How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Christ did not institute any rituals. He spoke about love and walking a spiritual path.

There is also Baptism by fire so why is that not practised? Clearly because these thijgs are not meant literally.

Youre talking about politics. Communion, I'll use that, is practiced by the Jews and Christians alike. Repentence as well.

These things were "instituted" by god not by, what you call, man. To these religions, they are god made traditions and oral commandments. Observant Jews and many christians have traditions that came from god.

The physical Church has Nothing to do with it.

All sacraments are literal. You are looking at material literal. If that be the case, there is no such thing as god. Just books written About him but not from him.

If its not literal, what is the symbolisms based on?

Real/literal events or imaginary ones?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thats not the point. You are litterally putting people down for using rituals all because you both express your love for god differently.

I disagree with your opinions. You can say the same thing without putting people down for following their god given traditions.

Rituals are not people. If racism was popular and I tried to point out its falsehood then would I be degrading people who promoted it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Rituals are not people. If racism was popular and I tried to point out its falsehood then would I be degrading people who promoted it?

Actually, yes. Another brief example, you say homosexuallity is bad, you are targetting the persons identity not an isolated act. If people are promoting racism and you degraded it, yes, you would be degrading them.

People identify personally with their ethics, politics, religion, and self. I cant compare using rituals to honor god and racism. One has to do with love the other hate.

I see no connection

 

[loverofhumanity]

I would never call someone else's communion with god part of their imagination. I know I am bias myself but Im speaking more from respecting other people's more so than judging whats correct and what isnt. I find that silly in spirituality.



Bahai doesnt say what is truth and what is not. Its your opinion. Your belief. Your faith. If all of you believe in the same god, bahai is part of this division too.

No one is special.

You forget. I was a most astute catholic in my school. I worshipped as a true catholic. I am in a position as a devout former Catholic to tell about my intense experience with the sacraments. I went to confession, was baptised, had holy communion and went to mass regularly and confession.

I now know these things to be pure vain imaginings and I can make this judgement as a many year catholic. This is based on personal experience not the reading of any books.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Actually, yes. Another brief example, you say homosexuallity is bad, you are targetting the persons identity not an isolated act. If people are promoting racism and you degraded it, yes, you would be degrading them.

People identify personally with their ethics, politicz, religion, and self. I cant compare using rituals to honor god and racism. One has to do with love the other hate.

I see no connection

So we should allow racism to thrive?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You forget. I was a most astute catholic in my school. I worshipped as a true catholic. I am in a position as a devout former Catholic to tell about my intense experience with the sacraments. I went to confession, was baptised, had holy communion and went to mass regularly and confession.

I now know these things to be pure vain imaginings and I can make this judgement as a many year catholic. This is based on personal experience not the reading of any books.

I was catholic too. For some reason, I kept my love for the Church, its sacraments, its truth, withiut needing to believe In it nor follow it. But I came in as an adult and catholicsm changed as the popes changed. A lot of older catholics tell me they werent allowed to read their bibles. I was shocked.

Everyone experiences christ differently in the Church. Id assume that you would understand the sacraments as given by god regardless of how you feel about them now. I still love my ex but we werent an ideal couple and broke of early. She is married and has two children. Being away from her in a relationship wouldnt change my feelings for her. Likewise with the Church.

Im sorry you see rituals so crudely. I know some Churches are strict than others. Dominican ones are. But I wasnt raised in one so Im glad I have no indoctrination issues. It damages people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So we should allow racism to thrive?

How do you compare racism to using rituals to show love for god?

I dont have harsh views in people just their behavior. If we can stop racism without addressing and changing people, Im all for it. We have a lot of racism here. A lot of the older ones finally live side by side with each other.

They are still racist. Thats not the issue. They dont Act on it. Everyone is happy.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was catholic too. For some reason, I kept my love for the Church, its sacraments, its truth, withiut needing to believe In it nor follow it. But I came in as an adult and catholicsm changed as the popes changed. A lot of older catholics tell me they werent allowed to read their bibles. I was shocked.

Everyone experiences christ differently in the Church. Id assume that you would understand the sacraments as given by god regardless of how you feel about them now. I still love my ex but we werent an ideal couple and broke of early. She is married and has two children. Being away from her in a relationship wouldnt change my feelings for her. Likewise with the Church.

