How bad is the anti-trans movement going to get?

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeesh. I can't believe how bad its getting. The legislation alone has blown up to a degree I had hoped we would never see here. But I guess we can't really underestimate the cornered conservative movement.

Bottom line is its getting real real real bad. Its already super bad in some states. Not "getting bad" it "is bad". We are up and over that hill. Nearly every single state has proposed legislation that is dark age draconian territory for trans folks. Unless we have some sort of sweeping national law passed while there is the slight majority in congress I don't have a good feeling about the upcoming years. The Trans Genocide is now in phase two it would seem and I wish I were being hyperbolic when I say this. I hope there won't be a phase three but to be honest I had really hoped it wouldn't be the point we are already at.

Florida is of course leading the way. What a time to live in the Sunshine state and be queer as hell.

What genocide? Do you know many have left those states as a response? Yes, things are very bad, but the term genocide was literally coined to describe what the Nazis did to the Jews. Armenia saw a genocide. Cambodia saw a genocide. It can be retroactively applied to Native American tribes.
We just are not looking like that. Victims of fascism, yes, but that doesn't mean it's genocidal.

 

[fantome profane]

What genocide? Do you know many have left those states as a response? Yes, things are very bad, but the term genocide was literally coined to describe what the Nazis did to the Jews. Armenia saw a genocide. Cambodia saw a genocide. It can be retroactively applied to Native American tribes.
We just are not looking like that. Victims of fascism, yes, but that doesn't mean it's genocidal.

What I see happening is a deliberate attempt to eliminate the existence of an identifiable group. That is not actually the definition of genocide, but it is pretty close.

If we stand by and let this happen, what won't we let happen?

 

[Revoltingest]

What I see happening is a deliberate attempt to eliminate the existence of an identifiable group. That is not actually the definition of genocide, but it is pretty close.

That's some pretty creative thinking you gots there.
But the group wouldn't be eliminated. They'd continue
existing, but without having transitioned. And this
wouldn't apply to all...just younger ones.
It's not "genocide".

You remind me of claims that cochlear implants were
genocide of deaf people.

 

[fantome profane]

That's some pretty creative thinking you gots there.
But the group wouldn't be eliminated. They'd continue
existing, but without having transitioned. And this
wouldn't apply to all...just younger ones.
It's not "genocide".

You remind me of claims that cochlear implants were
genocide of deaf people.

I am so tired of having to explain this, but I will try one more time.

The term genocide refers to the destruction of a culture or nation. You can destroy a culture without having to actually kill anyone. In Canada there was a deliberate attempt to destroy the native culture through residential schools where they were forbidden to speak their language or practice their culture. The stated goal of this was to eliminate their culture. Those children (at least some of them) would continue to exist, but the culture would be eliminated. That is genocide.

And notice I did not say this was exactly the same thing, but I do think it is close, very very close.

And no, it is not just "the younger ones" (as if that would make it better). There are bills in multiple states that if passed would ban gender affirming care regardless of age. And if those bills go through other states will extend the ban to all age groups.

(and people choose cochlear implants, or choose not to. Those who claim that is genocide are on the ones trying to prevent people from making their own decisions about their medical care, much like the anti-trans bigots are.)

 

[Revoltingest]

I am so tired of having to explain this, but I will try one more time.

The term genocide refers to the destruction of a culture or nation. You can destroy a culture without having to actually kill anyone. In Canada there was a deliberate attempt to destroy the native culture through residential schools where they were forbidden to speak their language or practice their culture. The stated goal of this was to eliminate their culture. Those children (at least some of them) would continue to exist, but the culture would be eliminated. That is genocide.

And notice I did not say this was exactly the same thing, but I do think it is close, very very close.

And no, it is not just "the younger ones" (as if that would make it better). There are bills in multiple states that if passed would ban gender affirming care regardless of age. And if those bills go through other states will extend the ban to all age groups.

(and people choose cochlear implants, or choose not to. Those who claim that is genocide are on the ones trying to prevent people from making their own decisions about their medical care, much like the anti-trans bigots are.)

The term is still histrionically used.

Genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know we're in a post-dictionary age.
Is it now post-wikipedia too?

Histrionic statements destroy credibility.
To advocate for a group or issue, we've the
responsibility to not defeat our own efforts
by causing eye rolling & face palming.

 

[fantome profane]

The term is still histrionically used.

Genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I know we're in a post-dictionary age.
Is it now post-wikipedia too?

Histrionic statements destroy credibility.
To advocate for a group or issue, we've the
responsibility to not defeat our own efforts
by causing eye rolling & face palming.

Did you read the link you posted? Doesn't seem like you did.

