How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

@adrian009

I wanted to know. If you're more for authenticity, why follow Pure Land. Pure Land seems to originated in 1211 and this chart shows the progression of different schools and traditions throughout the years.

Bahai says that ancient religions are no longer acceptable for this day. Do you feel Pure Land is the original Buddhism over those who follow the Pali Canon directly?

Wouldn't it be sensible to start at where the Pure Land based some of it's teachings on, the history of why they are different than the original, and get to know the foundation of Buddhism from a Indian flare rather than Japanese (which Buddhism didn't come directly to. It went, I think, through Sri Lanka, a couple surrounding countries. To China and then to Japan.

 

[siti]

where did Christ specifically reveal a Book of Laws laying down rituals and ceremonies

Christ did not reveal a book of anything - his 'disciples' did and they included baptism and communion as Christ's instructions to his followers. (Matthew 28:19-20, Luke 22:19)

Baptism was not obligatory to become a believer and where is communion obligatory.

Matthew 28:19-20, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Luke 22:19

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christ did not reveal a book of anything - his 'disciples' did and they included baptism and communion as Christ's instructions to his followers. (Matthew 28:19-20, Luke 22:19)

Matthew 28:19-20, Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Luke 22:19

In these passages baptism is just another word for confirming them in the Cause of God or converting. It has nothing to do with water or rituals.

Jesus tells them to go forth and teach and ‘confirm’. In Christian language baptism means to become a dedicated believer which is what Christ was speaking about because it’s not enough to just teach people about God but the next step is to make them firm and strong believers.

I think it’s common sense that Christ was saying to go forth teach and make firm believers.

That people got stuck on the Word Baptism which all it meant was to make firm believers only reflects language differences between them and now. Baptism meant to confirm a believer in the truth.

Logic and reason says that one goes forth and teaches and makes strong believers not goes forward and teaches and meaninglessly pours water over people. Baptism then meant to become a confirmed believer or strong in Faith.

It’s just common sense that’s what it referred to. That’s what baptism by fire meant -‘the fire of the love of God’ not material fire.

It’s all very common sense to me that Christ’s instructions were to go forth and teach and confirm believers with the ‘fire’ of the live of God. Water was just another symbol used.

And that’s what Christians do. They teach people then try to make them strong believers. In the process they believe that pouring water has some magical effect but I say it’s just a symbol and the true magic is the Word of God not the water.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm more for water, but Jesus didn't say it was wrong. Institution is by the Church so I'd (not) see it wrong (how, unless you believe it's magical water?) just to some people extra or not needed. It's just water. I see no issue with it. No one worships water.

It's there regardless of how Bahai sees it. Bahai aren't christians; so, I'd consider it opinion.



You're missing the whole point of rituals. It's grounds the physical and spiritual together; since, creation is not separate from the creator. It's the hug that goes with the I love you. It's the love for a child with whom the parent literally not symbolically saves. It's not longer Christianity (and Buddhism, Islam, and Hindu) when you take out the physical nature of a spiritual faith, it means nothing.

I really wish you understood this. Most people do.



Outward symbols are not wrong. They are purely cultural. If you don't agree with what is literally written in The Bible, how do you believe in christianity? Maybe Bahai version but certainty not Christianity as defined by culture and belief from Jewish, Roman, to all the other cultures derived from their travels in Acts.

It just seems like my telling you two and two is four but Bahai insist its five. Don't know why, but it's interesting to note.



Water and Spirit was required for baptism. Your faith focuses on spirit. Christianity does not. You guys have different belief systems. You cannot change what's written in scripture. It's not symbolic.



My point exactly. Just Christians are more serious about it, I guess. They take "enrollment cards" seriously as a confirmation of being christian. It's not just signing a card and believing. It's a whole lifestyle of visual and spiritual living all together. It's not one time and it's not thrown aside and stack up like cards.

If you can't see the physical nature of Christianity, that does not mean it does not exist. You just can't see it in relation to your own physical rituals that express the spiritual part of your faith. If you want to look at what you two have in common

Stop with the politics and look at the spiritual nature of these physical things instead. Maybe go to another house of worship or visit another country, I guess. I don't know. You'd have to be culturally sensitive and willing to interact to understand why the two are inseparable.

