How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus did say Baptize each other with water, but 'water' is a symbolic expression.


I quote's recorded words of Abdulbaha on this:


In the Gospel according to St John, Christ has said: ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.’ 1 The priests have interpreted this into meaning that baptism is necessary for salvation. In another Gospel it is said: ‘He shall baptizeyou with the Holy Ghost and with fire’. 2 82
Thus the water of baptism and the fire are one! It cannot mean that the ‘water’ spoken of is physical water, for it is the direct opposite of ‘fire’, and one destroys the other. When in the Gospels, Christ speaks of ‘water’, He means that which causes life, for without water no worldly creature can live—mineral, vegetable, animal and man, one and all, depend upon water for their very being. Yes, the latest scientific discoveries prove to us that even mineral has some form of life, and that it also needs water for its existence.
Water is the cause of life, and when Christ speaks of water, He is symbolizing that which is the cause of Everlasting Life.
This life-giving water of which He speaks is like unto fire, for it is none other than the Love of God, and this love means life to our souls.
By the fire of the Love of God the veil is burnt which separates us from the Heavenly Realities, and with clear vision we are enabled to struggle onward and upward, ever progressing in the paths of virtue and holiness, and becoming the means of light to the world.
There is nothing greater or more blessed than the Love of God! It gives healing to the sick, balm to the wounded, joy and consolation to the whole world, and through it alone can man attain Life Everlasting. The essence of all religions is the Love of God, and it is the foundation of all the sacred teachings.
It was the Love of God that led Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that strengthened Joseph in Egypt and gave to Moses courage and patience. 83
Through the Love of God, Christ was sent into the world with His inspiring example of a perfect life of self-sacrifice and devotion, bringing to men the message of Eternal Life. It was the Love of God that gave Muḥammad power to bring the Arabs from a state of animal degradation to a loftier state of existence.
God’s Love it was that sustained the Báb and brought him to his supreme sacrifice, and made his bosom the willing target for a thousand bullets.
Finally, it was the Love of God that gave to the East Bahá’u’lláh, and is now sending the light of His teaching far into the West, and from Pole to Pole.
Thus I exhort each of you, realizing its power and beauty, to sacrifice all your thoughts, words and actions to bring the knowledge of the Love of God into every heart.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 81-83

What was water symbolic for....is it based on something that actually happened? If so what? Is it based on something that spiritually happened, if so, what?

What is love if its not based on anything real, just symbolic events and symbolic rituals?

What makes christianity true when all the literal parts of scripture are all symbolized?

What is a symbol and adjective (say love or compassion) when they are not based on anything (no real event nor culture and no noun to which the adjective describes)?

Can god exist only among symbols?

 

[siti]

That Christ did not do a ritual with Holy Spirit and Fire, we can conclude that he Approved by allowing John to Baptise Him of Water, that Baptisim include all these elements.

No Tony - you have completely missed the point here - according to the Christian scriptural tradition, Christ did indeed perform a literal ritual baptism with holy spirit and with fire - at Pentecost - and I believe that translates in the Church to the sacrament of confirmation. Not saying I agree with all this in principle, but the Baha'i reading of scripture is selective and disingenuous and you simply can't have it both ways. And the point you are trying in vain to support is @loverofhumanity 's false claim that Christ said nothing about rituals in worship - he commanded his disciples to baptize, he taught them how to pray...etc. etc. The claim that Jesus did not institute any ritual or ceremonial aspects of worship is patently false, yet You (three of you have now weighed in on this) persist in attempting to shore up his false claim by distraction and prevarication. And once again, you prove the point I made earlier - that this behaviour seems to be part and parcel of the Baha'i psyche - if the facts speak against the belief, twist the interpretation until it seems to fit. Patchwork can be skillfully done and pleasing to the eye or rough-shod and tatty. Guess which one I think this argument against Christian rituals fits best?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

if the facts speak against the belief, twist the interpretation until it seems to fit. Patchwork can be skillfully done and pleasing to the eye or rough-shod and tatty.