"New conceptions require new terms. By "genocide" we mean the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group. This new word, coined by the author to denote an old practice in its modern development, is made from the ancient Greek word genos (race, tribe) and the Latin cide (killing), thus corresponding in its formation to such words as tyrannicide, homicide, infanticide, etc. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.[15]"

 

[Revoltingest]

Did you read the link you posted? Doesn't seem like you did.

I did.
You should too.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Genocide?
Piffle.
Beware expecting the fed to pass laws for you.
It's also the power to pass laws against you.

The Trans Genocide is the term used to describe the events especially as of recent for the attempts to stamp out trans folks. If you want to argue it isn't a genocide I suppose take it up with the people who invented the the phrase. I am going to take the stance that we don't have to wait to the point of being gassed in chambers before we are allowed to be angry about a group being targeted and attacked.

Currently in two states it is illegal to be trans. In one state we have a trans hotline to report alleged trans people to the state. In Florida if a Child says they are trans the state can abduct the child even if they aren't a citizen of Florida but just happen to be across state lines. You are not allowed to mention that transgender people or gay people even exist in any public education sector K-12 in Florida and many other states also chiming in. We have a national figure claiming that "transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely" and "Its all or nothing". I know that people argue semantics about what he meant when he said what he said but I don't see how it can be misconstrued what is his listeners think.

The constant depiction of trans people as groomers and pedophiles when it shows time and time again that there is no link to child abuse, grooming or pedophilia and trans people. Nor is there any link to abuse against women from trans women in women spaces. Yet that is all we hear in a constant stream of lines in a multi billion dollar smear campaign that is ending in the most prolific age of hate crimes and anti trans legislation we have ever seen.

 

[Friend of Mara]

What genocide? Do you know many have left those states as a response? Yes, things are very bad, but the term genocide was literally coined to describe what the Nazis did to the Jews. Armenia saw a genocide. Cambodia saw a genocide. It can be retroactively applied to Native American tribes.
We just are not looking like that. Victims of fascism, yes, but that doesn't mean it's genocidal.

If we want to turn this into a semantic debate I can go all day. But lets draw a line in the sand real quick just to make sure neither of us waste time. Is what is happening currently to trans people reprehensible with the absolute intent by the powers at be to remove them from public view and potentially life? Are the politicians in mass creating laws and living conditions in which they have been made keenly aware of how much it will increase the suicide and hate crime rate against trans folk? And yet they do it anyway. Because that isn't an unfortunate accident. That is the purpose of what they are doing. they aren't doing it to save the children or to protect moral decency. Its to specifically hurt and harm a minority group into extinction.


So I will agree. Are trans people being rounded up and killed by the state at this very moment. No. Were the Jews at the beginning of WWII. Also no. IF MTG and her ilk were in total control of this country would we be? Honestly probably. The intent is the same. The mechanics are the same. The only difference is how far we have currently gone down this path. I see no reason to not call it what it is. There are stages of genocide. 10 specifically. Stage 9 of 10 is the extermination phase. In America we are clearly and objectively on stage 6 out of 10. Arguably and less clearly on stage 7 out of 10 depending on who you ask.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Trans Genocide is the term used to describe the events especially as of recent for the attempts to stamp out trans folks. If you want to argue it isn't a genocide I suppose take it up with the people who invented the the phrase. I am going to take the stance that we don't have to wait to the point of being gassed in chambers before we are allowed to be angry about a group being targeted and attacked.

Talk of gas chambers...it's another example of giving
the opposing side ammunition to dismiss concerns.
Also, no one is preventing you from being angry.
But ya gotta do something productive, eg, advocate,
vote, educate others.

Currently in two states it is illegal to be trans. In one state we have a trans hotline to report alleged trans people to the state. In Florida if a Child says they are trans the state can abduct the child even if they aren't a citizen of Florida but just happen to be across state lines. You are not allowed to mention that transgender people or gay people even exist in any public education sector K-12 in Florida and many other states also chiming in. We have a national figure claiming that "transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely" and "Its all or nothing". I know that people argue semantics about what he meant when he said what he said but I don't see how it can be misconstrued what is his listeners think.

Some links to support such astounding claims would be nice.
I'm skeptical because prior claims of "genocide" & talk of
gas chambers suggest histrionics.

The constant depiction of trans people as groomers and pedophiles when it shows time and time again that there is no link to child abuse, grooming or pedophilia and trans people. Nor is there any link to abuse against women from trans women in women spaces. Yet that is all we hear in a constant stream of lines in a multi billion dollar smear campaign that is ending in the most prolific age of hate crimes and anti trans legislation we have ever seen.