I think in past ages, due to our capacity, knowledge and education at that time we felt the need to turn to an image or idol to try and visualize God or pray to Him, but as time went on and we matured mentally and spiritually, Educators insisted these were not paths to truth neither things like rituals.

Now Baha’u’llah has come and said that our collective maturity has arrived and we are capable to worship God without any need of rituals. Now these rituals have become part of traditions and cultures but their purpose is to come close to God yet haven’t people’s attachment to these idols and images turned them away from God’s Messengers and Prophets Who are the true custodians of truth?

If for instance I’m a catholic or a Buddhist and my attachment to these outward things led me to reject God’s Messengers or lately Baha’u’llah then IF Baha’u’llah is the True One then haven’t these traditions been nothing but obstacles in the path to truth?

I’m only saying IF. In my opinion attachment to outward forms of religion have definitely led people astray from accepting Baha’u’llah and what IF that’s the case? Then what good is being attached to these things if they defeat their own purpose which is to draw closer to truth or God?

If by worshipping the outward forms of religion it has caused people to miss discovering Who Baha’u’llah is then it has done them an enormous disservice in my humble opinion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think in past ages, due to our capacity, knowledge and education at that time we felt the need to turn to an image or idol to try and visualize God or pray

When did the present update and replace the past?

What you call idols to many christians (baptist, JW, Catholic, Nonndeminational to namena few) are essential to ones faith. It was done in the past and now. No one stopped it just because we are in the 21st century.

If its outdated now, what about our human mind change that we dont need these things in our spiritual practice?

How is Bahai an exception?

Not retorical questions.

Now Baha’u’llah has come and said that our collective maturity has arrived and we are capable to worship God without any need of rituals. Now these rituals have become part of traditions and cultures but their purpose is to come close to God yet ha

The issue is you arent able to see the importance and serious spiritual connection between rituals and spirituality. They go together.

Many people get it while disagreeing. I think you missed the point.

If for instance I’m a catholic or a Buddhist and my attachment to these outward things led me to reject God’s Messengers or lately Baha’u’llah then IF Baha’u’llah is the True One then haven’t these traditions been nothing but obstacles in the path to truth?

They dont. If they do you are not practicing Catholicism as taught by The Church.

The Buddha doesnt point to god. If you practice as if he doesx that isnt buddhism

Your faith is different. No need to out religions and rituals down as idols because you disagree with it. Not all of us have the same experience thereby we see things positive.

I’m only saying IF. In my opinion attachment to outward forms of religion have definitely led people astray from accepting Baha’u’llah and what IF that’s the case? Then what good is being attached to these things if they de

The problem is, they dont. They lead people to god And visa versa. Inseperable.

If by worshipping the outward forms of religion it has caused people to miss discovering Who Baha’u’llah is then it has done them an enormous disservice in my humble opinion.

Christians, Buddhists, Hinduis, and Muslims arent Bahai. No one worships rituals. They use rituals to connect with their spiritually.

Not wrong just not your preference. Thats the difference.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When did the present update and replace the past?

What you call idols to many christians (baptist, JW, Catholic, Nonndeminational to namena few) are essential to ones faith. It was done in the past and now. No one stopped it just because we are in the 21st century.

If its outdated now, what about our human mind change that we dont need these things in our spiritual practice?

How is Bahai an exception?

Not retorical questions.



The issue is you arent able to see the importance and serious spiritual connection between rituals and spirituality. They go together.

Many people get it while disagreeing. I think you missed the point.



They dont. If they do you are not practicing Catholicism as taught by The Church.

The Buddha doesnt point to god. If you practice as if he doesx that isnt buddhism

Your faith is different. No need to out religions and rituals down as idols because you disagree with it. Not all of us have the same experience thereby we see things positive.



The problem is, they dont. They lead people to god And visa versa. Inseperable.



Christians, Buddhists, Hinduis, and Muslims arent Bahai. No one worships rituals. They use rituals to connect with their spiritually.

Not wrong just not your preference. Thats the difference.

Yes, I guess it comes down to whether one is a worshipper of truth or a worshipper of personal preference.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, I guess it comes down to whether one is a worshipper of truth or a worshipper of personal preference.

