How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

As for people leaving a religion, it can often be a great thing. I know people who chose serving the community, like working for Amnestuy International, rather than proselytising. If the 'service' the church offers is proselytizing or fundraising, I can certainly see why people would leave to do something far more useful to humanity like doctors without borders, or many of the other secular charities out there.

But again, every case is unique. In my view it is more often a good thing than a bad thing.

Baha'is believe if religion causes hatred and estrangement between people it is better to be without that religion. In many ways its up to us what we do with our religion. Hopefully it is an opportunity to become a better, more compassionate and giving person.

I agree that its much better to be of service to humanity than to go around aggressively proselytizing being a thorn in everyone's side.

 

[CG Didymus]

No. He was all out proselytizing Christianity, just as the Baha'i here rarely ask about other faiths, wishing to stick to the Baha'i agenda. But he was far worse, in my view, and I'm sure he got reported from other threads where people are more likely to report. I was watching, popcorn in hand, for his and Tony's interaction.

Yeah, I just got the popcorn salted and buttered and came back and it was over.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know what you mean but which ‘Christianity as Christians see it’ are you referring you because to my knowledge that’s a mythical address? In the real world there is no such thing as a Christianity as all Christians see it but a Christianity as 40,000 opposing sects see it. So which sect of these 40,000 are you referring to?

Christians themselves cannot define which is the true Christianity so how am I supposed choose from 40,000 sects?

The common denominator of the 40,000 sects of Christianity are Jesus Christ and the Gospels which is what we agree with. That’s pretty powerful unity and agreement.

The gospels? The ones that say Jesus rose from the dead? So no you don't agree with the gospels. You have to interpret the gospels according to what the Baha'i Faith teaches. A belief that none of the major Christian denominations hold... That the resurrection was only symbolic and not literal.

Which for all I know, might be true. But that means, like I've said again and again, that Christianity has been wrong from the beginning, because they do believe he rose physically from the grave.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So is the purpose to find points of unity or to show how all the other religions are wrong?

What has happened on this thread when we have offered to look at points of unity.

Why do people not want to look if they do share a common souce for their Faith?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

This is the first sentence of the Wiki article on fundamentalism.

"Fundamentalism usually has a religious connotation that indicates unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs."

The article goes on to explore various faiths, and alternative ideas. But if one goes by this simple definition alone, Baha'i is a fundamentalist faith, clearly. I see it all in degrees though, as to how far people go in their actions.

Certainly fundamentalism is the enemy of religion.

I can see why it happens, especially with Christianity. The New Testament has all kinds of verses that say or imply that Jesus is the only way. Christians make it the infallible, inerrant word of God, so anything that goes against it is false. And since they believe in Satan, everything that goes against the New Testament is from the devil.

 

[CG Didymus]

I would offer this explanation again, and offer that it is read considering each aspect of what is being said.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126

Regards Tony

That's the point. God doesn't reveal the true interpretation until thousands of years later? How can his word be trusted if what is said is not what it means?

 

[CG Didymus]

What has happened on this thread when we have offered to look at points of unity.

Why do people not want to look if they do share a common souce for their Faith?

Regards Tony

Many people do find things they both can agree on, but it usually doesn't include religion or politics.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's the point. God doesn't reveal the true interpretation until thousands of years later? How can his word be trusted if what is said is not what it means?

We learn that we can not rely upon our own understanding and trust what it is saying to our Spiritual selves.

What I have seen there is people that do understand these concepts very well. The more we open to our spiritual existence, the more that is found.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Seasons greetings everyone.

 

[ajay0]

There is much truth in all versions and sects of all religions I believe.

But our belief is that originally Their was a Founder of each Faith which all these sects originally sprung from but they all went their own way eventually.

Officially we recognize Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Christ, the Bab and Baha’u’llah but also many truths in other sects and science.

We don’t accept or reject everything that the different sects believe in. A lot of it is truth we believe but some things we have a different view on.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris also state that the following figures were prophets and God as Shiva/Jehovah/Allah has come upon the present personally as a teacher.

But the Brahmakumaris teach about reincarnation and Awareness which the bahai's do not. That is the minor difference I perceive between them.

I credit the Bahai religion as the most progressive Abrahamic religion in terms of promoting world peace and harmony, without any hypocrisy in this regard.

 

[Katzpur]

We've discussed this before.

Perhaps some Mormons describe their missionary work as proselytizing, but I doubt if most Christians would view themselves in that way and most would certainly avoid many of the behaviours associated with the more aggressive forms of proselytizing.

Proselytism - Wikipedia

Lets look at some aspects of what it means to proselytize:

Proselytism - Wikipedia

(1)making unjust or uncharitable references to other churches’ beliefs and practices and even ridiculing them;

(2) comparing two Christian communities by emphasizing the achievements and ideals of one, and the weaknesses and practical problems of the other;

(3) employing any kind of physical violence, moral compulsion and psychological pressure e.g. the use of certain advertising techniques in mass media that might bring undue pressure on readers/viewers;

(4) using political, social and economic power as a means of winning new members for one’s own church;

(5) extending explicit or implicit offers of education, health care or material inducements or using financial resources with the intent of making converts;

(6) manipulative attitudes and practices that exploit people’s needs, weaknesses or lack of education especially in situations of distress, and fail to respect their freedom and human dignity.

Which ones apply to the Baha'is?

I've certainly seen a lot of (1) and (2) from non-Baha'is here so do you consider yourself one who proselytizes?

