How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

It does say the monastics will practice less but as a whole unless we become extinct, The Dharma will be practi




LOL internet troll?

I've heard of troll before.

Never did liked the word. You have sooo many people from other countries, some people who don't speak English well, and others who actually have serious concerns with their faith and probably don't have a person to express their anger/concerns to.

A lot of assumptions. I didn't know some people on this thread have a bit of trouble with English and understanding English context of our questions and answers.

So,

What I love about RF is that people from all round the world from all faiths (or differing world views) can explore so many interesting topics. Its an opportunity that didn't exist 25 years ago for many of us and here we are.

We have the intermingling of different people throughout the world on an unprecedented scale.

Last month I finally attended my first Dunedin interfaith council meeting as a Baha'i representative. It was wonderful.

Unfortunately there is a lot of trolling that goes on in internet discussions groups. Online harassment, sowing seeds of discord, starting quarrels or upsetting people, posting inflammatory comments, provoking emotional responses...all motivated by a perverse amusement of the one trolling.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Many Baha'is, when they leave Iran, also leave Baha'i. They see a whole new open world beyond Islam and baha'i, and go 'Wow! Just wow!"

I know first hand of many Baha'is from Iran and what you have said is not reflected in what I know and have experienced.

I know of One Faimily that chose that path, it did amaze me as they appeared very committed. Materialisim is a big trap and no one is exempt from its influence.

Please post a link to your source so it can be scrutinised.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Last month I finally attended my first Dunedin interfaith council meeting as a Baha'i representative. It was wonderful

How was it? Did you get to speak on Bahai faith and peace concerns?

 

[Dawnofhope]

How was it? Did you get to speak on Bahai faith and peace concerns?

The ways its set up is that we meet once a month and take it in turns to meet at each others premises. In that way we get to learn about each others faiths and get to know each other. For over 20 years the interfaith group here has hosted annual prayers for world peace.

The meeting I attended was the end of year function, so a social get together rather than anything formal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One big difference I've noticed is the approach to other religions. JWs and others have their own philosophies, and will argue all day how the other ones except theirs are all wrong. Their disagreement is right out there for all to see. There is no sneakiness. Here I am, take it or leave it.

The Baha'i, on the other had pretend they don't disagree with other world views, and actually try to incorporate them into the Baha'i teachings, but in so doing, alter them to suit their agenda, thus insulting them by changing them. So if i were to learn Buddhism from the twe sources, JW would most likely be far more accurate. Hateful, but accurate. Of course I actually wouldn't do that, I'd go to a Buddhist.

This ties into this post so I will respond.

Firstly JW are a great example of a strong and Loving Faith. All they do is for the Love of God. As the Love is not weak, then their Justice is given in Strong Love. I have a very good friend here and we chat often.

As to the rest of what you have said. This is the Baha'i view of the Great Beings, that One and All of them are teaching us of our One God. It is their Views and Goals that we must look to and not how man has made them conform to mans goals and desires.

Considering that it has always been offered, in the Baha'i view, that in every Word and passage given by a Great Being, we will find a complementry passage by another Great Being, thus demonstrating One Source and that Source is the motivation for all our Faiths and all the good we may choose to do, I would ask you to post one comment that was a deception of this. One post that is a deception of that well stated view held by a Baha'i.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

LOL internet troll?


So,

OB and I are the 'trolls', Carlita. One of the strategies to argue against people who disagree with you is to call them a troll. Then you get people telling each other, "I'm not the troll. You're the troll!" It's funny, yes.