Both of you are a worshiper of personal preference.

If you two were worshipers of truth, there would be no differences. Since you all have your own truths, they are opinions. Truths (more than one) cant unified nor are they compromised to meet one persons truth. Thats why they are beliefs.

I ask questions for more information. They arent rethorical. I find it unproductive repeating ourselves without asking questions of interest, clarification, and thirst to learn anything outside our comfort zone.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Both of you are a worshiper of personal preference.

If you two were worshipers of truth, there would be no differences. Since you all have your own truths, they are opinions. Truths (more than one) cant unified nor are they compromised to meet one persons truth. Thats why they are beliefs.

I ask questions for more information. They arent rethorical. I find it unproductive repeating ourselves without asking questions of interest, clarification, and thirst to learn anything outside our comfort zone.

After I was a catholic born and raised I became an atheist so I was out of my comfort zone to even look at another religion. Yet I didn’t write it off completely and in the process found that truth is in all religions and science and in every human being.

It was a huge shift from my comfort zone to go from believing in no God to then accept God then truth in all religions.

I asked challenging questions. So I know what it’s like to be a catholic to pray to statues of Jesus and Mary, to be a dedicated atheist and then to find ......

So I’ve been out of my comfort zone an aweful lot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

After I was a catholic born and raised I became an atheist so I was out of my comfort zone to even look at another religion. Yet I didn’t write it off completely and in the process found that truth is in all religions and science and in every human being.

It was a huge shift from my comfort zone to go from believing in no God to then accept God then truth in all religions.

I asked challenging questions. So I know what it’s like to be a catholic to pray to statues of Jesus and Mary, to be a dedicated atheist and then to find ......

So I’ve been out of my comfort zone an aweful lot.

You prayed to statues???

What sacraments are not physically written in the bible you believe in?

Comfort zone... learning and interest to learn outside your point of view. Atheism doesnt make one openminded. JW was open minded with me more so than Catholics. CCC doesnt teach to pray to statues.

It depends on when you were catholics which pope ran the show, where you from, upbringing, and parish. Though these experiences should create negative bias over catholic traditions.

 

[siti]

In these passages baptism is just another word for confirming them in the Cause of God or converting. It has nothing to do with water or rituals.

Jesus tells them to go forth and teach and ‘confirm’. In Christian language baptism means to become a dedicated believer which is what Christ was speaking about because it’s not enough to just teach people about God but the next step is to make them firm and strong believers.

I think it’s common sense that Christ was saying to go forth teach and make firm believers.

That people got stuck on the Word Baptism which all it meant was to make firm believers only reflects language differences between them and now. Baptism meant to confirm a believer in the truth.

Logic and reason says that one goes forth and teaches and makes strong believers not goes forward and teaches and meaninglessly pours water over people. Baptism then meant to become a confirmed believer or strong in Faith.

It’s just common sense that’s what it referred to. That’s what baptism by fire meant -‘the fire of the love of God’ not material fire.

It’s all very common sense to me that Christ’s instructions were to go forth and teach and confirm believers with the ‘fire’ of the live of God. Water was just another symbol used.

And that’s what Christians do. They teach people then try to make them strong believers. In the process they believe that pouring water has some magical effect but I say it’s just a symbol and the true magic is the Word of God not the water.

I'm sorry to break this to you LH, but the Bible was not written in logic and reason - and certainly not in your particular brand of logic and reason which says if it fits my beliefs that's what it means. The Bible was written in Greek and the Greek word used for it was: βαπτίζω (baptizó) - which refers to immersion or dipping in water and which occurs 81 times in the NT and almost always in connection with the notion of sacred ceremonial ablutions or obvious allusions to such ablutions. There is not one single verse in the NT that suggests that this word meant merely becoming a strong believer. Anyway, you can look up all the occurrences here and see if you can find one that supports your interpretation (hint - you will probably be disappointed).

 

[loverofhumanity]

You prayed to statues???

What sacraments are not physically written in the bible you believe in?

Comfort zone... learning and interest to learn outside your point of view. Atheism doesnt make one openminded. JW was open minded with me more so than Catholics. CCC doesnt teach to pray to statues.

