How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

I do want to discuss but after awhile, to know more about Bahai than books and websites, I'd have to go to your place of worship. I'm not a scholar, so I pretty much know the basics. I did wanted to go more into why you'd think The Dharma would decay. Unless the suttas contradict themselves and/or you're not familiar with The Dharma itself (not the suttas), I wouldn't see how it would.

There were a couple of other topics but I know you are conversing with other people. After awhile, I forget I even asked any questions.



One sect of Hinduism, probably so. Remember, they are not all the same in theology.

Let me ask, how do you relate the god of abraham to Brahma and Brahman?

I know this sounds off, but that's online tone of voice. What do you know personally of Brahma and Brahman that would let you know they are the same as the god of abraham (beyond traits such as love and generosity)?

Thanks Carlita. With the Dhamma decaying I think what it means to me is that the practice of the Dhamma will cease gradually not that it will literally disappear.

Christ said a similar thing ‘My Words will never pass away’ but to me there are many meanings. He is saying that the Revelations of God will never cease.

In the Quran also it says that ‘if all the trees were pens and the oceans ink then the Words of God would never end meaning that there will always be Revelations from God.

All these sayings have but one meaning that humans will forever receive guidance and teachings from a Buddha or a Muhammad or a Christ like Figure. Their Revelations will never end.

But when we look at things like Buddha speaking of His Dhamma being replaced by a counterfeit Dhamma He is i believe referring to the original Dhamma not being practiced as was intended and that the art has been lost over many centuries when another Buddha will arise and renew the original esssnce of His Dhamma as well as teach His own religion.

I have never been a Hindu so the names Brahma or Brahman do not register any immediate meaning to me as I do not follow that tradition.

But I belive that the Ultimate Reality or God is One and Indiviseable and that we are all serving the same God but according to our understanding and spiritual levels. I belive there is only One God but that He has many attributes so Hindus may follow different attributes to the Baha’is or Muslims but still we all know God by His attributes

 

[Vinayaka]

One of the reasons why religion is renewed from time to time is precisely because politics and man made dogmas eventually water down the original teachings and the religion becomes spiritually only a shell of its former self not really giving enough spiritual guidance for the new age.

This is the very first time in human history where a Prophet has appeared claiming to have a Divine Order but it was over 2,000 years ago that Christ promised the Kingdom of God would come to the earth. By that we understand a spiritual civilization based on God’s spiritual laws not man’s political and economical laws.

So an order with things like virtues of justice, love, unity and a human rights would reign instead of corruption and greed. This has not yet been tested yet universally but so far we are not experiencing the corruption inherent in current day politics and Baha’is willingly serve and obey the Universal House of Justice out of love and devotion as they see it as the Kingdom of God on earth.

Yes, this is the Baha'i'. belief. We know it by now. It is the entire theme of this thread, as I indicated before. Baha'i proselytizing. It applies to maybe 3 million people on this planet. The other 7 billion are fine for the most part, except the fundamentalists, which maybe number 100 million.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have never ever heard any Bahai make mention of any other group having difficulties in Iran or elsewhere.

One member wanted to 'tell me' what I would say about the Haulocaust but I'll bet that same member could never guess what I would say, nor how many groups I would mention.

I read no further than that, but I wonder if he wanted to somehow reverse Bahai persecution into Haulocaust persecution? I may find out.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[Vinayaka]

I e also see letters from our National Assembly appealing to Bahais not to go back to Iran but they cannot stop them.

Many Baha'is, when they leave Iran, also leave Baha'i. They see a whole new open world beyond Islam and baha'i, and go 'Wow! Just wow!"

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks Carlita. With the Dhamma decaying I think what it means to me is that the practice of the Dhamma will cease gradually not that it will literally disappear.

In America and Canada, Buddhism is growing by leaps and bounds. Fueled by immigration, and a genuine search from those disillusioned with Abrahamic faiths, there are many Buddhist centers springing up. It will continue to grow because it offers so much to humanity. Here;s one example close to me ... opened a couple of yearsback..
Dhamma Karuṇā

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Iran it's any non-Muslim. Christians, Jews, Parsees, also are persecuted. This article, in fact, lists Baha'is as fourth in line.

