meanwhile, the official party stance is to deny this even happens. So it's quite dysfunctional, and no way to fix it.

Yep.....
I noticed that men are instructed to handle treasure trove finds, and there may be other 'men only' functions. In a Bahai World Policing and Defence forces would probably be run and served by males, because I'm sure that it is written that women will be focusing upon motherhood etc

I notice that where any investigation discoveries might be 'not-so-good' for Bahai that some Bahais will fall out of the search.

You're not the Jehovah Witnesses most ardent admirer, I seem to remember........ ( ) but I have found that the UK followers:-
Mostly hold part-time jobs so that they can serve in JW building and services programs.
Mostly specialise in Trades so that they can be more flexible with working hours.
Never, ever, any of them, fixate upon material possessions, nor show any pride in their property of any kind.
Never ever back away from answering questions on-the-spot and for better-or-worse.
Stick to one translation of bible and know it backwards.
Would never show aggression or prejudice to even the most determined attacks on their faith.
Their integrity is very very high.

I know you don't like their door-knocking etc but if only some JWs would introduce themselves here and communicate you would sure see a big difference in the way that they introdruce their potential theocracy and gender roles.

 

[Vinayaka]

The World has already spoken on this, they have judged in the world court and supported the Baha'i and their stories. Yet we are still asked to provide proof from the side of the persecutors.

I do not run away from the injustice, I long to stand in front of them that persecute and show they will never eradicate true justice, nor Baha'i, nor the need for One planet one people please.

Regards Tony

In Iran it's any non-Muslim. Christians, Jews, Parsees, also are persecuted. This article, in fact, lists Baha'is as fourth in line.

Minority Religious Groups Suffer in Iran

It's wrong. Fingers should be pointed at the perpetrators, not just all non-Baha'i.

 

[oldbadger]

There are many examples in History as to how Justice groans at its plight. To which this conversation reflects, with the constant demand of facts from the source of the persection.

I thought you had exited this particular discussion?

I will use the strongest example.

Consider the plight of the Jews when Germany decided they had to go.

I'm considering.....................

You would be saying,

Stop right there...............
You keep your bigotries away from me.
Don't you dare to tell me how I would think in any particular situation.
Now lets start again................ and you can put all this again as a question without your very prejudiced opinionated views about what you think about me.

I have a very grreat deal to say about the Haulocaust....... just ask with grace.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yep.....

You're not the Jehovah Witnesses most ardent admirer, I seem to remember........ ( ) but I have found that the UK followers:-
Mostly hold part-time jobs so that they can serve in JW building and services programs.
Mostly specialise in Trades so that they can be more flexible with working hours.
Never, ever, any of them, fixate upon material possessions, nor show any pride in their property of any kind.
Never ever back away from answering questions on-the-spot and for better-or-worse.
Stick to one translation of bible and know it backwards.
Would never show aggression or prejudice to even the most determined attacks on their faith.
Their integrity is very very high.

I know you don't like their door-knocking etc but if only some JWs would introduce themselves here and communicate you would sure see a big difference in the way that they introdruce their potential theocracy and gender roles.

One big difference I've noticed is the approach to other religions. JWs and others have their own philosophies, and will argue all day how the other ones except theirs are all wrong. Their disagreement is right out there for all to see. There is no sneakiness. Here I am, take it or leave it.

The Baha'i, on the other had pretend they don't disagree with other world views, and actually try to incorporate them into the Baha'i teachings, but in so doing, alter them to suit their agenda, thus insulting them by changing them. So if i were to learn Buddhism from the twe sources, JW would most likely be far more accurate. Hateful, but accurate. Of course I actually wouldn't do that, I'd go to a Buddhist.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In my view, they aren't great teachers at all. There are lots of teachers who dupe people into doing stuff that is actually just selfish. Those kinds of 'teachers' have been a round for a very long time. It is up to the individuals to discern if they're valuable or not. I believe the last three in the Baha'i 9 existed as people on this planet, but before that I'm not even convinced they existed. In the end, you have to judge the teachers by their adherents. With the Christian crusades and Islamic fundamentalism, it's pretty obvious to me that they taught himsa or in the very least left it open to being possible. In the Baha'i case, we still don't know, as Baha'i s have never been in a position of power. But by the way the UHJ reacts to any criticism, it's pretty clear to me that power has gone to their head. Certainly limiting the length of time they could serve would help that. But that won't change, will it? So you have this 'old boys club' just like in many corporations, other churches, or governments that rule with 'manly' stances to maintain the status quo. It's sad, and it's not about to change any time soon.

