How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

All these Educators I believe brought very important teachings to humanity which helped us progress. For example Moses brought us the Ten Commandments. What civilisation is not influenced by these laws?

But if we have so many Educators or Teachers why another One?

And what New could He bring that we desperately need that the other Educators did not bring or wasn't right for that time?

What we need urgently and desperately today that is agreed upon in general is a new System. From the political to economic to religious systems currently in the world there are heard increasingly loud and clear voices against corruption.

There is corruption all over the world in sport and businesses, politics etc and so we need a new System.

And that is exactly the main purpose Bahaullah has come, not just as a religion but to usher in a new Divine Civilisation, to Christians - the Kingdom of God on earth.

He has brought a completely incorruptible, yes incorruptible administration with new laws for a new world civilisation. A bandaid cannot be put on a cancer. The old system cannot fix itself.

So, the reason Bahaullah has come is not to convert the world to the Baha'i Faith but to create another world which we have never ever known or even dreamed about. It's the dream and vision that keeps us Baha'is going.

Here is some parts of that beautiful dream. All,women in the world would love to see this day. Especially in countries where rape is so prevalent.

‘My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and faith.

For instance [in the future] should a woman ..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...’ Then Bahá’u’lláh affirmed, ‘Through the power of God I shall transform the peoples of the world into this exalted state and shall open this most great door to the face of all humanity.

These dreams are what we work for. That all people, all women will be safe. It is not about us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As a result, I call this truth. Not universal truth since not everyone shares the same truth as I do (my point) but the truth that helps me both subjectively and objectively; it isn't separate from the sun.

Maybe that's the cognitive dissonance, when we're getting personal truth confused with universal truth.

Eucharist isn't symbolic, it's literal. It's connected to stories because it supports the actual event that happened and what these stories are based on. If I saw it only symbolic, I could just go to a Baptist Church be just as happy. But the two experiences are completely different.

The bread and wine are symbolic.

It has nothing to do with science. I've repeated, though, how you (only as a Bahai not as a person) or in other words, through your belief, depreciate other people's beliefs. In my opinion, if you are to have a religion you accept in your belief, you have to get that belief correct, understand it, and be respectful to full devotees and let them define their scripture for you not Bahuallah or anyone else.

It should relate to science and reason if we are to avoid compartmentalising our religious beliefs separate from everything else.

You have made your views clearly known as to how you consider Baha'is deprecate other people's belief.
My repeated response is the inevitability of clashing ideas when we have an interfaith debate. That's all it is.

Some people believe in false religions (as one of you said) but they aren't awaken to the truth.. and so on and so forth. It's the same with Bahai. Ya'll just more peaceful with it. Most religions I know say your belief is between you and your person or object of worship. I only know Muslims and Christians to be demanding. Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist are but it's strictly political and has nothing to do with the religion if any.

Having discussions such as these can be helpful to distinguish truth from falsehood. Lets enjoy the moment.

Do you know your beliefs are true?

At one time we didn't know how the earth went around the sun but that didn't mean it was false. The earth doesn't revolve around us

That was my point exactly. There is much we don't know that is true regardless of whether or not we recognise it. We need to step out of our comfort zones to better understand the reality of others faiths and in that way we become open to these unknown truths.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No it's not. For that, it's a terrible example.

Then the human body may be a much better example. It is a perfect example of different parts/organs working in unison for the benefit of the whole yet having independent functions.

 

[CG Didymus]

Carlita... Let me say I appreciate your attempts here to support your views... In my view the Manifestations could be compared to teachers in a school... We attend school and pass through various grades. All the teachers are qualified to teach. The first grade is suited for entering students. Each grade has certain goals as the capacities of the students must be acknowledged and respected.

Looking back on your school experience you likely had some favorite teachers and some you may not have liked as much but they all had a mission to educate you and bring your education to a certain level of attainment.

I was just talking about the grade school analogy. But let me put a little twist to it. Suppose a kid went one year to a Jewish school, the next to an Islamic school, then a Catholic school, then a Hindu school, then a Buddhist school, then a Protestant Christian school, you can put the different religions in any order you want and add some if you want, last of all the kid was put into a Baha'i school... would the knowledge they had learned fit in a perfect order? Or, would you need to untangle a few misconceptions about what is truth and reality?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are literally misinterpreting another person's belief (say Hinduism) and saying it is Hinduism, saying you respect Hinduis, then saying you don't know much about Hindu, then say Bahaullah says that the Hindu scripture predicts the coming of Bahaullah, then you say that Hindu believe in the same god, and then disregard their culture and form as if these things don't shape their belief system.

