Secret Chief
Very strong language
But that wasn't the fantasy sold. I don't suppose brexiters (tending to be older) were keenly voting for things a decade or two in the future.
Brexit votes by age 2016 | Statista
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How are we doing post-Brexit?
- Thread starter Altfish
- Start date
But that wasn't the fantasy sold. I don't suppose brexiters (tending to be older) were keenly voting for things a decade or two in the future.
Brexit votes by age 2016 | Statista
Blame whatever you want but if the British public had a choice and could
I didn’t vote for benefits
.
I think that following the disaster that brexit has become that the British public choice would be different now. In a recent statistica poll those who thought it was a bad decision to leave Europe outweighed those who thought it was the right decision 48% to 39% with 13% dont know
Yes the British public are eventually getting a little sense.
But the result is still the same,it’s a pointless pole.
Augustus
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So?
Don't you think decision should be judged on its actual effects rather than the political and media rhetoric that surrounded the decision?
What do you think?
It is:
a) possible Brexit results in benefits
b) impossible that Brexit results in benefits
If a), would you expect these benefits to:
a) appear pretty much straight away
b) take some time to develop
It's fair enough to prefer not to take the risk, but unless you think it is impossible that Brexit could turn out positively, the argument that it's bad because there are no instant benefits seems a bit odd.
Nope, polls are not pointless even if they show how the mood has changed. Sorry you don't like it but yes, the mood has changed. Why, because the lies are coming home to roost.
But it's ok. You got sovereignty back.
Exactly,wasn’t that the issue?.
Secret Chief
Very strong language
Ok. So what was/were your reason/s?
Democracy.
Secret Chief
Very strong language
It was sold on lies. The effects currently are negative. Politically and economically I see it as bad long term. We voluntarily left the world's largest trading bloc for some Little England reactionary fantasy. I judge it on both - the politics and the economics.
Secret Chief
Very strong language
We voted for the MEPs. Our FPTP system is anti-democratic.
We voted for meps great,I agree with FPTP system needs to go but it’s too late to change the result.
Secret Chief
Very strong language
Too late to change that result but a (de facto at least) rejoining is entirely possible. In fact given the age stats I quoted above I reckon it's likely.
That’s way beyond optimistic,it would be a sad day but optimism doesnt change results, we left.
Secret Chief
Very strong language
I agree; the result stands. My optimism is for the future.
One of the issues, another was funding the NHS from the money saved but of course that was a lie. And another was getting rid of the immigrants and look where thats got ya
And of course you have always had your sovereignty, it is embedded in the membership of the EU. But boris forgot to tell you that
Secret Chief
Very strong language
Secret Chief
Very strong language
Augustus
…
The whole debate was bad-faith, dishonest and identitarian. On one side you had plenty of jingoism and EU scaremongering, and on the other plenty of snobbery and class hatred alongside the most hagiographical eulogising of a very flawed and undemocratic, ideologically motivated bureaucracy that has a stated goal of taking ever more power and control.
Some people benefitted from the EU as they could get artisan candles from Italy, holiday in Tuscany and could benefit from the exploitation of cheap immigrant low-skilled labour, and cheaper immigrant tradespeople. Fortunately, the cheap immigrant labour didn't move in next door to them though or affect Charlotte and Toby's schooling. Supporting the EU also fed into their 'cosmopolitan' identity and made them feel they were 'on the right side of history' in an uncertain world.
Other people had far less clear benefit. As we see now, wages in certain industries were suppressed and corporations exploited cheap labour rather than offering better terms and conditions. The same people who had their wages suppressed also had to deal with the consequences of large scale immigration into their areas, pressure on schools and housing, etc. "Progressives" then told them if they complained about this then they were stupid racists because the EU was obviously very good indeed.
While obviously this is a simplification, it is also approximately true for many people.
Humans are emotional, over the years the smug contempt of the progressive intelligentsia, those on social media, etc. did far more to boost the cause of Brexit than the lies of people like Farage. It wasn't 'right wing media' that fractured the traditional left wing alliance of the working class and urban progressives, but changing values among progressives. If progressives call people stupid, backward racists enough times and show they care nothing for their experiences, it's not surprising that they aren't exactly lining up in support.
We'll see. My guess is that the EU won't survive long term, at least in its current form, so the debate will prove academic. The timescale depends on continued success, as I doubt it can withstand too many sufficient sized crises that pit member states against each other (the last GFC was one such event, and it showed quite clearly that many within the EU cared more for protecting the Euro than helping the citizens of Greece).
For all the bemoaning of how 'racist' Britain is, most EU countries have far higher levels of support for actual far-right parties (France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece, etc.) and the EU is a significant factor in this, and as an institution, it seems incapable of learning from its mistakes regarding 'ever closer union' and unaccountable, technocratic nature.
Maybe the fantasy will end up being that of the liberal internationalists. Time alone will tell.
I think that must be one of the very few times he opened his mouth and lies didn't vomit out