What is pure-hearted about killing in the name of your religion? If that's pure-hearted, I'd hate to see a mean person go about his ways.

By pure hearted person it’s common sense that I’m meaning good people who only want love and peace as did those Educators. One of the reasons why religion is renewed from time to time is precisely because politics and man made dogmas eventually water down the original teachings and the religion becomes spiritually only a shell of its former self not really giving enough spiritual guidance for the new age.

This is the very first time in human history where a Prophet has appeared claiming to have a Divine Order but it was over 2,000 years ago that Christ promised the Kingdom of God would come to the earth. By that we understand a spiritual civilization based on God’s spiritual laws not man’s political and economical laws.

So an order with things like virtues of justice, love, unity and a human rights would reign instead of corruption and greed. This has not yet been tested yet universally but so far we are not experiencing the corruption inherent in current day politics and Baha’is willingly serve and obey the Universal House of Justice out of love and devotion as they see it as the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I would expect nothing less.

What I might prefer to see is a strict instruction to be followed in countries like Iran.
The UHJ does issue very strict instructions to Baha'is, even banning unregulated entry to high risk lands.

I e also see letters from our National Assembly appealing to Bahais not to go back to Iran but they cannot stop them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My understanding is hinduism does not teach abrahamic god is the same as hindu god. Its bahai belief but why call it hinduism? Its more than the name. Its like calling myself Catholic all because I took the sacraments and only understand god by sacrament. But Im not catholic. I have to Practice to use that word. In my opinion, Im disrespecting the church if I did that thereby their god.

My question was unless you wanted to speak with those who agree with you, why end the discussion if we all said no?

I don’t want to end discussion as I really enjoy it here and I learn from you all but I got the impression you weren’t wanting to discuss anymore. But I’m more than happy to keep talking about anything not just Bahá’í.

I think Hindus believe in God as the Ultimate Reality but that aGod like Siva is a God of love. I did read that somewhere recently in a Hindu publication.

 

[oldbadger]

In Iran it's any non-Muslim. Christians, Jews, Parsees, also are persecuted. This article, in fact, lists Baha'is as fourth in line.

Minority Religious Groups Suffer in Iran

It's wrong. Fingers should be pointed at the perpetrators, not just all non-Baha'i.

I have never ever heard any Bahai make mention of any other group having difficulties in Iran or elsewhere.

One member wanted to 'tell me' what I would say about the Haulocaust but I'll bet that same member could never guess what I would say, nor how many groups I would mention.

I read no further than that, but I wonder if he wanted to somehow reverse Bahai persecution into Haulocaust persecution? I may find out.

 

[oldbadger]

One big difference I've noticed is the approach to other religions. JWs and others have their own philosophies, and will argue all day how the other ones except theirs are all wrong. Their disagreement is right out there for all to see. There is no sneakiness. Here I am, take it or leave it.

Certainly absolutely full-on correct.

The Baha'i, on the other had pretend they don't disagree with other world views, and actually try to incorporate them into the Baha'i teachings, but in so doing, alter them to suit their agenda, thus insulting them by changing them. So if i were to learn Buddhism from the twe sources, JW would most likely be far more accurate. Hateful, but accurate. Of course I actually wouldn't do that, I'd go to a Buddhist.

I believe that, absolutely.
My JW visitor of 2 decades +, if asked about any belief or group that he 'knows' is wrong, will pause, say something like a long 'Yesss', and then ask a question such as 'Do you think that..........' whatever.
But he would never fain agreement, or attempt to reverse his faith into another.

I feel sad when Bahais write of how much they feel close to Christians, and even quote verses to show their allegiance, when they will go away and refuse to answer with agree or disagree to, say, Romans 1-6 which is the foundation of the Christian Creed really...... Son of God Trinity + resurrection.

 

[oldbadger]

I e also see letters from our National Assembly appealing to Bahais not to go back to Iran but they cannot stop them.