Im sorry you see rituals so crudely. I know some Churchesbare stricg than others. Dominican ones are. But I wasnt raised in one so Im glad I have no indoctrination issues. It damages people.

People are free to follow and walk their own path. And they should.

With me personally, the thing that had most impact on my life was the kindness and love of Jesus. I loved His counsels and things like the besutitudes. These are the things that meant the most to me and affected my life the most. The rituals didn’t leave any impression on me or the sacraments.

 

[loverofhumanity]

How do you compare racism to using rituals to show love for god?

I dont have harsh views in people just their behavior. If we can stop racism without addressing and changing people, Im all for it. We have a lot of racism here. A lot of the older ones finally live side by side with each other.

They are still racist. Thats not the issue. They dont Act on it. Everyone is happy.

Each to his/her own.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People are free to follow and walk their own path. And they should.

With me personally, the thing that had most impact on my life was the kindness and love of Jesus. I loved His counsels and things like the besutitudes. These are the things that meant the most to me and affected my life the most. The rituals didn’t leave any impression on me or the sacraments.

Do you understand How it would with your peers?

Not everyone can be catholic. But I notice ex catholics put down the Church. I know rituals dont work with you but that does not mean they arent from god. Christianity is a cultural and communal faith. Very few deminations I know symbolize or disregard it competely. They just change the terms. Communion not Eucharistic meal. Repentence not confession. Born again rather than saved by baptism. Sinner's prayer rather tha verbal conviction (confirmation) of faith.

The only three that isnt expicit in the bible is the law of annointing the sick, marriage, and I forgot the other.

But its a tradition. Dont forget your traditions, the apostles say. Where they wrong? Did use of traditions cut off at a certain time period and no longer working; god changed his mind?

Personal preference doesnt make whats not preferred wrong.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Each to his/her own.

How do you compare racism to visual expressions of loving god?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you understand How it would with your peers?

Not everyone can be catholic. But I notice ex catholics put down the Church. I know rituals dont work with you but that does not mean they arent from god. Christianity is a cultural and communal faith. Very few deminations I know symbolize or disregard it competely. They just change the terms. Communion not Eucharistic meal. Repentence not confession. Born again rather than saved by baptism. Sinner's prayer rather tha verbal conviction (confirmation) of faith.

The only three that isnt expicit in the bible is the law of annointing the sick, marriage, and I forgot the other.

But its a tradition. Dont forget your traditions, the apostles say. Where they wrong? Did use of traditions cut off at a certain time period and no longer working; god changed his mind?

Personal preference doesnt make whats not preferred wrong.

I really think that the Ones that are able to help us walk he path of truth are the Prophets and that They truly know what is true and what is vain imagining and no Prophet of God upholds the church sacraments. On the contrary, although they may feel like nice traditions, the Prophets have stated that these traditions have lead people away from God and caused them to reject truth.

I.E. The pope and Catholics are so attached to the sacraments and traditions that they missed the second coming. Their focus was so much on ritual and ceremony that when the true Christ appeared they rejected Him. So it can be very, very harmful to believe in things that end up turning one away from the very truth one claims to believe in.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I really think that the Ones that are able to help us walk he path of truth are the Prophets and that They truly know what is true and what is vain imagining and no Prophet of God upholds the church sacraments. On the contrary, although they may feel like nice traditions, the Prophets have stated that these traditions have lead people away from God and caused them to reject truth.

I.E. The pope and Catholics are so attached to the sacraments and traditions that they missed the second coming. Their focus was so much on ritual and ceremony that when the true Christ appeared they rejected Him. So it can be very, very harmful to believe in things that end up turning one away from the very truth one claims to believe in.

Its not The Church as a whole. Some people do other people dont. Its a gross generalization of The Catholic faith. They dont see Bahai views but they arent Bahai. Christianity is different than Bahai beliefs. Not right or wrong just different.

But what about my question?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then why do Christians believe the resurrection really happened? That's a false belief, right.

If we interpret the Resurrection literally to mean a physical resurrection, then it is not compatible with the other verses and teachings of Bible. It must be a figurative story then.