Adrian is right, though, my stance here has changed. I used to be more diplomatic with the debating, but after awhile when nothing really gives, a certain amount of frustration sets in. I used to refrain more from saying stuff that was downright insulting, just because I knew it was insulting, if nothing else. But that stuff is out there on the internet about Baha'i, and when you read both sides, eventually you come to distrust both sides. Each one, just like the 'trolling' accusations, legitimately wonders where the other side is getting their information. We do know, just from the links and quotes given, that the Baha'i get most, if not all of their stuff, from official Baha'i newsletters and information. But there's always another side, so who knows, really? Some folks like to deny that there even is another side. So ultimately, I know nothing, and can only read a lot of stuff, and come to some king of educated guess.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Absolutely wrong, it seems!
I didn't know it until last night, but when I had a quick research into the Jews in Iran I discovered that they are left alone to live their lives on one special condition, that they do not voice any opinion at all about the country of Israel.

I read an account by one Jew who stated that living in Iran is safer than living in France.

Where do you get your info from, investigation of truth or just whatever you fancy?

I made a grammatical error. I meant like in the past as when Hitler was alive. They had a target pained on their backs then no matter how innocent they were. That is what I really meant to say. Sorry for not making it clear. My wrong.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are many conceptions of God in Hinduism. God can be anything to anyone, even not God at all. There are plenty of Hindu atheists, one on this forum. In my sampradaya, God has 3 perfections, interrelated but somewhat different too. We don't limit God to 'this' or that'. Besides our own conceptions, we also understand the right of anyone to have further variations. We're tolerant. Whatever works for you is fine.

I believe that God is not ‘this’ or ‘that’ or anything I can imagine. That which I can imagine is not God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

OB and I are the 'trolls', Carlita. One of the strategies to argue against people who disagree with you is to call them a troll. Then you get people telling each other, "I'm not the troll. You're the troll!" It's funny, yes.

Adrian is right, though, my stance here has changed. I used to be more diplomatic with the debating, but after awhile when nothing really gives, a certain amount of frustration sets in. I used to refrain more from saying stuff that was downright insulting, just because I knew it was insulting, if nothing else. But that stuff is out there on the internet about Baha'i, and when you read both sides, eventually you come to distrust both sides. Each one, just like the 'trolling' accusations, legitimately wonders where the other side is getting their information. We do know, just from the links and quotes given, that the Baha'i get most, if not all of their stuff, from official Baha'i newsletters and information. But there's always another side, so who knows, really? Some folks like to deny that there even is another side. So ultimately, I know nothing, and can only read a lot of stuff, and come to some king of educated guess.

In the end each has to decide the motive of posting the reply we chose to contribute. Then we can examine that motive against the meaning of troll and see if it is applicable. I see no one here as a troll, I see thoughts offered that were not conducive to finding further truth upon a given subject, from all of us at certain times.

I was discussing this with my wife, she see things like this as very white and black. God bless her.

I was pondering what it is to have a Debate Forum and then have many use the accusation of proselytize. The purpose of dedating being as this Internet post would suggest;

"It's best not to think of debates as competitions where your goal is to triumph over your opponent, but rather as ways of learning, gaining new perspectives and finding truth, in which you parttake jointly with other people. If you think this way, you will get much more out of a debate, because you remain open to the possibility that you might be wrong, and thus that you can learn something"

All the while a point of view is given as one holds it as a core value of their own position. Then there is this Great Beings thread, where within it is offered their Word are the Source of our Truths.

Then I thought if that is so and a person submits a passage from the Great Beings as part of the arguement, then logically no other passage from any other Great Being will show it to be wrong, but could open up the true purpose of debate between our understanding of those passages.

This is refected in previous discussions on reincarnation, where in one side it is held as a great spiritual reality and on the other that the way reincarnation is currently considered is not correct. What do other founders say on this concept, is it written in another way?

There are so many concepts that could be explored in the same way. If we did we may discover the Great Beings have a lot of teachings that are in Harmony. A Harmony we can embrace.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I believe that God is not ‘this’ or ‘that’ or anything I can imagine. That which I can imagine is not God.

And yes that is one of the many 'conceptions' of God. There are plenty more.