These are always the accusations used against the Giver of a new Message from God by those who hold the past Messages.

History has shown this to be so.

I will just add that Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah (All the Great Beings) did not twist facts, they are the Facts.

If we do not see the Scriptures of Love and Justice in them, we have twisted the Facts. It is that simple.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

if the facts speak against the belief, twist the interpretation until it seems to fit.

These are always the accusations used against the Giver of a new Message from God by those who hold the past Messages.

History has shown this to be so.

I will just add that Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah (All the Great Beings) did not twist facts, they are the Facts.

If we do not see the Scriptures of Love and Justice in them, we have twisted the Facts. It is that simple.

Regards Tony

And if that doesn't work try deflection - again, and again, and again!

This is precisely the kind of frustrating exchange that put me right off earlier in the thread. It goes like this:

1. Baha'i makes a dubious or patently false statement (e.g. Jesus did not mention any rituals)
2. Someone points with evidence that this is incorrect (e.g. Jesus did mention the ritual of baptism)
3. Baha'i then suggests a re-interpretation (e.g. baptism was symbolic not literal and it was really about love)
4. Someone points out that this re-interpretation also can't be right (e.g. because Jesus was literally baptized and his disciples performed literal baptisms)
5. Baha'i restates the original (now demonstrably absurd) statement (e.g. Jesus did not mention any rituals)
6. Someone suggests that Baha'i is ignoring evidence/twisting the facts
   
7. Baha'i deflects attention (e.g. by suggesting that people didn't believe Jesus or Baha'u'llah either)
8. Someone walks away bemused with much scratching and shaking of the head.
9. Baha'i concludes by claiming the re-interpretation to be true even though that was nothing to do with the original claim (e.g. there - see - I told you it was all really about love)
10. Someone scratches the head again saying 'no it wasn't - it was about whether Jesus said anything about rituals - wasn't it?

Like I said - as entertainment it wears a bit thin after a while - but I actually think it is an illustrative example of how religious "truth" is developed in the hearts and minds of the faithful. Its how stories about a fictional King David in the Psalms became prophecies about the life and death of Christ - for example. Its the same process. Its how religions are born. Fascinating! And eye-opening!

 

[Truthseeker]

What are the verifiable facts regarding the Resurrection?

The answer to this question, at least until any solid historical facts are presented, is that there are none. There are no solid facts regarding the Resurrection, other than that Christians believe that it was bodily and that Bahá’ís believe that it was spiritual. In such an absence, anything said on the matter is merely speculation. No one is right and no one is wrong. That is all. Christians have their belief, Bahá’ís have ours.

Logically someone has to be wrong. As Baha'is we believe the Christians to be wrong. The Baha'i Faith uses reason, remember?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Like I said - as entertainment it wears a bit thin after a while

I would suggest if that is all you are after, then forget Faith.

Faith is far from entertainment. The example of Jesus and the Bab should hint to what True Faith Means.

Live Faith and yes, you do become the entertainment for many people.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Its the same process. Its how religions are born. Fascinating! And eye-opening!

What it shows is that each person united in the Spirit has an alternate way of expressing that materially.

The Bible is a good example of this.

The Gospels are a unity in Diversity of understanding (as the Gospels differ), that was never meant to be a division, but unite all in a Harmony of Sprit. In this Spirit we discuss and come to new understandings and ways of expressing oneself.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

I would suggest if that is all you are after, then forget Faith.

Faith is far from entertainment. The example of Jesus and the Bab should hint to what True Faith Means.

Live Faith and yes, you do become the entertainment for many people.

Regards Tony

Tony - this is an internet discussion forum - of course its about entertainment. And as for the example of Jesus and the Bab - do you mean that faith means getting yourself dead in your mid-thirties?

 

[siti]

In this Spirit we discuss and come to new understandings and ways of expressing oneself.