There is cause to hope the sky isn't falling. I notice in
conversations with people I'd expect to think transitioning
is utterly crazy & wrong, actually know someone who
did transition, & they're somewhat accepting.
Familiarity can fight such bigotry. DeSantis needs a
child who's trans. So do SCOTUS justices. The real world
can challenge beliefs arbitrarily imposed by religion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

... DeSantis needs a
child who's trans. So do SCOTUS justices. The real world
can challenge beliefs arbitrarily imposed by religion.

Yeah, you need a child who is poor and crazy and all the rest. And holds an evil world view. You are not special, your religion is just natural and secular.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Talk of gas chambers...it's another example of giving
the opposing side ammunition to dismiss concerns.
Also, no one is preventing you from being angry.
But ya gotta do something productive, eg, advocate,
vote, educate others.

In this thread? On this forum?

Some links to support such astounding claims would be nice.
I'm skeptical because prior claims of "genocide" & talk of
gas chambers suggest histrionics.

Which claims are in dispute of? Do you want me to link you to the few hundred bills that are currently in state congresses across the land or just the few dozen that have currently passed?

There is cause to hope the sky isn't falling. I notice in
conversations with people I'd expect to think transitioning
is utterly crazy & wrong, actually know someone who
did transition, & they're somewhat accepting.
Familiarity can fight such bigotry. DeSantis needs a
child who's trans. So do SCOTUS justices. The real world
can challenge beliefs arbitrarily imposed by religion.

The problem is that many of these people don't actually care about trans folks. It is the current boogyman of the day and they are attempting to harm them to galvanize their base. Just like Wokeism was and CRT was and BLM was and the caravan of migrants was and the covid vaccine was and Benghazi was and the emails were and Obama's birth certificate was and Islam terrorist was and China was and the gays and very very recently Abortion. The last one is important because that was the single issue voter turnout magic button that helped them more than any other for years and years and years. Arguably this single issue gave Trump the presidency over Hillary. But now they are a dog that caught the car they were chasing. Now they need a new boogieman because they have fewer voters than they did 4 years ago and no real platform to stand on.

 

[Revoltingest]

In this thread? On this forum?

Wherever useful.

Which claims are in dispute of?

"Currently in two states it is illegal to be trans."

Do you want me to link you to the few hundred bills that are currently in state congresses across the land or just the few dozen that have currently passed?

Let's start with the one above,
lest this become too involved.

The problem is that many of these people don't actually care about trans folks. It is the current boogyman of the day and they are attempting to harm them to galvanize their base. Just like Wokeism was and CRT was and BLM was and the caravan of migrants was and the covid vaccine was and Benghazi was and the emails were and Obama's birth certificate was and Islam terrorist was and China was and the gays and very very recently Abortion. The last one is important because that was the single issue voter turnout magic button that helped them more than any other for years and years and years. Arguably this single issue gave Trump the presidency over Hillary. But now they are a dog that caught the car they were chasing. Now they need a new boogieman because they have fewer voters than they did 4 years ago and no real platform to stand on.

That's a whole lotta new topics.
Let's keep things simple.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Wherever useful.

Yeah, ain't moral and cultural relativism great.

 

[fantome profane]

But ya gotta do something productive, eg, advocate,
vote, educate others.

I believe that in this thread has been a honest attempt to educate. It doesn't seem like it has been totally successful.

Doesn't mean we should stop trying.

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe that in this thread has been a honest attempt to educate. It doesn't seem like it has been totally successful.

Doesn't mean we should stop trying.

Don't stop.

 

[fantome profane]

Don't stop.

Are you willing to be educated?

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you willing to be educated?

Is this retort an objection to saying
don't stop trying to improve things?
You're an odd duck.

 

[metis]

The problem is that many of these people don't actually care about trans folks. It is the current boogyman of the day and they are attempting to harm them to galvanize their base. Just like Wokeism was and CRT was and BLM was and the caravan of migrants was and the covid vaccine was and Benghazi was and the emails were and Obama's birth certificate was and Islam terrorist was and China was and the gays and very very recently Abortion. The last one is important because that was the single issue voter turnout magic button that helped them more than any other for years and years and years. Arguably this single issue gave Trump the presidency over Hillary. But now they are a dog that caught the car they were chasing. Now they need a new boogieman because they have fewer voters than they did 4 years ago and no real platform to stand on.

With the Pubs, it's their "culture wars" strategy since they have nothing else to offer. And as we've seen, so many have allowed themselves to be suckered by this contrived nonsense. They didn't even have a party platform in 2020 as they seriously have nothing to offer but continue to play their "Party of No" game.

 

[fantome profane]

Is this retort an objection to saying
don't stop trying to improve things?
You're an odd duck.

It wasn't a "retort". It wasn't even an objection.

It was just a question.

I didn't intend it to be offensive in anyway.