All sides think the other side is the confused side. Why not just say 'different POVs' rather than using the 'you're confused' insult.
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How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
All sides think the other side is the confused side. Why not just say 'different POVs' rather than using the 'you're confused' insult.
Fair dinkum mate!
CG is saying the Word in the Holy Books are Confusing and used it twice to say it is confusing for Him.
Loverofhumanity confirmed it is his personal confusion as it is possible to have clairity, albeit it is each of us with our own clarity and offered compassion.
It is not an insult, but encouragent that clarity can be found, albeit His own clarity.
This is the importance of an independent search free of others thoughts, to see with your own eyes.
Regards Tony
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Carlita - That statement made it not possible for me to reply.
Just thought I would let you know that.
My Buddhist view would contain Baha'i thought.
Before I became a Baha'i, I was turned off religion. The main reason was as each said they had the best way of interpretation, that none were compatable with another. The other reason was I wanted to know who got all the money.
I just shut down and walk away from that, sorry always have, my bad as to me it is too sad.
We could look and consider all views.
Regards Tony
I was speaking to my mother about this this morning after staying with family for the holidays. We were discussing politics and her obsession on "whats going on in the government" from religious views to media. Her mindset is so more "there has to be something or someone outside us" controlling us (from aliens-she believes in real life exist), to being watched as we are in a t.v. show such as Jim Carey in The Truman Show.
She could not see outside her views to think, "hmm, IF this is not true, what Positive things (she is negative-focused mind. Being a Buddhist, thats like toxic to a Mind-focused persons brain) What if X is true even though I know Y is true.
My friend was the same way. They are the same age. I thought maybe it has to do with age. Then I saw patterns that didnt have to do with age. A lot of people Literally (and Im generalizing) cannot see beyond their own nose (like Pinnochio type of thing).
That actually bothers me, honestly. I had another friend who stopped talking to me because she didnt want to doubt her faith because of what I had learned four or some odd years practicing Buddhism.
My brother and I are like twins in mindset. He almost got himself fired from his government job because he was finding out things about life and its patters both religiously and politically about people-control. He told his coworkers and made them feel uncomfortable cause he didn't have the courtesy for minding cultural and religious respect for calling people out from their comfort zone. He tried to kill himself by setting himself on fire (long story). I don't have it that bad but I try to keep busy so I won't get paranoid.
People have this but their religion sets them in a healthy comfort zone that if they were threatened they mistake the verbal thread as physical danger. It would shut RF down if this was not true. Probably world peace. No offers. No evangelizing. No shakabuku. Nothing like that.
I wasnt raised to be open minded (and bias, so said, in my open mindedness). I was raised quite the opposite. But Im an egalitarian, as they call it in politics. I honestly dont like ""comfort zones".
If I were to think as if I were bahai on an issue, Id probably share differing ways bahalluah can help others while keeping humility in my conversation. If I were a theist, Id take a vow of poverty and just serve god. If I were Hindu, I wouldnt be on this thread. If I were Muslim instead of being involved in ISIS as so I was lectured earlier, Id be saying prayers to god for peace and his blessings.
Of course, IF. Im not these things so I cannot compromise my beliefs, ethics, and worldview but if I wanted to understand what its like as a murderer to help him if she asks, I would need and want to come up to her level for real talk. We arent changing each others views. She is human and so am I.
These things people Can do if they Wanted to. If you (you/you all/3rd person) are interested the people would be more open. If not, of course they cant.
I gave up on saying to my mother "but some Muslims are Not like that." Its not inherit. Its literally something you want to do.
In Buddhism, we learn to work with our mind. We MUST go out of our comfort zones-no god, no money, no pleasure, no family, no pride (no attachments). In by doing so you can relate to these things without depending on them as self.
If you never heard of god, if no one had, we would still exist. God isnt independent of our existence. Its all mental. (Not as in crazy; youre not crazy) I know what its like to believe in god. Its an interesting feeling but it makes people more servants mistaken for humbleness.
But any work that deals with others you have to set your self aside for the benefit of others.
A belief based on helping others has no reservations. It IS compromise. You have to or what you say is a contradiction unless you come from your shoes to understand it from another.
If you cant, its not unity and peace. Its a comfort zone. Nothing inherently wrong with it. Just unproductive if you want Greater world peace.