 

[CG Didymus]

One big difference I've noticed is the approach to other religions. JWs and others have their own philosophies, and will argue all day how the other ones except theirs are all wrong. Their disagreement is right out there for all to see. There is no sneakiness. Here I am, take it or leave it.

The Baha'i, on the other had pretend they don't disagree with other world views, and actually try to incorporate them into the Baha'i teachings, but in so doing, alter them to suit their agenda, thus insulting them by changing them. So if i were to learn Buddhism from the twe sources, JW would most likely be far more accurate. Hateful, but accurate. Of course I actually wouldn't do that, I'd go to a Buddhist.

They "pretend" to agree and believe in the other major religions. That is the most negative and troubling thing about the Baha'i Faith for me. It just happened with Whitestone, a Christian.

But for you too, there is nothing they believe is true about your beliefs, yet act as if they do. Except when they say you are wrong and deluded.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We'll see how true to your word you can be. So far it's just been more Baha'i proselytizing.

Please lead on. I enjoy our interactions. Do you really think I hang around here because of hope someone will become a Baha’i? Not on your life. I’ve been 6 months here sharing and learning and enjoying it. I’m enjoying exploring, the journey and adventure as I’m sure some others are.

There’s absolutely no chance of anyone here becoming a Baha’i but I like mixing with you guys and am very happy to discuss all sorts of topics.

So where did the idea of reincarnation originate from?

 

[Vinayaka]

There are so many concepts that could be explored in the same way. If we did we may discover the Great Beings have a lot of teachings that are in Harmony. A Harmony we can embrace.

Regards Tony

This is a basic assumption that fails in this debate. The basic assumption is that the so called 'Great Beings' exist. Sure it works for Baha'i because they believe that. But what of the many people who believe in just one 'Great Being', the rest being false, or people like me who don't believe in Great Beings at all?

I don't see how you can even possibly consider a debate a debate at all, when you define the debate on Baha'i beliefs. You're not debating with fellow Baha'i here, you're debating with non-Baha'i who disagree on the basic premise. If they agreed, they'd be Baha'i. Some days I still feel this entire thread should have been put in the Baha'i DIR. You can't really ask for a critique, or a debate, and then just expect everyone to agree with you. That's folly, wishful thinking, sure, but folly.

The original question was 'How do you explain the Great Beings'. My explanation was 'they don't exist'. That's a decent explanation for a person like me who believes that. Of course it fails completely if you take that for granted.

This comes up a lot in religious debates. The OP starts out with an assumption of truth, and goes from there. But what if that assumption itself is wrong?

It's like saying, 'If you go to Australia and you only have two cities to choose from, would you rather visit Wellington, or Auckland?" See the false assumption there?

 

[Vinayaka]

So where did the idea of reincarnation originate from?

From experience. Ancient sages remembered their own past lives clearly. Then they told others. It's a belief of many religions. I believe in it from experience too, not from dogma. Not my own past life so much (some but not the major factor) but from my children ... suspicions of who they were, and then those suspicions being confirmed by what they said.

 

[Vinayaka]

They "pretend" to agree and believe in the other major religions. That is the most negative and troubling thing about the Baha'i Faith for me. It just happened with Whitestone, a Christian.

But for you too, there is nothing they believe is true about your beliefs, yet act as if they do. Except when they say you are wrong and deluded.

Yes, there is a certain building frustration in all of this. I guess I can add 'troll' to my growing list now. I think Whitestone's posts got deleted, I couldn't find them. You have a number still?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And yes that is one of the many 'conceptions' of God. There are plenty more.

I believe I can’t ever imagine God but I can know a bit about what He’s like. From the Prophets and Educators attributes like All Loving, All Wise and All Knowing spring forth. I’m sure there are others.

I very much like the story about the snake farm and the ‘broken bus’. That’s in extremely poor taste and basically deceit and lying.
But the story was enlightening none the less and I know where you’re coming from.

But I would be mad too if someone tried to do that to our children.