Minority Religious Groups Suffer in Iran

It's wrong. Fingers should be pointed at the perpetrators, not just all non-Baha'i.

Thank you, it was never said others do not also suffer and as Loverofhumanity posted, this is acknowledged by all Baha'is.

You have misunderstood this article you linked to, as you may not be aware of the situation in Iran.

This article says that Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians are groups that are "supposedly given special recognition by the country’s constitution", but yes they are still persecuted.

With the Baha'is they do not even have that recognition and the article goes on to give some details about the Baha'i situation. It is no about being first or last in a line.

You finished with

"Fingers should be pointed at the perpetrators, not just all non-Baha'i."

It is the perpetrators that all UN Resolutions have been directed to, so what is meant by "not just all non-Baha'i".

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I don’t want to end discussion as I really enjoy it here and I learn from you all but I got the impression you weren’t wanting to discuss anymore. But I’m more than happy to keep talking about anything not just Bahá’í.

We'll see how true to your word you can be. So far it's just been more Baha'i proselytizing.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you, it was never said others do not also suffer and as Loverofhumanity posted, this is acknowledged by all Baha'is.

You have misunderstood this article you linked to, as you may not be aware of the situation in Iran.

This article says that Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians are groups that are "supposedly given special recognition by the country’s constitution", but yes they are still persecuted.

With the Baha'is they do not even have that recognition and the article goes on to give some details about the Baha'i situation. It is no about being first or last in a line.

You finished with

It is the perpetrators that all UN Resolutions have been directed to, so what is meant by "not just all non-Baha'i".

Regards Tony

Look Tony. On this thread I've personally been called deluded. blind, walking away from God, diseased like leprosy, and more. I'm most certainly not anti Baha'i, promoting violence against Baha'i or any other such thing. Baha'u'llah himself spoke often and with many phrases of how anyone who wouldn't listen to him or heed his advice was lost. He was insulting to anyone not willing to follow.

Besides that, I've had to endure people telling me how I should think ... telling me I agree when I blatantly and obviously disagree. It's insulting to the core.

The UN has it right, They are putting the blame directly on the Islamic government in Iran. It's here where it gets generalised. There are many wonderful peace loving adherents of many religions on this planet. Most Christians, many Muslims, and 99 % of all dharmic faiths want nothing but peace. But when you hurl insults and preach misconceptions about out faith, just what kind of a reaction to you expect? I'm hoping, just for once, there can be some real honest looking in a mirror so that this egocentric condescending attitude towards all non-Baha'i can stop. Hurl all the insults you want at Islamic fundamentalism, imperialism, or any other group that wants to dominate this planet, but please leave the rest of us alone in your insults.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think Hindus believe in God as the Ultimate Reality but that aGod like Siva is a God of love. I did read that somewhere recently in a Hindu publication.

There are many conceptions of God in Hinduism. God can be anything to anyone, even not God at all. There are plenty of Hindu atheists, one on this forum. In my sampradaya, God has 3 perfections, interrelated but somewhat different too. We don't limit God to 'this' or that'. Besides our own conceptions, we also understand the right of anyone to have further variations. We're tolerant. Whatever works for you is fine.

 

[Vinayaka]

Persecution happens everywhere, it's all over. The aboriginal peoples of Canada and elsewhere face discrimination every day. The planet has had attempted and successful genocides for centuries. Every group who is persecuted is more attached to their own personal cause than any other, because of ethnocentrism. 100 000 plus lives were lost in the Sri lankan civil war, sometimes referred to as an atttemped genocide. because of my affiliation with the Sri Lankan community here, I personally feel that.

But I also think it's fair to look at numbers. Each and every embodied soul on this planet is a life, a potential good person, a giver to society. So I think, when we look at persecution, we should look at all of it, not just our own ethnic group. That seems far more fair to me.

Past Genocides - Armenia, Holocaust, Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur

 

[oldbadger]

It doesn’t matter how obedient the Baha’is are to the government, like the Jews they are targeted for elimination.

Absolutely wrong, it seems!
I didn't know it until last night, but when I had a quick research into the Jews in Iran I discovered that they are left alone to live their lives on one special condition, that they do not voice any opinion at all about the country of Israel.

I read an account by one Jew who stated that living in Iran is safer than living in France.

Where do you get your info from, investigation of truth or just whatever you fancy?

