How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

I just think it's important to know you can go, and feeling too much family pressure shows selfishness rather than love for the individual. I'm glad you said 'or shouldn't be' to the shunning. I can't imagine shunning family members over that.

But this is fairly typical of those testimonies I've read. Certainly not just some whim, or because they're unhealthy. It's a serious well thought out decision, based on experiences. One can only feel for them. I wish her Mom could read it, anonymously. But there is also this ... doesn't happen to me' denial syndrome for a lot of us.

Reading the post I have a sense that her mother will be OK about it and in all likelihood already senses that her daughter is having issues with her faith.

I think its all part of a process of secularisation that is more pronounced in the West and increasingly dominant in the East too, where people are questioning the values and beliefs they have grown up with and exploring new ideologies. The general trend in the West is a move away from religion into not having any belief. Baha'u'llah predicted this when He talked about the vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land.

Are you suggesting that Hindu parents never apply pressure to their children to live in accordance with their cherished beliefs and values? Hindus of course have the same types of problems as other faith adherents. I think its just harder for some parents to let go, yet still love.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is why the reply was to CG and not you

Regards Tony

Oops, I just responded to a post you made to Vinayaka. I hope that's okay.

 

[Vinayaka]

Is here an ‘as is’? Because interpretations widely differ even amongst people of the same religion. So for instance tell me what is Christianity? Or Islam? Or even Buddhism?

We accept all the Founders of each religion and their Holy Books just not the conflicting interpretations of their sects.

Welcome back. You missed a long discussion. I meant the parts that aren't interpreted by Baha'i. Christianity as Christians see it, not Christianity as Baha'i interpret it. You know, like a used car when you buy it 'as is', No changes needed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Personally, I would like to think I would never judge a religion decision like that as unhealthy. A person has to do what they have to do. Dogmatism, alcoholism, following blindly, sure. These were gut wrenching decisions by real people.

The result of all our decisions are relevant to the events in our life and where those decisions will take us. I do not talk from inexperience in these matters.

Adrian said above;

I've come across quite a few Baha'is that have had time out

I had many years of inactivity due to my decisions in life. I can look back, see all the self that was in those decisions, see that these mistakes were a great bounty as a part of growth and try to become a better person as a result.

Those decisions I made had not a thing to do with the Word of Baha'u'llah, it had a lot to do with me having very little understanding of what was offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Reading the post I have a sense that her mother will be OK about it and in all likelihood already senses that her daughter is having issues with her faith.

I think its all part of a process of secularisation that is more pronounced in the West and increasingly dominant in the East too, where people are questioning the values and beliefs they have grown up with and exploring new ideologies. The general trend in the West is a move away from religion into not having any belief. Baha'u'llah predicted this when He talked about the vitality of men's belief in God is dying out in every land.

Are you suggesting that Hindu parents never apply pressure to their children to live in accordance with their cherished beliefs and values? Hindus of course have the same types of problems as other faith adherents. I think its just harder for some parents to let go, yet still love.

The pressure in Hinduism is to study, and study hard. It's unrelenting and unbalanced, but comes from a fear of poverty, so it's understandable. Sad, still. One family I know could have had a son who was good at track get a full scholarship at basically his choice of US universities, but they wouldn't let him go because it would 'interfere' with his studies. There is little pressure about religious matters. Very different paradigms. Religion in general is taken more lightly because of the belief in reincarnation. No hurry.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But how do you engage a Christian that you know is completely committed to Fundamentalist doctrines? You know it's going to cause problems. So can a Baha'i sacrifice some of their beliefs for the sake of unity? 'Cause without some understanding between the more conservative and dogmatic forms of religion, there will be no peace.

One of my best friends at the Christian medical centre is an American Christian fundamentalist who believes in creation literally, the resurrection, Divinity of Christ and studies her bible 1 hour a day. We've had some great discussions and get along just fine.

When I saw Whitestone's posts with all those biblical quotes, I was happy to leave it to Tony. I don't think Whitestone will last too long on RF but I could be wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

Now the quandary. Why are you against the challenge to a long held view. Is this not what all the Great Beings have done?

Is this not why all of them faced rejection and persecution by the people of their times?

Also all the challenges we offer, we have already faced or are yet to face, most importantly these Words are not from us, they are offered from God, for all of Us.

I guess as we are tagged as proselytizers, then the tag is passed to God, as with what we offer from God, there is no charge, there is no force of conversion, it is but another choice of view, a view that has given keys to meanings of all Scriptures.

Happy to leave it alone at any time, it is you that has encouraged us to offer more, but then the charge of proselytizing?

Regards Tony

Did Whitestone ask for information on the Baha'i Faith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What exactly makes them great now?

You have offered why on many occasions.

People still try to practice their advice.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

There are two types of Knowledge.

Regards Tony

I welcome Vinayaka's input on anything I've posted. But what does this thing about knowledge have to do with it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did Whitestone ask for information on the Baha'i Faith?

Did Whitestone offer passages that only referred to Christianity? A debatable point.

Thus posting them in a Debate Forum as the Only way to God in a subject about all the Great Beings, is in itself allowing for the offering of alternate views, that one may not have yet considered.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I welcome Vinayaka's input on anything I've posted. But what does this thing about knowledge have to do with it?

Nothing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I welcome Vinayaka's input on anything I've posted. But what does this thing about knowledge have to do with it?