More of a ramble. No need to reply.
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Thank you Carlita you have a great heart, I see a heart that will be given to God, albeit in the way you choose to do this.
The Humility is to know we are servants, that being a servant is the greatest gift God has given us.
Muhammd brought that to humanity after Christ showed our personal salvation, that Salvation lays in acceptance of God in His Messengers. Muhummad taught us submission to God.
This is the bounty in the Great Beings, each Message giving us strong foundations in what we must acheive to know and Love God.
If one can not submit in all humility to the God that gave us life, we can not be true servants to Humanity, we would still be doing it for levels of self. We will not find release from self.
Regards Tony
Thank you for your response Carlita. In the context of this thread it is uplifting and helpful to consider Buddha's words and teachings through His life and practice.
In many respects Buddhism is a more accessible and comprehensible religion than Hinduism. Although there is uncertainty about the origins of the words attributed to the Buddha, there is a significant body of sacred writings that was passed down through oral traditions for about 400 years until they were first written down.
I have in my possession a publication simply titled 'The Teachings of Buddha' compiled by Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai or the society for the promotion of Buddhism.
The Teaching of Buddha - Japanese/English Edition | BDK America
I obtained a copy when I stayed in a hotel in Kyoto with the permission of the management of the Hotel where my wife and I stayed when we travelled with her relatives. In every room there was a copy of the Buddha's Teachings, just as there is a copy of the bible in many hotels/motels in my country. I will occasionally refer to Japan as I speak of Buddhism because that is part of my connection to this beautiful religion.
Perhaps it is very difficult for each of us to step outside of our worldview, but let is consider as objectively as possible who was the Buddha and what did He teach? In a sense we want to avoid having either a Buddhist or Baha'i perspective but to be able to see things as they really are. I'm sure that is what the Buddha would want us to do, would you not agree?
I'm a novice when it comes to studying Buddhism which is clear for all to see lest I give the impression of being more.
You have provided me with a long post to look at but then that is appropriate given the weighty issues you have considered. I'll try to find the time to respond to at least some of the points raised. Thank you for your well considered post.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
You'd have to choose. If you consided others views, how can you do that that is not surface level knowledge if you feel you cant answer questions outside bahai view?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I did want to go to a bahai temple. I dont like surface level knowledge. My heart and body hurts when I see no real learning: Comfort zone knowledge. Probably thats how our societies makes us feel (to those who dont, CZ). I see it when I hang out with my Deaf friends and in the Deaf community. The LGBT Community and african american community down south east of the states.World peace is more "I visit your side and you visit mine." I mean, I cant go to almost 90% of the worlds countries because legally I must know the language and culture first. I cant just say, "hey, I accept your views as yours and mine as mine." Nope. That doesnt fly for world peace. I cant even become a Canadian citizen and thousand of Americans go there daily to Canada's edge but cant cross on the other line to step on its soil.
Goes beyond that. (Oh, I forgot. Must have money
)
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First in regards to the mind, there can be no doubt and disagreement that the Buddha taught self-control, discipline, and restraint. Through training the mind in this way the emotions eventually follow.
Buddha's Teachings are also clear about compassion and loving kindness.
These Teachings are entirely consistent with Baha'i Teachings and although I could provide many quotes from the Baha'i writings to reinforce this point, I will not do so unless you ask. There may be some confusion with the heart when we are talking about our higher and lower selves. The lower self needs to be submission to the mind which requires right thought, action, and speech as a buttress. The high self is the realm of mysticism, inspiration and for a Baha'i communion with God.
Buddha speaks of what we call the lower nature or human defilement. Buddha teaches how these cause suffering and prescribes the remedy so we become pure in heart and free ourselves from such afflictions.
There are two kinds of worldly passions that defile and cover the purity of Buddha-nature.
The first is the passion for analysis and discussion by which people become confused in judgement. The second is the passion for emotional experience by which people's values become confused.
Both delusions of reasoning and delusions of practice can be thought of as a classification of all human defilements, but really there are two original worldly predicaments in their bases. The first is ignorance, and the second is desire.
The delusions of reasoning are based upon ignorance, and the delusions of practice are based upon desire, so that the two sets are really one set after all, and together they are the source of all unhappiness.