It depends on when you were catholics which pope ran the show, where you from, upbringing, and parish. Though these experiences should create negative bias over catholic traditions.

There were statues of Jesus and Mary. Everyone prayed to them. As a child every Catholic Church had statues of Jesus, Mary and often Joseph too.

I attended a few parishes and it was the same in each.

But the church taught me about Jesus Life and Teachings which in the end helped me to recognise Baha’u’llah because it says ‘my sheep will know my voice’ and so when I heard Baha’u’llah’s Words and Teachings and matched them with Jesus Words and Teachings they were a perfect match!

But I was lucky and able to somehow break with traditions and sacraments which in turn led me to be open enough to accept the truth. But I fully understand a person who is attached to these things would be very protective and defensive about letting them go.

I was an atheist for a good 10 years, just as long as I was a devout catholic and opposed religion and God just as much as I had previously believed in it.

My dear mother, who was a devout catholic, recognised Baha’u’llah’s Words to be the same as Christ’s and accepted Him also.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm sorry to break this to you LH, but the Bible was not written in logic and reason - and certainly not in your particular brand of logic and reason which says if it fits my beliefs that's what it means. The Bible was written in Greek and the Greek word used for it was: βαπτίζω (baptizó) - which refers to immersion or dipping in water and which occurs 81 times in the NT and almost always in connection with the notion of sacred ceremonial ablutions or obvious allusions to such ablutions. There is not one single verse in the NT that suggests that this word meant merely becoming a strong believer. Anyway, you can look up all the occurrences here and see if you can find one that supports your interpretation (hint - you will probably be disappointed).

My purpose is to state that the Bible is essentially a Book written to bring man closer to God, to improve and foster the spiritual life of man. It is book centred on the spiritual life.

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said His Words were ‘spirit and life’ not physical water.

The thief in the cross with Christ who repented. Jesus said He would be in heaven with Him yet He wasn’t baptised with water? How is it possible that a man i baptised can still enter heaven?
Because it’s not a requirement. It was only a symbol used to convey inner cleanliness is required to become a true believer.

And then there’s this.

John 6:35

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Thus Christ expresses “coming to him” as eating; and “believing in him” as drinking. To eat is to draw near to Him, and to drink is to believe in Him.

Was Jesus was a walking and talking loaf of bread?

This is another of many symbolic terms used to portray inner truths.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38

The water in Baptism is only a reminder or symbol to be pure in heart. Otherwise earthy water cannot cleanse sins.

The importance of baptism is belief. There are many instances in the Bible where people were ‘baptised’ without water as it was not essential just a reminder.


(where is Baptism a requirement in the verses below to be saved? Eternal life, everlasting life, being saved and not perishing are promised for ‘believing in him’ not being baptized)

John 3 15-17

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Baptism was just one method of proving membership as a Christian but not obligatory and you had to believe first or you couldn’t be baptized.

Acts 8 36-38

Acts 8:36-37
[36] Eventually the chariot passed a body of water beside the road.

The Ethiopian: Since there is water here, is there anything that might prevent me from being ceremonially washed through baptism and identified as a disciple of Jesus? [37]

Philip: [If you believe in your heart that Jesus the Anointed is God's Son, then nothing can stop you. The Ethiopian said that he believed.]

It was clearly an initiation ceremony so as to be identified as a Christian but note that the Ethiopian had to believe first to be initiated. The belief not the water was the requirement.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There were statues of Jesus and Mary. Everyone prayed to them. As a child every Catholic Church had statues of Jesus, Mary and often Joseph too.

I attended a few parishes and it was the same in each.

But the church taught me about Jesus Life and Teachings which in the end helped me to recognise Baha’u’llah because it says ‘my sheep will know my voice’ and so when I heard Baha’u’llah’s Words and Teachings and matched them with Jesus Words and Teachings they were a perfect match!

But I was lucky and able to somehow break with traditions and sacraments which in turn led me to be open enough to accept the truth. But I fully understand a person who is attached to these things would be very protective and defensive about letting them go.

I was an atheist for a good 10 years, just as long as I was a devout catholic and opposed religion and God just as much as I had previously believed in it.