This is there identity. Yes, you/bahai are making Hindu loose their identity when interpreted through Bahaullah. It would be same ol' same ol' if you don't say that you have unity among them.

Since you say you do, they must agree with you. They dont.

We believe in the concept of progressive Revelation and some of the Educators are named. We do not follow every sect of each religion. We believe in the 'essence' off every Faith not every tradition, law and custom.

Nobody must agree. It is all voluntary. Baha'is are people who agree with Baha'u'llah and there are only a few of us in the world.

I identify myself more with some aspects of Hinduism than when I was an atheist. So the Baha'i Faith if anything has opened my eyes to Hinduism not closed them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you want to believe in christianity, you do have to be a member (if you like) of the body of christ. You have to have like-minds. You have to throw away Bahaullah's writings as a authoritative text.

Many religions believe in god

But you are not following christianity without being part of the body of christ.



I'm treating each religion as it's own expression and it's own truth.

By doing so, I am respecting individual religions and if I wanted to follow a said religion, I would not go to a Hindu to know what Christians teach, I'd go to a Christian. I would not go to a Pagan to interpret Hindu sacred text, I would go to a Hindu.

I'm polytheist. Many truth. Many libraries. Many books. Stop making them all under one umbrella then you won't oppress religions who, like me, who would not rather for people like Bahai, Christians, and Muslims (among others) to either disregard, misinterpret, incorporate, or bluntly kill people rather than understanding their beliefs or leaving it alone.

By stating that we should accept what the believers say you are joining partners with God as Muslims would say. The Prophet is completely independent of His followers so if we say we must accept everything about a religion that the followers say and not just the essence or what the Educator taught them we are making His followers equal with Him and we do not think Christ and His followers are equal in station. One is the Educator, the other, the educated.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was just talking about the grade school analogy. But let me put a little twist to it. Suppose a kid went one year to a Jewish school, the next to an Islamic school, then a Catholic school, then a Hindu school, then a Buddhist school, then a Protestant Christian school, you can put the different religions in any order you want and add some if you want, last of all the kid was put into a Baha'i school... would the knowledge they had learned fit in a perfect order? Or, would you need to untangle a few misconceptions about what is truth and reality?

I think that one of the only major things that would have to be removed from all of them is the concept that one religion or prophet is not superior to another.

“Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute.

God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted”

“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you want to believe in christianity, you do have to be a member (if you like) of the body of christ. You have to have like-minds. You have to throw away Bahaullah's writings as a authoritative text.

Many religions believe in god

But you are not following christianity without being part of the body of christ.



I'm treating each religion as it's own expression and it's own truth.

By doing so, I am respecting individual religions and if I wanted to follow a said religion, I would not go to a Hindu to know what Christians teach, I'd go to a Christian. I would not go to a Pagan to interpret Hindu sacred text, I would go to a Hindu.

I'm polytheist. Many truth. Many libraries. Many books. Stop making them all under one umbrella then you won't oppress religions who, like me, who would not rather for people like Bahai, Christians, and Muslims (among others) to either disregard, misinterpret, incorporate, or bluntly kill people rather than understanding their beliefs or leaving it alone.

Who has the authority to decide who is a true believer in Christ?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The question is (for everyone): do you believe your faith is the best for everyone, or just for yourself?

I can only choose for myself not everyone.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do you understand what I am saying?

Expression=Truth

Truth=religion

Many expressions is many truths
Many truths exist because of different religions

Expressions/truth is the source
There are different sources/truths

I understand now. Are you aware that the words expression, truth, and religion have entirely different meanings?

I am not you and you are not me

Yes, I think I understand that one.

Unless you say yours is right and mine is wrong, Bahai religion doesn't make sense.

Ever wanted a computer update because your laptop just doesn't cut it anymore.....?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe that's the cognitive dissonance, when we're getting personal truth confused with universal truth.

You don't believe your religion or beliefs are facts like the sun and earth?

I don't understand that. Beliefs are facts for me. I can't figure a religion, defined as a religion, could be any other way unless that person is comfortable living in faith or doubt or so-so truth.

The bread and wine are symbolic.

No. They are literal. People do actually come together, commune, take the body of christ, thereby making christ present in the Eucharist. Guess you have to experience it from a spiritual perspective if you did only a ritual one.