If people are ignorant they cannot reason correctly and safely. As they yield to a desire for existence, graspings, clingings and attachments to everything inevitably follow. It is this constant hunger for every pleasant thing seen and heard that leads people into the delusions of habit. Some people even yield to the desire for the death of the body.
From these primary sources all greed, anger, foolishness, misunderstanding, resentment, jealously, flattery, deceit, pride, contempt, inebriety, selfishness, have their generations and appearances.
2. Greed rises from wrong ideas of satisfaction; anger rises from wrong ideas concerning the state of one's affairs and surroundings; foolishness rises from the inability to judge what correct conduct is.
These three -- greed, anger, and foolishness -- are called the three fires of the world. The fire of greed consumes those who have lost their true minds through greed; the fire of anger consumes those who have lost their true minds through anger; the fire of foolishness consumes those who have lost their true minds through their failure to hear and to heed the teachings of Buddha.
Indeed, this world is burning up with its many and various fires. There are fires of greed, fires of anger, fires of foolishness, fires of infatuation and egoism, fires of decrepitude, sickness and death, fires of sorrow, lamentation, suffering and agony. Everywhere these fires are raging. They not only burn the self, but also cause others to suffer and lead them into wrong acts of body, speech and mind. From the wounds that are caused by these fires there issues a pus that infects and poisons those who approach it, and leads them into evil paths.
3. Greed rises in want of satisfaction; anger rises in want of dissatisfaction; and foolishness rises from impure thoughts. The evil of greed has little impurity but is hard to remove; the evil of anger has more impurity but is easy to remove; the evil of foolishness has much impurity and is very hard to overcome.
Therefore, people should quench these fires whenever an wherever they appear by correctly judging as to what can give true satisfaction, by strictly controlling the mind in the face of the unsatisfactory things of life, and by ever recalling Buddha's teaching of good-will and kindness. If the mind is filled with wise and pure and unselfish thoughts, there will be no place for worldly passions to take root.
4. Greed, anger and foolishness are like a fever. If a man gets this fever, even if he lies in a comfortable room, he will suffer and be tormented by sleeplessness.
Those who have no such fever have no difficulty in sleeping peacefully, even on a cold winter night, on the ground with only a thin covering of leaves, or on a hot summer's night in a small closed room.
These three -- greed, anger and foolishness -- are, therefore, the sources of all human woe. To get rid of these sources of woe, one must observe the precepts, must practice concentration of mind and must have wisdom. Observance of the precepts will remove the impurities of greed; right concentration of mind will remove the impurities of anger; and wisdom will remove the impurities of foolishness.
http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf/theteachingofbuddha.pdf
pages 81-84
You would assume that with the wisdom of Baha'u'llah that man is not called far from their comfort Zone. God's Word finds each of our comfort zones, yours may be belief in God.
You may find God takes you far from your current comfort Zone.
Its our choices that acheive this.
Regards Tony
World peace is more "I visit your side and you visit mine." I mean, I cant go to almost 90% of the worlds countries because legally I must know the language and culture first. I cant just say, "hey, I accept your views as yours and mine as mine." Nope. That doesnt fly for world peace. I cant even become a Canadian citizen with that phrase and thousand of Americans go there daily to Canada's edge but cant cross on the other line to step on its soil.
Goes beyond that. (Oh, I forgot. Must have money
Faith achieves it all.
Regards Tony
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I'll be back to comment.
I have the same book. I found out it is Pure Land Buddhism. I went to their temple and the owner of the property said its set up like westerners view (theistic view of Amida Buddha and Pure Land seen a kind of heaven) The language in the book. Light read. In The Buddha's Words is good Theravada view. I got both book and audio and almost finished reading the whole book of suttas. Mahayana has a lot of commentary books with its sutras. Theravada not so much outside Pali suttas.
It is very important to understand that Buddhism arose as problems had developed with Hinduism and the way it was practiced. There needed to be much more of an emphasis on practical considerations rather than obscure metaphysics. I believe that is the context of Buddha's words as He speaks of Mari, Brahma, and Baki-Brahma. That particular sutta you have provided I believe is one of the more challenging one from the Teachings of Buddha and can only be properly understood considering the historic context from where Buddhism arose.