Mormons use the term proselytize to mean nothing more than "teach the gospel." Of course there are always exceptions, but the vast, vast, vast majority of Mormon missionaries are guilty of none of the six behaviors mentioned in the Wikipedia article. Pretty much anyone who has engaged in conversation with them can attest to that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The story is that it is our acquired knowledge and own self that will veil us from a greater knowledge and it is only within our own self we will find that our knowledge is nothing, unless it is sourced from the greater knowledge..

We will be "intellectally" challenged if we compare our learning to their learning. It is not until we let go of what we think we know, that the Learning of the Great Beings can have meaning for us.

It is a submission.

Regards Tony

Do you understand my issue about the dates?

I disagree with "greater" knowledge, "higher" being, "great" beings, etc. Ive met people that would fit the attributes listed you relate to Great beings.

1895 wasnt that long ago. If we dont worship people alive today and people have the same characteristics now as then, what makes them worthy of worship that people with the same attributes bypass our worship today?

Point: I understand Bahai belief. Im asking you this in relation to dates.

1800s is recent. What was special about then (B.C. even) that we are missing today? Did we stop becoming great beings at a certain time period? When? How?

 

[Vinayaka]

If they are breaking the law then they should be reported to both the authorities and the Universal House of Justice. We are forbidden to use these kinds of tactics so if Baha’is are engaging in these things it needs to be reported.

Baha’is doing the wrong thing are never supported by the House of Justice. National Spiritual Assemblies make mistakes too so they sometimes have to be counseled by the House of Justice.

Bahá’í World Centre • P.O. Box 155 • 3100101 Haifa, Israel
Tel: 972 (4) 835 8358 • Fax: 972 (4) 835 8280 • Email: [email protected]

I believe it was reported, but I haven't seen any followup. Legal process in India is slow.

 

[Vinayaka]

Its good that you can share these links for me (or anyone else here) to comment on. The author (anonymous) became a Baha'i and although he no longer considers himself a Baha'i is still very much attached emotionally to the Baha'i Faith. The main issue appears to be that of 'infallability' and 'inerrancy'. This is an issue we have discussed previously. It clearly has been an problem for some Baha'is I have come across and it is only natural that you would see it as being a major problem. As previously explained I avoid the use of both words in an interfaith setting because what we are really talking about is the relationship we have with God through His Manifestation (The Covenant). That has both metaphysical and mystical connotations. For a Baha'i the Covenant should be a source of inspiration, guidance, and strength. I would never use it as debating tool or weapon. It is simply a Baha'i belief. As you believe in Moksha, reincarnation and that all creation is emanated from God, so Baha'is have beliefs about the spiritual nature of man and His Manifestations.

Yes, that's how I read it too. Infallibility being the main thing that makes it fundamentalist, in my view. Fundamentalist does have a pejorative connotation, but I've listened, read, discussed. Not all 4 of the Baha'is here, but some truly remind me of 'discussions' (they're not really discussions at at all, just preaching) I've had with fundamentalist Christians. So although you may beg to differ, I will still use proselytizing, and fundamentalist in describing Baha'i. I also feel totally free to use 'infallibility' to describe a Baha'i belief. Like I said before, one side in a discussion does not get to determine the vocabulary. Of course you're free to avoid these terms.

 

[Vinayaka]

I can see why it happens, especially with Christianity. The New Testament has all kinds of verses that say or imply that Jesus is the only way. Christians make it the infallible, inerrant word of God, so anything that goes against it is false. And since they believe in Satan, everything that goes against the New Testament is from the devil.

I think fundamentalist varies in degrees. A former colleague of mine is a member of a fundamentalist church but never ever preached at me, or said anything demeaning about other faiths. She was a shining example to humanity. But then other colleagues of similar faith couldn't wait for a chance to take a pot shot like telling me 'the truth hurts' or some other nonsense. We have a range of fundamentalism in the Baha'is here. That's normal, for any group.

 

[Vinayaka]

So is the purpose to find points of unity or to show how all the other religions are wrong?

You and I and Carlita and OB all see the answer to that one, lol.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'is believe if religion causes hatred and estrangement between people it is better to be without that religion.

That's debatable. On one of the ex-Bahai discussion boards I visit to get the other POV, Baha'is show up proselytizing, calling the ex-Bahai's liars, living in darkness, and a slate of other rude comments. The mods let it stand because they want to let people see how foolish that is.

The hateful comments there come from Baha'i, not ex-Baha'i, at least 90% of the time.

Anybody with any decency would just let the folks go, recognizing it was a tough decision, and that people have the right to freedom of religion. They don't even seem to have an inkling of how stupid they look.

 

[Vinayaka]

The gospels? The ones that say Jesus rose from the dead? So no you don't agree with the gospels. You have to interpret the gospels according to what the Baha'i Faith teaches. A belief that none of the major Christian denominations hold... That the resurrection was only symbolic and not literal.

Which for all I know, might be true. But that means, like I've said again and again, that Christianity has been wrong from the beginning, because they do believe he rose physically from the grave.

Just a question for you ...don't some, or all, also believe that they too will rise physically from the grave to ascend to heaven?

 

[Vinayaka]

What has happened on this thread when we have offered to look at points of unity.

Often we've disagreed because we don't see them as points of unity? Is there a problem with offering a different POV?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris also state that the following figures were prophets and God as Shiva/Jehovah/Allah has come upon the present personally as a teacher.

But the Brahmakumaris teach about reincarnation and Awareness which the bahai's do not. That is the minor difference I perceive between them.

I credit the Bahai religion as the most progressive Abrahamic religion in terms of promoting world peace and harmony, without any hypocrisy in this regard.

Good to hear from you ajay0, I have not heard about Prajapita Brahmakumaris.

So is this a good link for understanding?

Brahma Kumaris - Brahma Baba, the founder

Regards Tony