Then your NSA and all others might instruct all Bahais that Irananian law must be kept to the letter, no proselytising at all and no meetings beyond numbers that are allowed, and no messaging via IT, Radio, Mobile or Sat comms.

Iran is a Shia-Muslim country which believes that Babism, it's fore-runner and Bahai are not only Apostatic religions but a seriously treacherous organisation intent on the overthrow of Islam.

They are not happy with any other religion than Shia-Islam. I wouldn't advise a Jew, a Sunni or a Mormon to go sightseeing there.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Stop right there...............
You keep your bigotries away from me.
Don't you dare to tell me how I would think in any particular situation.
Now lets start again................ and you can put all this again as a question without your very prejudiced opinionated views about what you think about me.

I have a very grreat deal to say about the Haulocaust....... just ask with grace.

Sorry usually do not refer to the person as it is the comment that is being addressed. I missed that I had put You, instead it was the thought that was being scrutinized, not the person.

So reposted;

There are many examples in History as to how Justice groans at its plight. To which this conversation reflects, with the constant demand of facts from the source of the persection.

I will use the strongest example.

Consider the plight of the Jews when Germany decided they had to go.

We would be saying, lets not listen to any thing they say, they are Jews and can not be trusted. Matters not that Truth is all they would give, we have to have the persecutors side of the story. Matters not that many support what the Jews are saying, they have to show us facts from German sources that they have any credibility. When a document or two are presented, still not enough, need more evidence from the persecutors.

Yes lets ask the Persons responsible for that persecution as to the facts of the charges laid against them, are we sure we will get the most honest and clear picture as to the justification for such an obvious cleansing of a religious minority.

The World has already spoken on this, they have judged in the world court and supported the Baha'i and their stories. Yet we are still asked to provide proof from the side of the persecutors.

Personally I do not run away from the injustice, I long to stand in front of them that persecute and show they will never eradicate true justice, nor Baha'i, nor the need for One planet one people please.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don’t want to end discussion as I really enjoy it here and I learn from you all but I got the impression you Gus weren’t wanting to discuss anymore. But I’m more than happy to keep talking about anything not just Bahá’í.

I do want to discuss but after awhile, to know more about Bahai than books and websites, I'd have to go to your place of worship. I'm not a scholar, so I pretty much know the basics. I did wanted to go more into why you'd think The Dharma would decay. Unless the suttas contradict themselves and/or you're not familiar with The Dharma itself (not the suttas), I wouldn't see how it would.

There were a couple of other topics but I know you are conversing with other people. After awhile, I forget I even asked any questions.

I think Hindus believe in God as the Ultimate Reality but that a God like Siva is a God of love. I did read that somewhere recently in a Hindu publication.

One sect of Hinduism, probably so. Remember, they are not all the same in theology.

Let me ask, how do you relate the god of abraham to Brahma and Brahman?

I know this sounds off, but that's online tone of voice. What do you know personally of Brahma and Brahman that would let you know they are the same as the god of abraham (beyond traits such as love and generosity)?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Then your NSA and all others might instruct all Bahais that Irananian law must be kept to the letter, no proselytising at all and no meetings beyond numbers that are allowed, and no messaging via IT, Radio, Mobile or Sat comms.

Iran is a Shia-Muslim country which believes that Babism, it's fore-runner and Bahai are not only Apostatic religions but a seriously treacherous organisation intent on the overthrow of Islam.

They are not happy with any other religion than Shia-Islam. I wouldn't advise a Jew, a Sunni or a Mormon to go sightseeing there.

It doesn’t matter how obedient the Baha’is are to the government, like the Jews they are targeted for elimination.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Iran is a Shia-Muslim country which believes that Babism, it's fore-runner and Bahai are not only Apostatic religions

There is no law in Iran as to Apostatic religions. I posted above article 23 of the Constitution. “The investigation of individuals' beliefs is forbidden, and no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief” (Article 23).

"There is no official law against apostasy in Iran, but with the integration of the Revolutionary Courts with the national court system, the religious courts, using the religious writings of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, have applied the death sentence to cases of apostasy (HRW Sep 1997, p. 15, 29)

Weird thing is they think by wiping out the Baha'i their rule is safe, but it is the opposite, if they allowed Baha'i its God Given freedom, then they would have assured their reign.

It will change and I pray it is their hearts that do so.

Regards Tony