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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Skywalker said:
The Old Testament prophesies that this Messiah, this Son who would be "Immanuel, God with us," would truly be the incarnation of Almighty God.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
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Terrible translation and interpretation to justify a religious agenda. The original Hebrew as clearly understood in context does not translate to as 'Son of God' incarnate. Jews who know Hebrew understand the corruption of these citations.

First hint: Hebrew does not have punctuations added to the translation in Western Bibles.
 
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
No, they were reading about two visits from two different Messiahs.

The Bible does not support ANYTHING you believe about Jesus returning as a Conquering King, coming to deliver His people from worldly oppression.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

All the Bible verses about building a Kingdom refer to Baha'u'llah, but Christians mistakenly believed they were about Jesus. You can can keep believing that Jesus is coming, but believing won't make Him come. It seems to me it is a waste of time to keep waiting for something that is never going to happen, just as it is a waste of my time to keep posting the same verses over and over and over again, since they fall on deaf ears.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
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The rabbis also used to wonder if there were going to be three Messiahs, because it is written that He would be born in Bethlehem, that God would call Him out of Egypt, and that He would be called a Nazarene.

They couldn't imagine one man fulfilling all three requirements. But Jesus was born in Bethlehem, was taken by his parents into Egypt to escape being murdered by Herod, and lived there until God told Joseph it was OK to return to Israel. Then they went to live in Nazareth, where Jesus grew up and learned and worked until he was thirty.

If it was difficult to imagine one man fulfilling only those three requirements of Messiah, imagine contemplating the odds for the 300 prophecies that have come true in Jesus!

First, you would have to go down to the neutron, proton, electron level of an atom to get a sample size big enough. There just aren't enough other items in the universe to describe the unlikelihood of this happening. We know it is absolutely impossible for man to predict the future with 100 percent accuracy. Certainly not to this magnitude. Only God could do that, and He did!
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
The rabbis also used to wonder if there were going to be three Messiahs, because it is written that He would be born in Bethlehem, that God would call Him out of Egypt, and that He would be called a Nazarene.

They couldn't imagine one man fulfilling all three requirements. But Jesus was born in Bethlehem, was taken by his parents into Egypt to escape being murdered by Herod, and lived there until God told Joseph it was OK to return to Israel. Then they went to live in Nazareth, where Jesus grew up and learned and worked until he was thirty.

If it was difficult to imagine one man fulfilling only those three requirements of Messiah, imagine contemplating the odds for the 300 prophecies that have come true in Jesus!

First, you would have to go down to the neutron, proton, electron level of an atom to get a sample size big enough. There just aren't enough other items in the universe to describe the unlikelihood of this happening. We know it is absolutely impossible for man to predict the future with 100 percent accuracy. Certainly not to this magnitude. Only God could do that, and He did!
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Where does it say that he would be called a "Nazarene"? To my knowledge that was one of the errors of Matthew that cannot be found in traditional Hebrew texts.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Nope, they do not appear to do that at all. Not a Nazarene, not even a tangerine. How on Earth do you think that they do that?
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Many prophets and other Old Testament writers said that the Messiah would be despised and considered of low esteem. For example, Isaiah 53:3 said, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Zechariah is another prophet who spoke about the lowliness of the Messiah. Zechariah 9:9–10, depicts a Messiah who is riding on a donkey, in lowly fashion.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Many prophets and other Old Testament writers said that the Messiah would be despised and considered of low esteem. For example, Isaiah 53:3 said, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Zechariah is another prophet who spoke about the lowliness of the Messiah. Zechariah 9:9–10, depicts a Messiah who is riding on a donkey, in lowly fashion.
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That has nothing to do with him being a "Nazarene".
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Many prophets and other Old Testament writers said that the Messiah would be despised and considered of low esteem. For example, Isaiah 53:3 said, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”
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Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was esteemed by many men.

Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow. The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the latter days.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
If it was difficult to imagine one man fulfilling only those three requirements of Messiah, imagine contemplating the odds for the 300 prophecies that have come true in Jesus!
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The problem is all the other prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill, and as such the Jews knew that Jesus was not the Messiah who they were waiting for, not the man who would fulfill, or usher in the fulfillment of, the end times prophecies.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was esteemed by many men.

Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow. The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the latter days.
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Jesus was rejected by most men. Thinking he's a good man or a preacher is different from believing He is God the Creator and God the Savior.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Matthew 7:13)
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Jesus was rejected by most men. Thinking he's a good man or a preacher is different from believing He is God the Creator and God the Savior.
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Jesus was more than a good man or a preacher and he was a Savior but Jesus was not God the Creator or God the Savior. That was not who Jesus ever claimed to be. Rather this was what was decided upon that Jesus was at the Council of Nicaea, and sadly, most Christians have believed it ever since.
Skywalker said:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Matthew 7:13)
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Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

That was written and applied only to when Christianity was the narrow way, when there were very few Christians in the first centuries, but Christianity is no longer the narrow way because about 30% of the world population is now Christians. Given that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, Christianity is now "the wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Just as Christianity was the small gate and the narrow road that led to eternal life in the first centuries when there were few Christians, the Baha'i Faith is now the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in the first centuries since its inception.

Many or most people do not believe in the Baha’i Faith because it is the new religion at the narrow gate. Below are the primary reasons why most people do not believe in a new religion.

The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
 
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