It should relate to science and reason if we are to avoid compartmentalising our religious beliefs separate from everything else.

Religion is personal. To make a religion someone else's religion is very disrespectful. I'm an individualist in that everyone has their own truth. As an artist, I understand our art is a reflection of ourselves; it is a artist's truth (to those who make art their life). We understand the connection between our passions without making each of our art another's.

You have made your views clearly known as to how you consider Baha'is deprecate other people's belief.

It's a factual observation. Regardless if you disagree, it's black and white in Bahaullah's writings you quote and the websites I read. Nothing wrong to have your own truth. I encourage it. What I don't encourage is saying you believe in Hinduism and when you say what you (or another Bahai) knows about Hinduism, one of you say one, they don't know much about it and then still say Hindu belief claimed the coming of Bahaullah and believe Krishna to be a prophet. I know I looked it up and another Hindu corrected you guys. But our opinions I guess aren't taken into consideration. THAT is what I mean by depreciating a religion. The other side has to agree with you if you want to claim their religion is part of your own. No other religion I know does this. I find that odd.

My repeated response is the inevitability of clashing ideas when we have an interfaith debate. That's all it is.

Understanding ideas help from both parties, though. I keep asking you all if you understand where I come from. Never got an answer. Nor did I get an answer as to how or why. Just quoting Bahaullah scripture and saying you respect others and want to learn from them. That's not dialogue if we don't get beyond our differences.

Having discussions such as these can be helpful to distinguish truth from falsehood. Lets enjoy the moment.

Falsehood? According to who?

That was my point exactly. There is much we don't know that is true regardless of whether or not we recognise it. We need to step out of our comfort zones to better understand the reality of others faiths and in that way we become open to these unknown truths.

How do you do that if you say Hindu is a part of your faith and don't consider the correction of your belief to be true? How can you be open to other people's truths if you only see through the teachings of Bahaullah and not anyone elses? How would you personally see another person's truth without making all of them unified in foundation regardless their differing expressions?

Your website says take out the dogma, rituals, and so forth but then you have lectures, prayers, and things like that. That's confusing. Unless you're talking about a certain dogma, ritual, etc. I notice this and SGI Nichiren Buddhism and UU do this. Try to have unity among diversity without claiming one is following ritual even though without ritual (or habitual practices) how would your religion grow as a religion.

I think one of you have a good bias on religions with ritual and dogma. You are open to learn but I haven't heard you understand not just what I keep typing but why it is true.

I just find it odd that you don't consider your belief facts. That puzzles me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We believe in the concept of progressive Revelation and some of the Educators are named. We do not follow every sect of each religion. We believe in the 'essence' off every Faith not every tradition, law and custom.

My point is how can you believe the essence of their religion when the religious are telling you, there is no essence without tradition, law, and custom? They are embedded in the religion. Its' not new age.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Who has the authority to decide who is a true believer in Christ?

Religion doesn't need to be mystical to be common sense. Ask a christian question if a Bahai is a christian by their accepting christ but disagreeing with some of the fundamentals that make christianity what it is.

Authority? To christians, Christ himself. Not Bahullah.

You asked if you should just throw the words of Bahaullah away then. If you want to believe in christ in full not half (or luke warm) then you have to be a christian. The essence of christianity is built in their form. Without their form, you like many pagans belief the "essence" of christ but not christianity. However, they don't call what they believe christianity. That's respecting christians. So, that's the difference.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand now. Are you aware that the words expression, truth, and religion have entirely different meanings?

How so? My religion (what shapes who I am), is my truth. Since you are not me, there is no underlining foundation between our truths. Since it is a truth, to follow it, I express it. I do no separate that expression of truth from me. That's like separating a believer from his prayer to god. That prayer is an expression. Art is the same.

a : an act, process, or instance of representing in a medium (as words) : utterance freedom of expressionb (1) : something that manifests, embodies, or symbolizes something else this gift is an expression of my admiration for you (2) : a significant word or phrase (3) : a mathematical or logical symbol or a meaningful combination of symbols (4) : the detectable effect of a gene; als

My art is a medium for my truth. That's why they can't be separated.