 

[oldbadger]

There is no law in Iran as to Apostatic religions. I posted above article 23 of the Constitution...............

................... with the integration of the Revolutionary Courts ........................, have applied the death sentence to cases of apostasy (HRW Sep 1997, p. 15, 29)

....which means that there IS a law in Iran, a religious theocracy, about apostasy.

Your post suggested that there is no law.... but then you wrote that of course there is a law..... about apostasy. Which part of Sharia law don't you get?

Hundreds of thousands of Bahais live in Iran. They have lived in Iran for 1.5 centuries and are still there. They might get heavy treatment if they step out of line, but they possibly get a better deal than, say, some black communities in Southern States of the USA.

Let's face it.......... you don't like Shia'Muslims very much. True?
I am not much attracted to extreme Muslims any more than I am to fundie Christians, but around here they are good neighbours.

Weird thing is they think by wiping out the Baha'i their rule is safe, but it is the opposite, if they allowed Baha'i its God Given freedom, then they would have assured their reign.

It will change and I pray it is their hearts that do so.

Regards Tony

Duh........ if they had been so determined to 'wipe out' Bahai, how come hundreds of thousands are still there?
That's why you wouldn't answer the population question about Iran, I'm guessing?

Some of us here hope and/or pray that you will see the light............... does that sound a bit arrogant to you? If so, try something else yourself.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hurl all the insults you want at Islamic fundamentalism, imperialism, or any other group that wants to dominate this planet, but please leave the rest of us alone in your insults.

Please show where this is happening.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Did you see my post which mentioned Jews in Iran?
Apparently they get left alone there, undisturbed on condition that they do not hold forth about Israel in any way.
I read that they feel safer in Iran than in France.

Hmmmm...... I was about to make comment about France, but then I thought about you living in Canada, where some Canadians love 'em............. so I didn't!

 

[oldbadger]

Many Baha'is, when they leave Iran, also leave Baha'i. They see a whole new open world beyond Islam and baha'i, and go 'Wow! Just wow!"

I didn't know that! You've amazed me!
I expect a few Shia'Muslims discover that as well.
Most Muslims that I worked with wanted a decent motor, Versace Jeans, Nike trainers, some street cred and a gorgeous chic on arm. That actually isn't such a bad thing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Some of us here hope and/or pray that you will see the light............... does that sound a bit arrogant to you?

Thank you for the Prayer, I hope that also.

Arrogance would think we have some part to play in the answer to any prayer, or if the prayer is from the heart, it is actually our prayer at all. If it is a good prayer, then the motivation for the prayer or any action resulting from the prayer has always belonged to the Source of all good.

To me the the greatest prison and enemy is the prison and enemy of self and then there is this prayer, which I have heard was revealed for prisoners facing injustice;

Firstly "Baha’u’llah instructs that believers must detach themselves and recite this prayer nine times"....

...."He is, in truth, the Omnipotent, the Unconstrained! O Lord of Names and Fashioner of the Heavens!

Free Thy lovers from the prison of the enemy. Verily, Thou art the Sovereign Ordainer of Thine irrevocable decree. He who alone shineth resplendent on the horizon of creation. O Everlasting Root! By the life of the All-Glorious, deprive them not of hope, nay rather aid and assist them. Verily, Thou rulest as Thou pleasest and within Thy grasp lie the kingdoms of creation. The fangs of Thine enemies have been whetted, ready to bite into the flesh of Thy lovers.

Protect these companions, O Thou Who rulest over all humankind and art the Judge on the Day of Judgement."

Injustice will not last and I have no problem standing my ground on what is injustice. Learning the wisdom in doing this, is life.

Stay well and happy I wish you well as I do all people.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Sorry usually do not refer to the person as it is the comment that is being addressed. I missed that I had put You, instead it was the thought that was being scrutinized, not the person.

Fair enough.................

So reposted;

Consider the plight of the Jews when Germany decided they had to go.

We would be saying, lets not listen to any thing they say, they are Jews and can not be trusted. Matters not that Truth is all they would give, we have to have the persecutors side of the story. Matters not that many support what the Jews are saying, they have to show us facts from German sources that they have any credibility. When a document or two are presented, still not enough, need more evidence from the persecutors.