Except that You (Baha'is) don't - you just repeat counterfactual statements about other religions and scriptural traditions in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence and deflect attention from the gaping flaws in your arguments - how is that promoting "unity in diversity"?

 

[Vinayaka]

Except that You (Baha'is) don't - you just repeat counterfactual statements about other religions and scriptural traditions in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence and deflect attention from the gaping flaws in your arguments - how is that promoting "unity in diversity"?

I gave up for good about 2 weeks back, finally coming to my senses after reading "Those of you who continue this discussion have vastly underestimated the conditioning (word used was brainwashing) of the fundamentalist.

Nothing any of us can say will ever change anything here. It is what it is, and you have eloquently summed it up nicely today in your posts. I encourage you to get out ans stay out.

 

[siti]

I gave up for good about 2 weeks back, finally coming to my senses after reading "Those of you who continue this discussion have vastly underestimated the conditioning (word used was brainwashing) of the fundamentalist.

Nothing any of us can say will ever change anything here. It is what it is, and you have eloquently summed it up nicely today in your posts. I encourage you to get out ans stay out.

Thing is, I'm not after changing anything - my persistence is more about probing - how far can a reasoned argument be pushed in the face of abject credulity on the opposite side? I am (currently) fascinated by this ability to push stark facts into the haze of the background and deliberately - and quite conscientiously it seems - mold evidence to fit a pre-established 'credo' whilst at the same time purporting to foster the 'independent investigation of truth'. Its all the more fascinating to me because I was once myself completely immersed in a fundamentalist Christian group - and even as I grappled my way out I still wondered how one (at least averagely intelligent human being) could have been so easily 'duped'. And how were the early Christians so soundly convinced of such a preposterous story that they not only gave their lives for it but established a religious tradition that encircled the entire globe and lasted almost as long as all recorded history that came before it? The Baha'i faith is certainly not in that league by any means - but it might be a reasonable parallel to what was happening in the nascent "Christendom" of the 1st and 2nd centuries.

I am not here to be entertained any more - neither to change anyone's beliefs - but to learn. But as a scientist, I just can't help myself, I have to prod and poke and dissect and see what happens. Science is often tedious work and I feel privileged to be part of what must rank as one the most tedious religious debates of all internet forum history. But I think I am still learning - and with an occasional 'eureka' moment when my incredulity about their credulity suddenly dissolves into some crystal clarity about the human propensity for self-deceit. I'm learning about them, I'm learning about religion and I'm learning about me. I get that most people wouldn't feel that need - but its definitely helping me in ways that the Baha'is in this thread could never imagine. But I thank them for it nevertheless!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except that You (Baha'is) don't - you just repeat counterfactual statements about other religions and scriptural traditions in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence and deflect attention from the gaping flaws in your arguments - how is that promoting "unity in diversity"?

They are the new ideas for the new age. Change has never been easy.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am not here to be entertained any more - neither to change anyone's beliefs - but to learn. But as a scientist, I just can't help myself, I have to prod and poke and dissect and see what happens.

Well done.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I gave up for good about 2 weeks back, finally coming to my senses after reading "Those of you who continue this discussion have vastly underestimated the conditioning (word used was brainwashing) of the fundamentalist.

Nothing any of us can say will ever change anything here. It is what it is, and you have eloquently summed it up nicely today in your posts. I encourage you to get out ans stay out.

It may be to gain an understanding of this part of your journey, that you will have to be reincarnated into the Abrahamic line of Faiths.

But, it may be, you have grasped Fundamental beleifs, but are just yet to acknowledge the fact!

We wish you well, always.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

They are the new ideas for the new age. Change has never been easy.