My dear mother, who was a devout catholic, recognised Baha’u’llah’s Words to be the same as Christ’s and accepted Him also.

Nice.

I wanted to back track a bit. Where in the CCC does ir say to pray To statues? (And where in scripture does it mention the sacraments are false?)

I know we prayed in front of statues, rubed their foot, light candles and insense in front of them and some gave donations. I asked the priests about worshiping statues. He shook his head. Worship is top Christ alone, he said.

I ask practitioners if they pray to statues before I was confirmed. They shook they head. We pray to god, mary, and the saints. Many were insulted by the qurstions. We worship no one but christ. We dont worship mary. Mary is not christ.

Some may not know the difference. As I said in depends on pope, time, parish, and indoctrination vs convert.

Where in the CCC does it say to pray to statue's?

Youre going of the people not the religons teachings.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My purpose is to state that the Bible is essentially a Book written to bring man closer to God, to improve and foster the spiritual life of man. It is book centred on the spiritual life.

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said His Words were ‘spirit and life’ not physical water.

The thief in the cross with Christ who repented. Jesus said He would be in heaven with Him yet He wasn’t baptised with water? How is it possible that a man i baptised can still enter heaven?
Because it’s not a requirement. It was only a symbol used to convey inner cleanliness is required to become a true believer.

And then there’s this.

John 6:35

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Thus Christ expresses “coming to him” as eating; and “believing in him” as drinking. To eat is to draw near to Him, and to drink is to believe in Him.

Was Jesus was a walking and talking loaf of bread?

This is another of many symbolic terms used to portray inner truths.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38

The water in Baptism is only a reminder or symbol to be pure in heart. Otherwise earthy water cannot cleanse sins.

The importance of baptism is belief. There are many instances in the Bible where people were ‘baptised’ without water as it was not essential just a reminder.


(where is Baptism a requirement in the verses below to be saved? Eternal life, everlasting life, being saved and not perishing are promised for ‘believing in him’ not being baptized)

John 3 15-17

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Baptism was just one method of proving membership as a Christian but not obligatory and you had to believe first or you couldn’t be baptized.

Acts 8 36-38

Acts 8:36-37
[36] Eventually the chariot passed a body of water beside the road.

The Ethiopian: Since there is water here, is there anything that might prevent me from being ceremonially washed through baptism and identified as a disciple of Jesus? [37]

Philip: [If you believe in your heart that Jesus the Anointed is God's Son, then nothing can stop you. The Ethiopian said that he believed.]

It was clearly an initiation ceremony so as to be identified as a Christian but note that the Ethiopian had to believe first to be initiated. The belief not the water was the requirement.

Im confused, or maybe I wasnt a real catholic.

Where in the CCC and Catholic Bible does it not say these things?..

You make it seem catholism is based on how Some catholics worship and your experiences and Not whats in their bible and worship to christ and christ only.

Water does nothing. Who said water saves? If thats the case, Baptist who baptize their children in the river some dont need belief in christ. If that be the case, no one needs to believe in christ just be dunked in water.

Where does the CCC say that you can be saved by water rather than by christ?

Eating bread and drinking wine at a table is a culture thing. It has been done in Judaism and in christianity. Its a way for believers to come together in worship and gratitude.

This is my body/bread (this is mana who saved the Isrealite life and from god they as said was not only fillsd spiritually but physically too given they were starving.)

Its a play on words. Bread saved god's chosen people. Christ saves all people. Bread saved the lives in the OT. Bread brings people together in one meal to make christ present at their lord's table.

Where in scripture and CCC does it say The Eucharist-physical bread and wine-has magical power to save?

The priest literally laughed when I asked before confirming. I had to "have a talk" first.

Where in scripture does it mention culture has nothing to do with faith in christ?

Where does it say culture itself (not the people using it) invalidates faith in christ?

Not rethorical questions.

Answer these from the CCC and Catholic bible.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nice.

I wanted to back track a bit. Where in the CCC does ir say to pray To statues? (And where in scripture does it mention the sacraments are false?)

I know we prayed in front of statues, rubed their foot, light candles and insense in front of them and some gave donations. I asked the priests about worshiping statues. He shook his head. Worship is top Christ alone, he said.