 

[loverofhumanity]

From experience. Ancient sages remembered their own past lives clearly. Then they told others. It's a belief of many religions. I believe in it from experience too, not from dogma. Not my own past life so much (some but not the major factor) but from my children ... suspicions of who they were, and then those suspicions being confirmed by what they said.

What was your experience?

 

[loverofhumanity]

What the heck! I don’t really care what we discuss I just like coming here and being with you guys and I don’t really care what we talk about.

I enjoy all your company and to me it’s just a beautiful place to get to know each other and share notes.

I like the fellowship, I like the criticism as much as the praise (when I get it) but it’s just being together that I enjoy the most.

Winning or losing, point or counterpoint I don’t really care, I just like you guys company and I think it’s fun and enjoyable.

No ones going to change but we have a kind of unity in that we love to thrash out stuff.

We are diverse and I think that is what has kept us at it. It’s just been and is a fascinating journey so far. Thank you all so much for just being different.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is from a Hindu publication and it says it all for me why I like so much mixing with ‘godly’ people even though they may have opposite or very different beliefs. I feel a kind of security around people like you all here because you all love what is good.

Here is the kind of world that frightens me and coming to places like this keeps my spirit alive.

Existentialism offers—
in the place of devotion and yoga and inner attainment—a
dark view of man and of the universe. It postulates that there
is no inherent meaning in life, nor is there immortality of
the soul. It tells its follower that he cannot know order or
har mony, for he is essentially a troubled being who must rely
only on himself. It is a self-centered system, whereas Hindu-
ism is a selfless, evolutionary, God-centric system.

I live in a world surrounded by existentialism and it’s tye worst hell for the spirit. People here love God and people and Causes and that’s why I never grow tired of you guys because in a dark world many of you are spiritually uplifting.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There were many, and I don't usually share because it will get ridiculed by people who don't believe in reincarnation, and tell me I'm a creative writer, deny my experience, or otherwise give condescending comments. but I'll share one. I think I told it to you before, but I will again, because if I did tell you, you would have discarded the memory.

My friend died tragically in a tragic accident, age 22. He had a premonition about it, and bought a life insurance policy with his parents as benefactors. I saw him about 3 weeks before the tragedy. I went to the funeral, a sad deal, way too Christian for comfort as he was agnostic, maybe atheist. Parents didn't know what else to do, but were glad I, and some other friends were there. I knew the Mom well, had been a colleague at one time.

Two hours later, at the burial, I sensed 'hovering' and looked up to the top of a tree. It shook ... on a windless day, I was the only one who noticed. It was him. He rode back to his parent's place for the 'wake' or lunch. We all had some good stories, the usual. But when I went to leave, Mom and dad both hugged me, and it was then that I knew. He rode in the car, just like we had so many times before. I stopped and bought 2 coffees, and put one in the holder on his side. He didn't drink it, lol so I did, on his behalf. We 'talked' (inner talk) some, and it was clear he wanted into our family. My wife knew when I got home after the 3 hour drive. 'I see you brought a guest' ... Because we all knew, there was less time between births, and we accepted his request. He had always dreamed of more normalcy, and has now grown into a mature 37 year old with a wife and two kids. My wife conceived a bout a week later, she always knew from mystical visions when she was pregnant, she was 6 for 6 on that. (One was miscarried)

In very early childhood, he spoke of coming from a tree, riding in the same car, drumming, and other stuff relating to his past life. All that waned eventually as he developed the personality of this lifetime.

We had good karma together, the 3 of us. My wife once told me that he was probably the only other person she could have married, had I been successful on my quest to be a monk.

So there you go. Take it or leave it, lol.

Thanks Vinayaka. I really appreciate you sharing that with me. And it sounds like you had a very beautiful experience. It does appear to be a confirmation that life continues on and that death is not annihilation as many think today.

That story uplifted and encouraged me greatly as I have always dreaded death. It gives me hope that as we also believe that we continue on in another form.

Much appreciated.