When my wife and I travelled to Hokkaido and stayed with an artist, he referred us to how Buddha identified with God. I think the verses he referenced were these:
"1. Common people believe that Buddha was born a prince and learned the way to Enlightenment as a mendicant; actually, Buddha has always existed in the world which is without beginning or end.
As the Eternal Buddha, He has known all people and applied all methods of relief.
There is no falsity in the Eternal Dharma which Buddha taught, for He knows all things in the world as they are, and He teaches them to all people.
Indeed, it is very difficult to understand the world as it is, for, although it seems true, it is not, and, although it seems false, it is not. Ignorant people can not know the truth concerning the world.
Buddha alone truly and fully knows the world as it is and He never says that it is true or false, or good or evil. He simply portrays the world as it is.
What Buddha does teach is this: "That all people should cultivate roots of virtue according to their natures, their deeds, and their beliefs." This teaching transcends all affirmation and negation of this world."
So these teachings start to sound a little like John 1:1-3 where Christ is identified with God, in a similar manner that Buddha is identified with God the All-Knowing.
The Buddha's writings are full of illusion and allusion and refer to illusion and allusion:
"2. Buddha teaches not only through words, but also through His life. Although His life is endless, in order to awaken greedy people, He uses the expedient of death.
"While a certain physician was away from home, his children accidentally took some poison. When the physician returned, he noticed their sickness and prepared an antidote. Some of the children who were not seriously poisoned accepted the medicine and were cured, but others were so seriously affected that they refused to take the medicine.
The physician, prompted by his paternal love for his children, decided on an extreme method to press the cure upon them. He said to the children: "I must go off on a long journey. I am old and may pass away any day. If I am with you I can care for you, but if I should pass away, you will become worse and worse. If you hear of my death, I implore you to take the antidote and be cured of this subtle poisoning." Then he went on the long journey. After a time, he sent a messenger to his children to inform them of his death.
The children, receiving the message, were deeply affected by the thought of their father's death and by the realization that they would no longer have the benefit of his benevolent care. Recalling his parting request, in a feeling of sorrow and helplessness, they took the medicine and recovered.
People must not condemn the deception of this father-physician. Buddha is like that father. He, too, employs the fiction of life and death to save people who are entangled in the bondage of desires."
http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf/theteachingofbuddha.pdf
pages 21- 24
There is no doubt the many Buddhist emphasise Buddha's teachings as atheistic and I do not deny that for one minute. However not all Buddhists see it that way.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Let me ask
Did I tell you that you are personally deluted in your belief in god and that seperating yourself from your delusion you reach enlightenment?
Everyone has comfort zones. I just find it interesting many theist dont see it like that. The Buddha calls it ignorance.
Did I say ever say The Buddha will take you out of your comfort zone?
Last question, Am I believing a lie for you to suggest god needs to do such a thing?
Did I tell you that you are personally deluted in your belief in god and that seperating yourself from your delusion you reach enlightenment?
Everyone has comfort zones. I just find it interesting many theist dont see it like that. The Buddha calls it ignorance.
Did I say ever say The Buddha will take you out of your comfort zone?
Last question, Am I believing a lie for you to suggest god needs to do such a thing?
World peace is more "I visit your side and you visit mine." I mean, I cant go to almost 90% of the worlds countries because legally I must know the language and culture first. I cant just say, "hey, I accept your views as yours and mine as mine." Nope. That doesnt fly for world peace. I cant even become a Canadian citizen with that phrase and thousand of Americans go there daily to Canada's edge but cant cross on the other line to step on its soil.
Goes beyond that. (Oh, I forgot. Must have money
Why not simply visit a Baha'i devotional meeting in your locality.
Like Buddhism, it is people that make up the religion, not the physical space we call a temple.
I must have missed that. I find CG one of the least confused people on here.
You do not have to. We do not have the right to make that Judgement.
The Great Beings do. They are Truth.
I know not what is in you as you do not know what is in me, but what we show to each other.
Regards Tony
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I was trying to get you to see you said the same thing just I asked you directly. You have a more indirect approach. Same thing just different ways of asking. The more indirect it is, the more I type.
That is entirly up to you to decide, you share, I share, two thoughts of mind collided and who knows what is sparked if our intent is pure.
Regards Tony