I ask practitioners if they pray to statues before I was confirmed. They shook they head. We pray to god, mary, and the saints. Many were insulted by the qurstions. We worship no one but christ. We dont worship mary. Mary is not christ.

Some may not know the difference. As I said in depends on pope, time, parish, and indoctrination vs convert.

Where in the CCC does it say to pray to statue's?

Youre going of the people not the religons teachings.

All I remember is people were all praying to the statues. We were never told it was wrong or against the churches laws or against the Bible. They, the church authorities are the ones that put the statues there so maybe it was to create atmosphere but we were never told anything and they even prayed to them themselves.

As to the scriptures they are a guide to God and truth and how to lead a spiritual life.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009

I wanted to know. If you're more for authenticity, why follow Pure Land. Pure Land seems to originated in 1211 and this chart shows the progression of different schools and traditions throughout the years.

Bahai says that ancient religions are no longer acceptable for this day. Do you feel Pure Land is the original Buddhism over those who follow the Pali Canon directly?

Wouldn't it be sensible to start at where the Pure Land based some of it's teachings on, the history of why they are different than the original, and get to know the foundation of Buddhism from a Indian flare rather than Japanese (which Buddhism didn't come directly to. It went, I think, through Sri Lanka, a couple surrounding countries. To China and then to Japan.

Its an excellent question, so thank you.

The logical starting point for my exploring Buddhism is Japanese culture as the connection is established through marriage and my wife's Japanese ancestors. That is a real connection. I'm not bound to accept the teachings of any one Buddhist tradition and wouldn't expect to find a perfect tradition. Eventually pure land Buddhism will disappoint me, but is that not part of the journey? I will develop a better understanding of my Faith's roots as knowledge and insights unfold.

My strongest connection to Christianity is through the Baptists. That's the church I was part of prior to becoming a Baha'i and its the church that is a large part of the medical centre where I do volunteer work. It doesn't matter that they have beliefs that are very different from what Baha'is believe.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Im confused, or maybe I wasnt a real catholic.

Where in the CCC and Catholic Bible does it not say these things?..

You make it seem catholism is based on how Some catholics worship and your experiences and Not whats in their bible and worship to christ and christ only.

Water does nothing. Who said water saves? If thats the case, Baptist who baptize their children in the river some dont need belief in christ. If that be the case, no one needs to believe in christ just be dunked in water.

Where does the CCC say that you can be saved by water rather than by christ?

Eating bread and drinking wine at a table is a culture thing. It has been done in Judaism and in christianity. Its a way for believers to come together in worship and gratitude.

This is my body/bread (this is mana who saved the Isrealite life and from god they as said was not only fillsd spiritually but physically too given they were starving.)

Its a play on words. Bread saved god's chosen people. Christ saves all people. Bread saved the lives in the OT. Bread brings people together in one meal to make christ present at their lord's table.

Where in scripture and CCC does it say The Eucharist-physical bread and wine-has magical power to save?

The priest literally laughed when I asked before confirming. I had to "have a talk" first.

Where in scripture does it mention culture has nothing to do with faith in christ?

Where does it say culture itself (not the people using it) invalidates faith in christ?

Not rethorical questions.

Answer these from the CCC and Catholic bible.

I think I’m agreeing with a lot of what you’re saying. Culture and tradition are part of every nation and religion. So having a meal and praising and remembering God is great.

With infant baptism when the infant does not have cognitive abilities to accept or reject truth, water is used to so called purify the child from original sin another strange belief. A child born pure and helpless cannot be born in sin.

Also at mass the bit about changing the bread and wine into the blood and flesh of Jesus I think that’s heading into stranger ground.

I think Christ spoke metaphorically on these occasions and never intended for rituals or ceremonies to emerge.

Culture can be a good thing I think but we also have been given minds and intelligence to look at things in a rational, reasonable way. I think religion without the aid of the powers of science has in many instances fallen into superstitious practices which the mind cannot accept.

That’s why many of these things Christ taught if looked at symbolically make sense.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The questions Im asking are directly in the written bible both OT and NT. Institution is from The Church. The sacraments are not a "catholic" teaching. JW dispises Catholic and they have them too.