I think these words of Bahaullah is applicable in this case:


"Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did not recognize their object and purpose, and have clung to the literal interpretation of the words of Jesus, ......the ignorant among the Christian community, following the example of the
leaders of their faith...."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm.

Sorry to hear about your Aunt. Were you close? Do you have a funeral to attend? Funerals are often a very social time catching up with relatives. That can bring challenges in its own right of course.

Yeah. We were close. We might not have a funeral since she wanted to be cremated. We're seeing if her government services can pay for it since the siblings seem to not want to pitch in. We seem to have our family reunions at funerals. It is a challenge, you're right.

With The Buddha's Teachings (Pure Land Buddhism) and The Pali Canon, they are both very different in explaining The Buddha's Dharma. I wouldn't say contradicting but the language and mystics are different. I think other temples I've visited outside western ones are more mystic about the same teachings than western temples (or, more accurately, temples from other countries changed to accommodate American culture).

Buddha is both father and mother to the people of the world. For sixteen months after a child is born the father and mother have to speak to him in babyish words; then gradually they teach him to speak as an adult. Like earthly parents, Buddha first takes care of the people and then leaves them to care for themselves. He first brings things to pass according to their desires and then He brings them to a peaceful and safe shelter.

What Buddha preaches in His language, people receive and assimilate in their own language as if it were intended exclusively for them.

Buddha's state of mind surpasses human thought; it can not be made clear by words; it can only be hinted at in parables.

Siddhartha Gautama teaches in the manner appropriate to the people. Instead of like jesus who talked in parables so people wouldn't understand what he said about god, The Buddha talked in parables because he felt if he said The Dharma directly, people who are diluted in mind would not understand him. When he talks, he always puts The Dharma up high rather than himself. People adorn The Buddha's mind not Siddhartha but Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.

Maybe identify the difference between the historical buddha Siddhartha and The Buddha?

It would be weird that you'd be worshiping Siddhartha as a person and even more so, after his enlightenment worship him rather than one's own enlightenment as a reflection of your enlightenment with his enlightenment, not him as a person.

If you can separate the worship-prophet to worship-dharma, I feel you'll understand better why The Buddha is adorned. Not because of him specifically but because of The Dharma. Not a prophet just a teacher.

The Ganges River is stirred up by the tramping of horses and elephants and disturbed by the movements of fish and turtles; but the river flows on, pure and undisturbed by such trifles. Buddha is like the great river. The fish and turtles of other teachings swim about in its depths and push against its current, but in vain. Buddha's Dharma flows on, pure and undisturbed.

What is The Buddha Dharma to you, though?

Each culture adorns The Dharma differently. Though, from god? Here is another sutta I came across:

"No, monk, there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." [1] Nakhasikha Sutta: The Tip of the Fingernail

Is god of abraham eternal, constant, and non-changing?

 

[siti]

Let’s just take Baptism. If by water is meant earthly water then when it says we must be baptised by fire why is that not taken literally too?

Was Jesus burned? But he was baptized in water according to the Gospel. And he did command his disciples to go and make other disciples "baptizing them..." - you can't just edit that out and still claim that what Christ taught is the standard that should be followed - if Jesus did not say "baptize people" how do you know he really said we should love one another?

The most important and fundamental belief that should be exalted by Christians is to love one another. Yet Chrustianity has fallen into rituals and ceremonies and forgotten its roots - to love.

See above.

My understanding is that the church fathers instituted the sacraments to appease those who were superstitious and liked theatrics.

So the "church fathers" invented the story of Jesus baptism and the command to baptize? OK - I can buy that - but then how do you know they didn't make up the bit about loving each other as a way of controlling the flock they were intent on fleecing?

With 40,000 sects, the sacraments have proven impotent to unite and hold together Christians because I believe they were based on man made dogmas not specific rituals prescribed by Christ.

But that's only one way of looking at it - another way is to admit that despite their seemingly anachronous oddity, the sacraments continue to unite a billion members of the Roman Catholic Church (for example) almost two thousand years after their initiation. There has never in the entire history of humanity been another example that has so many committed to a set of rituals common across the globe and through the millennia. Right, wrong or indifferent, you have to acknowledge that the sacraments have and continue to be a unifying feature of Roman Catholic worship unparalleled by any other religious, political or social feature of human society that has ever been observed.