On the contrary, this is not a new age thing, they are not new ideas (we've had prolonged exchanges on that subject already in this thread) and change is the only thing that comes naturally to every existing thing. Baha'ism is anachronistic and stuck fast in the mire of 19th century misinterpretations of hereditary traditions. It is not particularly responsive to the changing nature of society - as its views on homosexuality and the all-male composition of its governing body - for a couple of examples - clearly demonstrate.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

On the contrary, this is not a new age thing, they are not new ideas (we've had prolonged exchanges on that subject already in this thread) and change is the only thing that comes naturally to every existing thing. Baha'ism is anachronistic and stuck fast in the mire of 19th century misinterpretations of hereditary traditions. It is not particularly responsive to the changing nature of society - as its views on homosexuality and the all-male composition of its governing body - for a couple of examples - clearly demonstrate.

I would offer again that change has never been easy especially when people see no need to do so.

Some things are not subject to change.

Total Submission even harder.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

On the contrary, this is not a new age thing, they are not new ideas (we've had prolonged exchanges on that subject already in this thread) and change is the only thing that comes naturally to every existing thing. Baha'ism is anachronistic and stuck fast in the mire of 19th century misinterpretations of hereditary traditions. It is not particularly responsive to the changing nature of society - as its views on homosexuality and the all-male composition of its governing body - for a couple of examples - clearly demonstrate.

It goes above ideas as we are still unaware of where these ideas come from.

What is being said is that Baha'u'llah brought Gods Faith for this age and as such, it has a body of ideas that will be found in no other place or in any other single Revelation.

You will not find another single person that has collectively given these as a guide to humanity. Abdul'baha was asked what new principals had been brought by Baha'u'llah, this was that answer;

“You have asked me what new principles have been revealed by Him,” said Abdu’l-Baha, acknowledging the question he was asked. “I will speak to you concerning the special teachings of Baha'u'llah,” he continued. “He has revealed certain new teachings which are not found in any of the sacred Books of former times."

Abdul'baha then set forth a dozen new principles.

1. A fundamental teaching of Baha’u’llah is the oneness of the world of humanity.

2. Another new principle revealed by Baha’u’llah is the injunction to investigate truth.

3. Baha’u’llah has announced that the foundation of all the religions of God is one … This teaching is new and specialized to this Manifestation.

4. He sets forth a new principle for this day in the announcement that religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and agreement among mankind.

5. Furthermore, He proclaims that religion must be in harmony with science and reason … The harmony of religious belief with reason is a new vista which Baha’u’llah has opened for the soul of man.

6. He establishes the equality of man and woman. This is peculiar to the teachings of Baha’u’llah, for all other religions have placed man above woman.

7. A new religious principle is that prejudice and fanaticism—whether sectarian, denominational, patriotic or political—are destructive to the foundation of human solidarity.

8. Universal peace is assured by Baha’u’llah as a fundamental accomplishment of the religion of God — that peace shall prevail among nations, governments and peoples, among religions, races and all conditions of mankind. This is one of the special characteristics of the Word of God revealed in this Manifestation.

9. Baha’u’llah declares that all mankind should attain knowledge and acquire an education. This is a necessary principle of religious belief and observance, characteristically new in this dispensation.

10. He has set forth the solution and provided the remedy for the economic question. No religious Books of the past Prophets speak of this important human problem.

11. He has ordained and established the … international House of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.

12. As to the most great characteristic of the revelation of Baha’u’llah, a specific teaching not given by any of the Prophets of the past: It is the ordination and appointment of the Center of the Covenant.

– Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 454–455.

Regards Tony

 

[arthra]

Logically someone has to be wrong. As Baha'is we believe the Christians to be wrong. The Baha'i Faith uses reason, remember?

This guy looks familiar! I've seen him before in an earlier incarnation or maybe it was another forum!

 

[siti]

It goes above ideas as we are still unaware of where these ideas come from.

What is being said is that Baha'u'llah brought Gods Faith for this age and as such, it has a body of ideas that will be found in no other place or in any other single Revelation.