Youre stuck on the organizational nature of The Church. I never had that harsh view of "Church" teachings. Ive been baptized in two different Churches. Ive had communion in many Churches. All of them I been to have confirmation and most definitely repentence.

The only one they dont have is the anointing of the sick. At least most protestants I know. Some baptist churches have oil anounting when someone confirms their faith in the church-baptist. Most have sacredness in marriage.

As written-whats physically written in the bible. Which five sacraments are not as written in scripture?

There are many things written in the Bible. None of the sacraments of the church were authorized by Christ.

I want to make a differentiation here.

1. The Words of Christ are the Words of Christ.

2. The sacraments are laws and ordinances established by the church.

3. Christ never appointed anyone or directed anyone to establish any sacraments, rituals or ceremonies. Also things like original sin never came from Jesus.

4. As the church grew they formed a set of rituals, rules and ceremonies called sacraments.

Thus none of the sacraments were ever authorized by Christ to become a part of His religion. His most important teachings were:

1. To love one another
2. To be united

Baptism of an infant which is used to purge an infant of perceived ‘original sin’ is only a catholic thing. The story of Adam and Eve is also found in the Jewish Torah but original sin is not part of Jewish belief.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All I remember is people were all praying to the statues. We were never told it was wrong or against the churches laws or against the Bible. They, the church authorities are the ones that put the statues there so maybe it was to create atmosphere but we were never told anything and they even prayed to them themselves.

As to the scriptures they are a guide to God and truth and how to lead a spiritual life.

But scripture and the CCC doesnt teach praying to statues. Do you remember priest telling you, you are praying to statues?

The hugest parish in our country is near me. They have three floors of statues and three areas where Mass is held. People go to the statues and pray to jesus, mary, or a saint they are called to. It looks like they are praying to statues because the statues "symbolize" the people it represents. The reason it is not worshiped because its a symbol. Catholics worship not a representation (aka idol) of him.

I dont know about individual christians. Its not wrong to use statues as a means to remember god. What scripture says is not use anything to replace him like the golden calf. No catholic worships the "calf" like in the OT. Unless worship for you involves symbolism rather than just worshiping the person it symbolizes?

That and why would you think some things in scripture are symbolic but when catholics adorn the representation of christs no longer symbolic but literal?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think I’m agreeing with a lot of what you’re saying. Culture and tradition are part of every nation and religion. So having a meal and praising and remembering God is great.

With infant baptism when the infant does not have cognitive abilities to accept or reject truth, water is used to so called purify the child from original sin another strange belief. A child born pure and helpless cannot be born in sin.

Also at mass the bit about changing the bread and wine into the blood and flesh of Jesus I think that’s heading into stranger ground.

I think Christ spoke metaphorically on these occasions and never intended for rituals or ceremonies to emerge.

Culture can be a good thing I think but we also have been given minds and intelligence to look at things in a rational, reasonable way. I think religion without the aid of the powers of science has in many instances fallen into superstitious practices which the mind cannot accept.

That’s why many of these things Christ taught if looked at symbolically make sense.

Children who are already baptised still go through repentence, communion, and confirmation. Their salvation isnt branded until they know thet sinned in the ages growing up, I think about seven years old. They learn the teachings in class and mass so they know why they take communion and whether they are ready to confirm their faith. Baptism is in the spirit of christ.

Does christ wait until a child is an adult before he blesses them?

It took me awhile to understand transubstatiation. Its when the levites brought out the animal sacrifice from the tent from the tabanacle to the people. The priest says a prayer of repentence over the sacrifice. It is slained and the fresh unleaved meet is eatened and thereby the people are forgiven.

The same thing with The Church. I cant remember what its called but The Catholic Church (Othorodox and Roman) catholicism is said to be the continuation of the OT practices rather than chucking the OT rites for physical rites in the gospels symbolized and spiritualized for the 21st century.

I honestly feel as years went on people felt less comfortable with what their ancestors did. In the african faith, Lukumi, they have animal sacrifice. They actually kill animals. Since the Church doesnt kill animals (no more need for animal sacrifice) christ became the sacrifice. Its doing the same thing in the OT as in the new but with christ instead.

Its easier to understand the connection when you dont symbolize a faith not meant to be symbolized.