With all their sacraments and so many wars, the inquisition and bloodshed behind them it’s no wonder Christians have failed to bring about world peace because they are too focused on things like sacraments and rituals instead of loving one another.

There are about 40,000 sects of Christianity. Will the true one please stand up?

But didn't Christ himself say he came not to bring peace but a sword? Or do Baha'i's edit that bit out too?

But the real point at issue here is that once again you have made an obviously untrue statement about Christ not saying anything about rituals - baptism is a ritual, it is theatrical - it is a contentious and divisive issue among Christians, denominations being defined (even named) according to their differing interpretations of how and when the ritual should be performed - if Jesus didn't say anything about it - as you falsely claimed - there would be nothing for them to argue about. And if you stuck to making true statements there would be nothing for me to take issue with - but you don't - you twist the "truth" about other faiths, about history and even about your own "founding fathers" have said in order to support your Baha'i faith. That propensity - which has been openly displayed throughout this thread over many months now - is by far the most disturbing and, frankly repulsive, aspect to me.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Was Jesus burned? But he was baptized in water according to the Gospel. And he did command his disciples to go and make other disciples "baptizing them..." - you can't just edit that out and still claim that what Christ taught is the standard that should be followed - if Jesus did not say "baptize people" how do you know he really said we should love one another?

Jesus did say Baptize each other with water, but 'water' is a symbolic expression.


I quote's recorded words of Abdulbaha on this:


In the Gospel according to St John, Christ has said: ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.’ 1 The priests have interpreted this into meaning that baptism is necessary for salvation. In another Gospel it is said: ‘He shall baptizeyou with the Holy Ghost and with fire’. 2 82
Thus the water of baptism and the fire are one! It cannot mean that the ‘water’ spoken of is physical water, for it is the direct opposite of ‘fire’, and one destroys the other. When in the Gospels, Christ speaks of ‘water’, He means that which causes life, for without water no worldly creature can live—mineral, vegetable, animal and man, one and all, depend upon water for their very being. Yes, the latest scientific discoveries prove to us that even mineral has some form of life, and that it also needs water for its existence.
Water is the cause of life, and when Christ speaks of water, He is symbolizing that which is the cause of Everlasting Life.
This life-giving water of which He speaks is like unto fire, for it is none other than the Love of God, and this love means life to our souls.
By the fire of the Love of God the veil is burnt which separates us from the Heavenly Realities, and with clear vision we are enabled to struggle onward and upward, ever progressing in the paths of virtue and holiness, and becoming the means of light to the world.
There is nothing greater or more blessed than the Love of God! It gives healing to the sick, balm to the wounded, joy and consolation to the whole world, and through it alone can man attain Life Everlasting. The essence of all religions is the Love of God, and it is the foundation of all the sacred teachings.
It was the Love of God that led Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that strengthened Joseph in Egypt and gave to Moses courage and patience. 83
Through the Love of God, Christ was sent into the world with His inspiring example of a perfect life of self-sacrifice and devotion, bringing to men the message of Eternal Life. It was the Love of God that gave Muḥammad power to bring the Arabs from a state of animal degradation to a loftier state of existence.
God’s Love it was that sustained the Báb and brought him to his supreme sacrifice, and made his bosom the willing target for a thousand bullets.
Finally, it was the Love of God that gave to the East Bahá’u’lláh, and is now sending the light of His teaching far into the West, and from Pole to Pole.
Thus I exhort each of you, realizing its power and beauty, to sacrifice all your thoughts, words and actions to bring the knowledge of the Love of God into every heart.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 81-83

 

[siti]

Jesus did say Baptize each other with water, but 'water' is a symbolic expression.