You will not find another single person that has collectively given these as a guide to humanity. Abdul'baha was asked what new principals had been brought by Baha'u'llah, this was that answer;

“You have asked me what new principles have been revealed by Him,” said Abdu’l-Baha, acknowledging the question he was asked. “I will speak to you concerning the special teachings of Baha'u'llah,” he continued. “He has revealed certain new teachings which are not found in any of the sacred Books of former times."

Abdul'baha then set forth a dozen new principles.

1. A fundamental teaching of Baha’u’llah is the oneness of the world of humanity.

2. Another new principle revealed by Baha’u’llah is the injunction to investigate truth.

3. Baha’u’llah has announced that the foundation of all the religions of God is one … This teaching is new and specialized to this Manifestation.

4. He sets forth a new principle for this day in the announcement that religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and agreement among mankind.

5. Furthermore, He proclaims that religion must be in harmony with science and reason … The harmony of religious belief with reason is a new vista which Baha’u’llah has opened for the soul of man.

6. He establishes the equality of man and woman. This is peculiar to the teachings of Baha’u’llah, for all other religions have placed man above woman.

7. A new religious principle is that prejudice and fanaticism—whether sectarian, denominational, patriotic or political—are destructive to the foundation of human solidarity.

8. Universal peace is assured by Baha’u’llah as a fundamental accomplishment of the religion of God — that peace shall prevail among nations, governments and peoples, among religions, races and all conditions of mankind. This is one of the special characteristics of the Word of God revealed in this Manifestation.

9. Baha’u’llah declares that all mankind should attain knowledge and acquire an education. This is a necessary principle of religious belief and observance, characteristically new in this dispensation.

10. He has set forth the solution and provided the remedy for the economic question. No religious Books of the past Prophets speak of this important human problem.

11. He has ordained and established the … international House of Justice shall be appointed and organized from the Houses of Justice of the whole world, and all the world shall come under its administration.

12. As to the most great characteristic of the revelation of Baha’u’llah, a specific teaching not given by any of the Prophets of the past: It is the ordination and appointment of the Center of the Covenant.

– Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 454–455.

Regards Tony

Here we go - round and round the village...as we have done before...

see posts 11785, 11863 and 11922...none of these were new ideas...some were well-established in antiquity - others more eloquently developed humanistic elements of the age of reason but predating Baha'u'llah by decades - note especially that Robert Owen had almost all of these in his writings years before Baha'u'llah scratched a single divinely inspired character. Owen's ideas were not new - but he did compile these enlightenment ideas into a manifesto for living in the 'new age' of the 19th century industrial and rapidly globalizing world. You can excuse, deflect and deny all you like - but the fact is that Baha'u'llah's "principles' were far from new.

But, the critical point here is that once again you prove my point by repeating (for the umpteenth time) a claim that has been very clearly shown to be false already...attempting to establish "truth" by repetition.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here we go - round and round the village...as we have done before...

see posts 11785, 11863 and 11922...none of these were new ideas...some were well-established in antiquity - others more eloquently developed humanistic elements of the age of reason but predating Baha'u'llah by decades - note especially that Robert Owen had almost all of these in his writings years before Baha'u'llah scratched a single divinely inspired character. Owen's ideas were not new - but he did compile these enlightenment ideas into a manifesto for living in the 'new age' of the 19th century industrial and rapidly globalizing world. You can excuse, deflect and deny all you like - but the fact is that Baha'u'llah's "principles' were far from new.

But, the critical point here is that once again you prove my point by repeating (for the umpteenth time) a claim that has been very clearly shown to be false already...attempting to establish "truth" by repetition.

Again you have no considered where those ideas came from and what inspired them.

I can tell you it was Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah can inspire who He wishes, when He wishes. He did not need to be in this world to do so.

All the Great Beings are this Spirit that gives us life and Inspiration.

It was the Bab and Baha'u'llah that was commissioned by God to give the Message in this age, none other. All other inspiration comes via this Spirit.

So with that we have differing views that we can say we agree to disagre and I wish you all the best in life.

Regards Tony