1. b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
   
   
2. 2a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized: a transcendent fundamental or spiritual realityb : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true truths of thermodynamicsc : the body of true statements and propositions

They are not separated because they express "sincerity in action, character, and utterance" through a medium such as drawing, dancing, writing, and so forth; and, because art is a reflection (well, stronger Is) a part of the art, I can't separate the expression (say prayer) from the artist (the person praying). I would never say one person's prayer at its foundation is the same as another person's prayer regardless if they pray the same or different ways. That's disrespectful. Don't understand why Bahai believe that. I know what you believe. Just foreign with what you do with other religions. I never knew another religion who did this.

I don't understand how truth can't be someone's reality. It does say truth has to do with facts. Why would I believe something if it weren't a fact?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My purpose in coming to this corrupt world where the tyrants and traitors, by their acts of cruelty and oppression, have closed the doors of peace and tranquillity to all mankind, is to establish, through the power of God and His might, the forces of justice, trust, security and fa

How would you do this with everyone's agreement?

Christ taught he does not fix things. We can see him as an educator and he is not. He doesnt educate people because the words are not his own. Jesus doesnt call himself good. He humbles himself as a servant to god. He tells other people to be one body and puts emphasis on the people (not great teachers) so that the body worship god.

The Buddha says he is an educator and he wants to relieve suffering. He tells people that We have the enlightenment to end suffering. It doesnt come from god (for him any hindu god) but understanding and apppication of Knowledge.

You believe in god. He does not. How are two (and his followers) will agree with each other in order to change the world. You and The Buddha have similar goals. He does not see these goals a reflection of any god.

Krishna is a deity not an educator. We can see him as a deity in which we learn something. He is an incarnation of Vishnu. Though, taking out Hindu traditions and culture will make their religion and yours conflict.

How do you change the world to new if you dont agree with the forms other religions have in order to live and apply the same goals you want as a bahais?

Take out god, christ, The Dharma, Hindu culture and traditions, Muslim practices and Quran.

What is left? And how do you define whst they have left as a way to world peace IF depending on your answer they disagree with you about disregarding the form.?

 

[RESOLUTION]

I don't think we could locate too many bodies of people that died two thousand years ago. Doesn't mean they rose from the dead.

Actually they could locate bodies where the vultures were. Christ tomb was guarded for the full time until his resurrection.
A soldier would have been put to death for derelict of duty. Many things show his body raised. But you don't have to accept that but can you trust your own beliefs when you so easily abandon them like the Israelites did. They often abandoned the LORD for an idol especially Ba'al, even when THEY saw the miracles God did. You see everyone has to make his own decision don't they?

If your evidence is that we don't know where is body is, we can be certain he didn't rise from the dead.

Not my evidence at all.... Surely the only evidence for a believer should be that they know the truth as Christ said they would if they believe his words and obey them? Would appear you never bore fruit. But isn't being honest about our faith about receiving the promises of God. I cannot speak for you or for any other BELIEVER. But surely honesty especially to ourselves about God and his word is the reality of faith and works?

 

[Vinayaka]

What about the Christians who don't believe in the resurrection and feel disempowered to say anything because they risk being thrown out of their religion?
I certainly am critical of this belief and I make no apology for it.

The only difference is that I keep it to myself, while you go public (I think). In other words, what others believe doesn't bother me, while it bothers you enough to try to 'correct' them.

One could say the same for me in this thread, but originally I came in just to correct misconceptions about Hinduism, but as time wore on I got dug in deeper, alas! Again, I thank you for having the humility to actually say you know little about Hinduism. I used to know less about Bahai than I do now too.

 

[Vinayaka]

The question is (for everyone): do you believe your faith is the best for everyone, or just for yourself?

I think you know my answer to that, but it's worth reiterating ... to each his own!

 

[Vinayaka]

I have never pointed out any faults with any religion. We believe in the truth of all of them. You must be misunderstanding or reading something into my posts that are simply not there.

So you disagree with Bahai teachings that Bahalullah came to fix stuff from all the previous religions caught in their dogma? Then why did you quote that large passage?

 

[RESOLUTION]

We believe in Jesus as truth. But that there is no inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. This is what the priests and clergy teach not the Gospels.

God told the end from the beginning. It says in Isaiah.
Isaiah 46:10.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

We can never look at the word of God from a flesh perspective.
God has always planned and revealed his purpose to his people.

For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.

Before God all has a place and a purpose. It is God who takes the predominant place as Christ and all Prophets and Angels proceed from the Father. That does not come from man it comes from God. He shares his glory with no one as the ONLY God.

May be you have different views and I think there is nothing new in that. But where we take our views from makes a significant difference. Would be interested to know whom you believe Christ to be and what his purpose was.