I quote's recorded words of Abdulbaha on this:


In the Gospel according to St John, Christ has said: ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.’ 1 The priests have interpreted this into meaning that baptism is necessary for salvation. In another Gospel it is said: ‘He shall baptizeyou with the Holy Ghost and with fire’. 2 82
Thus the water of baptism and the fire are one! It cannot mean that the ‘water’ spoken of is physical water, for it is the direct opposite of ‘fire’, and one destroys the other. When in the Gospels, Christ speaks of ‘water’, He means that which causes life, for without water no worldly creature can live—mineral, vegetable, animal and man, one and all, depend upon water for their very being. Yes, the latest scientific discoveries prove to us that even mineral has some form of life, and that it also needs water for its existence.
Water is the cause of life, and when Christ speaks of water, He is symbolizing that which is the cause of Everlasting Life.
This life-giving water of which He speaks is like unto fire, for it is none other than the Love of God, and this love means life to our souls.
By the fire of the Love of God the veil is burnt which separates us from the Heavenly Realities, and with clear vision we are enabled to struggle onward and upward, ever progressing in the paths of virtue and holiness, and becoming the means of light to the world.
There is nothing greater or more blessed than the Love of God! It gives healing to the sick, balm to the wounded, joy and consolation to the whole world, and through it alone can man attain Life Everlasting. The essence of all religions is the Love of God, and it is the foundation of all the sacred teachings.
It was the Love of God that led Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that strengthened Joseph in Egypt and gave to Moses courage and patience. 83
Through the Love of God, Christ was sent into the world with His inspiring example of a perfect life of self-sacrifice and devotion, bringing to men the message of Eternal Life. It was the Love of God that gave Muḥammad power to bring the Arabs from a state of animal degradation to a loftier state of existence.
God’s Love it was that sustained the Báb and brought him to his supreme sacrifice, and made his bosom the willing target for a thousand bullets.
Finally, it was the Love of God that gave to the East Bahá’u’lláh, and is now sending the light of His teaching far into the West, and from Pole to Pole.
Thus I exhort each of you, realizing its power and beauty, to sacrifice all your thoughts, words and actions to bring the knowledge of the Love of God into every heart.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 81-83

Very nice IT - but was Jesus himself literally baptized in water or not? If he was then there is no reason to assume that he meant anything other than literal water baptism is there? And if he was not, and that account is fictional - added by the Church Fathers to establish a case for the sacrament of baptism in the Church, then on what basis does Abdu'l Baha take the quote from John the Baptist from that same account as literal? Or was Abdu'l Baha simply establishing a precedent for the Baha'i sacrament of prevarication which you all seem to be following with unswerving faithfulness?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Very nice IT - but was Jesus himself literally baptized in water or not? If he was then there is no reason to assume that he meant anything other than literal water baptism is there? And if he was not, and that account is fictional - added by the Church Fathers to establish a case for the sacrament of baptism in the Church, then on what basis does Abdu'l Baha take the quote from John the Baptist from that same account as literal? Or was Abdu'l Baha simply establishing a precedent for the Baha'i sacrament of prevarication which you all seem to be following with unswerving faithfulness?

In all this it comes down to that what was practiced in Christianity, Isalm, Baha'i or any Faith given by any Great Being is praisworthy when and only when it is for the mention and praise of God and results in deeds that show this. Also that it shows it is the cause of Unity.

If religion becomes the cause for disunity, it is best we do not have it and indeed we should never discuss it if the intent is to show a superiority and not a harmony in the Love of God.

Why these issues were discussed is that they are a veil for some to see God in other Faiths. The offer was to see the same teaching in a way that does not cause the placement of a veil. There is just as much scriptural authority for this position, as there is for any other.

It is best now the positions are made known, just to leave it alone. Those who want to explore will.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Was Jesus burned? But he was baptized in water according to the Gospel. And he did command his disciples to go and make other disciples "baptizing them..." - you can't just edit that out and still claim that what Christ taught is the standard that should be followed - if Jesus did not say "baptize people" how do you know he really said we should love one another?

As a point to show there are just as valid arguements.

I see no problem if Baptisim being practiced as it was, it was an aid to cement ones Love for Christ and give a thirst for that knowledge. As long as we know it was an outward form, for an internal Reality.

It was John that did Baptism with water and it was John that Said Christ would baptise with the Holy Spirit and Fire.

That Christ did not do a ritual with Holy Spirit and Fire, we can conclude that he Approved, by allowing John to Baptise Him of Water, that Baptisim include all these 3 elements.

Now the crutch of the issue. Gods Laws is an aspect that does Change. This was not in the Jewish Faith, thus it was a test to Jews.

By clinging to literal interpretations the Jews missed this bounty.

From this we learn our future lessons.

Regards Tony