I wouldn't be saying anything like that.
And I wouldn't just be focusing upon the outrageous genocide of the Jews.

I would be focusing upon the outrageous treatment of several cultures, groups, religions, nationalities and races.

I would not be focusing upon 6 millions murders, but over 11 million murders that took place. What I would say is, 'Go and find out about all those people who were murdered, the whole of the victims.'

And let us remember this, in a Bahai World not one of those 11 million people would be allowed a vote.

No such actions as occured in Nazi Germany are happening to Bahais in Iran. You cannot tell me how many Bahai executions have occured in the last decade but I can tell you that 250 innocents were murdered for every hour of the War in Nazi Germany.

Please don't even attempt to compare Iran to Nazi Germany.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009



Lover said he would have ended the discussion.

If non bahai didnt defend our faith, what would you ask/say to us in regards to our reply?

I enjoy talking to you Carlita and it has been great to hear different POVs which we all have a right too.

The tone of the conversation on this thread has changed completely and I've largely switched off.

I have discovered a new word though...

Internet troll - Wikipedia

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I enjoy talking to you Carlita and it has been great to hear different POVs which we all have a right too.

The tone of the conversation on this thread has changed completely and I've largely switched off.

I have discovered a new word though...

Internet troll - Wikipedia

LOL internet troll?

I've heard of troll before.

Never did liked the word. You have sooo many people from other countries, some people who don't speak English well, and others who actually have serious concerns with their faith and probably don't have a person to express their anger/concerns to.

A lot of assumptions. I didn't know some people on this thread have a bit of trouble with English and understanding English context of our questions and answers.

So,

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Fair enough.................

I wouldn't be saying anything like that.
And I wouldn't just be focusing upon the outrageous genocide of the Jews.

I would be focusing upon the outrageous treatment of several cultures, groups, religions, nationalities and races.

I would not be focusing upon 6 millions murders, but over 11 million murders that took place. What I would say is, 'Go and find out about all those people who were murdered, the whole of the victims.'

And let us remember this, in a Bahai World not one of those 11 million people would be allowed a vote.

No such actions as occured in Nazi Germany are happening to Bahais in Iran. You cannot tell me how many Bahai executions have occured in the last decade but I can tell you that 250 innocents were murdered for every hour of the War in Nazi Germany.

Please don't even attempt to compare Iran to Nazi Germany.

I enjoy the challenge of your questions while we remain respectful to each other and tackle the foundation of why we think as we do. To me this is how we do learn and to me this attitude fosters healthy debate.

We agree all Persecution must cease.

So there is some foundation to what I offer and why I see the plight of the Baha'is in the Birth place of 2 Revelations as being significant, it is because this passage of Prophecy that has been unfolding:

“Give heed to my warning, ye people of Persia,” He thus addresses His countrymen, “If I be slain at your hands, God will assuredly raise up one who will fill the seat made vacant through my death; for such is God’s method carried into effect of old, and no change can ye find in God’s mode of dealing.” “Should they attempt to conceal His light on the continent, He will assuredly rear His head in the midmost heart of the ocean and, raising His voice, proclaim: ‘I am the lifegiver of the world!...."

It is in the Midmost heart of the ocean that the Persecution of peoples in Persia is now bearing its greatest Fruit.

Persecution is a Virus, it is appropriate to compare all these events in history, as the only reason there is not greater genocide that took place in the past is because of the miracle of modern communications and the scrutiny of the world about all these atrocities.

The amazing thing is Modern communication was born from the first ever message sent on the day after the declaration of the Bab with the Message, 'What has God Wrought'. Indeed a great question taken from the Bible, book of Numbers.

Baha'u'llah has also said in this age no thing a man has commited will remain unknown, even if they think they have done it in full secret. (My memory and understanding of a passage I have read)

The plight of all ethnic groups was adressed by Baha'u'llah, all Predudices are unlawful and thus when Abdul'baha visited America He made it a priority to talk about and demonstrate the urgent requirement of inter race relationships.

I do not know why you keep saying in a Baha' World no one will get a vote. They actually have to vote more if one chooses to be a Baha'i. You have your Local area and Country Elections to which you participate in and then we also have the Baha'i Electoral process and we embrace both in a spirit of service to all humanity.

Regards Tony