I have noticed on this Forum, that lots of replies are skipped, we do not see them all and you actually have to backtrack to find them, very strange. I posted those answers back to Vinayaka. They would be quite a few posts back this morning

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

The pressure in Hinduism is to study, and study hard. It's unrelenting and unbalanced, but comes from a fear of poverty, so it's understandable. Sad, still. One family I know could have had a son who was good at track get a full scholarship at basically his choice of US universities, but they wouldn't let him go because it would 'interfere' with his studies. There is little pressure about religious matters. Very different paradigms. Religion in general is taken more lightly because of the belief in reincarnation. No hurry.

I've come across a lot of people of Indian decent who are well educated and some who don't really have the aptitude and feel pressured to be something they are not cut out for.

I rarely have discussions with Hindus about religion so the last 10 months talking with you (through positive and not so positive) has been quite a treat.

I picked up quite an anti Abrahamic vibe from both you and Aup so wondered what it might be like for the child of a Hindu nationalist to become a Muslim or Christian.

 

[Vinayaka]

As for people leaving a religion, it can often be a great thing. I know people who chose serving the community, like working for Amnestuy International, rather than proselytising. If the 'service' the church offers is proselytizing or fundraising, I can certainly see why people would leave to do something far more useful to humanity like doctors without borders, or many of the other secular charities out there.

But again, every case is unique. In my view it is more often a good thing than a bad thing.

 

[CG Didymus]

There are many branches of Knowledge, I talk about the source.

There is our Material learning and there is our Spiritual Learning and within these branches, an unlimited amount of knowledge is available.

You have said the fear of God is unhealthy, Baha'u'llah has said; "Fear God and God will give you knowledge." (Bahá’u’lláh, The Seven Valleys, p. 3)

Abdul'baha gave further of this thought;

"Is it not astonishing that although man has been created for the knowledge and love of God, for the virtues of the human world, for spirituality, heavenly illumination and life eternal, nevertheless he continues ignorant and negligent of all this? Consider how he seeks knowledge of everything except knowledge of God.(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 64)

This is a challenge for all of us to embrace, or to continue in the life we know.

Regards Tony

Maybe God hasn't been using the right teaching methods? Like putting a tree with a serpent in it... Right in the middle of a garden and then telling Adam not to eat the fruit? Of course he's going to eat it. And then God curses him?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of the many ex-Baha'is I've talked to on-line, the most common reason certainly isn't that they were converted away from it. It's that they became disillusioned with Baha'i teachings, or discovered it no longer made sense to them. Most who got converted to Baha'i stopped practicing because they found out about the homosexuality, gender equality, or other problems, and realised they were deceived initially. Born Baha'is leave for the same reason ... they just realise that it's mostly been a lie, and want to spread their wings. So there are many reasons.

I think most people who leave any religions just do it on their own accord, and the most common destination is 'no religion'. It's also common in mixed faith marriages for one to switch in hopes of marital harmony.

To me the only thing that really mattered was ‘is this from God or not’? And once I knew it was from God then my belief remained unshakeable.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Still don't get it, but go ahead, have your theories. My theory is that there is a consciousness of selfishness pervading all realms of the planet, and those unaware of (called anava in Sanskrit) it can be drawn into it without knowing. More prevalent in some areas than others, sure.

I like that theory and see it ties back into our use of Mind. We have to release ourselves from selfishness.

Materialism to me is the big draw with many not considering the consequences, a rippling effect in itself.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

I had many years of inactivity due to my decisions in life. I can look back, see all the self that was in those decisions, see that these mistakes were a great bounty as a part of growth and try to become a better person as a result.

Those decisions I made had not a thing to do with the Word of Baha'u'llah, it had a lot to do with me having very little understanding of what was offered.

Regards Tony

I think we all do what seems like the best at the time. You became a Baha'i very quickly so its only natural you would have some time out to digest.

I had five years searching and investigating the truth and a couple of years after becoming a Baha'i to really understand it.

We all have a differing journey in life.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've come across a lot of people of Indian decent who are well educated and some who don't really have the aptitude and feel pressured to be something they are not cut out for.

I rarely have discussions with Hindus about religion so the last 10 months talking with you (through positive and not so positive) has been quite a treat.

I picked up quite an anti Abrahamic vibe from both you and Aup so wondered what it might be like for the child of a Hindu nationalist to become a Muslim or Christian.

I'm only anti-Abrahamic to deceitful conversion tactics and other harmful to humanity practices, but yes there are lots of those to be anti about. I just posted a nice story in the food and beverage forum about a Catholic monk though. So I see lots of positives too, but the proselytizing is my main beef. That I will stand against forever.

Like I said, about Hindus, it's more the Indian culture, and the fear of poverty that makes them so keen on education, as education is often the only way out. Some second generation kids have managed to see through it with their kids, now the third generation. In India itself it remains quite extreme. The kids lose much of their childhood, but it;s the same within all faiths in India. Christians and Muslims there are just as adamant regarding education.

 

[CG Didymus]

Is here an ‘as is’? Because interpretations widely differ even amongst people of the same religion. So for instance tell me what is Christianity? Or Islam? Or even Buddhism?

We accept all the Founders of each religion and their Holy Books just not the conflicting interpretations of their sects.

So Baha'is offer another interpretation. One that makes the things believed by the majority of the religion... False.