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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Ehav4Ever said:
Even bigger than that. Why is it that this was unknown to the first Jewish Christians and all of Christianity until the Hebrew Roots and Sacred Name Christians started promoting these ideas about two decades or so ago?

d2ef2de17b077420d0120bd6f4c505f0.jpeg
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Not all Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians believe are Hebrew Roots.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
Let me make it a bit clearer.

Isaiah 59:20. 'He shall come as redeemer to Zion,
To those in Jacob who turn back from sin
- declares the LORD.'

So, even to a simpleton like me, this passage is clear enough. There will be some in the nation, Jacob, who will turn back from sin, and others who will not.

Now, let's add another scripture. This time from Jeremiah 31:33,34.
'But such is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after these days - declares the LORD: I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, "Heed the LORD"; for all of them, from the least of them to the greatest, shall heed Me - declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquities,
And remember their sins no more.'

Jeremiah tells us that all Israel will be saved.

Now, a little application of logic. If all Israel is saved, but all Jacob is not saved, can the two names refer to all the same people? My thinking says that the two are different.

Can we agree on this distinction?
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No. This is ridiculous.
Jacob is Israel. They are the same.

The context of Isaiah is talking about before the Messianic Age. This is a time where G-d's fury will be unleashed. From verse 20, we see that Israel will not be spared from His fury. However those who repent, will be spared from G-d's fury.

The passage in Jeremiah is describing an event after this point. G-d is gathering Israel because Jacob has already been redeemed (v9-10). This makes sense because they're the same. We repented of the sins that sent us into exile and have been redeemed of the, so now G-d is gathering in the exiled.
The passage continues. Everyone's happy. All the people already know G-d. There's no need for repentance any more, no one will be sinning. There's no need for a time where G-d's fury will be unleashed. So we can see that this is talking about the people who remained after G-d's fury was unleashed.
 
ayin

ayin

Member
dybmh said:
"... the Blessed God shall come down teaching; His death shall bring ... "

God can die? That's an odd definition of a God.

I rate this: Not super convincing. But nice try :)
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God in His divine nature cannot die, but God in His human nature he could. YHWH became man, and as man he was crucified.
Zech 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication; and they will look upon me whom they have pierced, and they will mourn over him like the mourning over the only son, and bitterly grieve over him as one bitterly grieves over the firstborn.
 
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ayin

ayin

Member
dybmh said:
The problem with this one is the equivilance of aleph as God. Aleph is a chief, that's true. But equating a leader to God is... well... you're still thinking to small. Your version of God is much smaller compared to the Jewish version of God. So it's just not making any impact.
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The original name of the first letter is not Aleph but El, which means god or mighty one. This name is often used in the Bible for God Almighty.
 
ayin

ayin

Member
From Alef to Tav. If one writes all original letters of the alphabet in a line, then one recognizes that the ox(Alef) looks to the left, Hebrew is read from right to left, where does the ox finally arrive if he has run through all letters? At the cross(Tav). God(the ox) has arrived at the cross, and has finished his plan.
3-AlefTavcovenant.png
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
ayin said:
From Alef to Tav. If one writes all original letters of the alphabet in a line, then one recognizes that the ox(Alef) looks to the left, Hebrew is read from right to left, where does the ox finally arrive if he has run through all letters? At the cross(Tav). God(the ox) has arrived at the cross, and has finished his plan.
3-AlefTavcovenant.png
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Wait...so now the Alef is also a cross? I'm confused. And god is a bull? How did that happen? Yet you folks deny being pagan. Can't get much more pagan than worshipping a bull...
 
ayin

ayin

Member
YoursTrue said:
King James Bible John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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What about this, is Israel no longer Jacob because they are both separated from each other in a sentence?

[Isa 14:1] For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, AND will yet choose Israel, and will appoint them to their land.
[Gen 49:7] I will scatter them in Jacob AND disperse them in Israel.
[Ps 105:23] And Israel came into Egypt, AND Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.
 
ayin

ayin

Member
Harel13 said:
Wait...so now the Alef is also a cross? I'm confused.
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Where did I say that Alef is a cross? Alef is the ox, not the cross.
Harel13 said:
And god is a bull? How did that happen? Yet you folks deny being pagan. Can't get much more pagan than worshipping a bull...
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Seriously? Are you taking this literally? When David says, "God is my rock" do you take that literally too?
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
ayin said:
Where did I say that Alef is a cross? Alef is the ox, not the cross.
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Not you. It seemed that way from the graphic you brought.
ayin said:
Seriously? Are you taking this literally? When David says, "God is my rock" do you take that literally too?
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You seemed to be insinuating some sort of godly bull ramming into something. It's not quite like a stone/anchor metaphor.
 
ayin

ayin

Member
rosends said:
So alef is an ox, but the actual letter's name is El which is God, so God is an ox. I thought we left all that bull in Egypt.
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Yes, the original name of the first letter was El. Hebrew Alphabet Chart | AHRC

In the Hebrew language, God is symbolic called an ox for its strength. Also because the ox was used as a sacrifice in the Tanakh God is called an ox for God is the final and ultimate sacrifice. He is the ox on the cross.
God is of course not literally an ox. God is also called lion, leopard, bear, and rock in the Tanakh, but only symbolic and not literally.
 
rosends

rosends

Well-Known Member
ayin said:
Yes, the original name of the first letter was El. Hebrew Alphabet Chart | AHRC

In the Hebrew language, God is symbolic called an ox for its strength. Also because the ox was used as a sacrifice in the Tanakh God is called an ox for God is the final and ultimate sacrifice. He is the ox on the cross.
God is of course not literally an ox. God is also called lion, leopard, bear, and rock in the Tanakh, but only symbolic and not literally.
Click to expand...
Oxen aren't on crosses. Goats are also sacrifices. None is ultimate.
 
ayin

ayin

Member
Harel13 said:
Not you. It seemed that way from the graphic you brought.
Click to expand...
The ox on the right is the letter Aleph, the cross on the left is the letter Tav. In the middle you see God(the ox) hanging on the cross(Tav) as a sacrifice.
YHWH said: I am the FIRST and the LAST, in other words: I am the ALEPH and TAV,
I am the SACRIFICE on the CROSS.
3-AlefTavcovenant.png

Harel13 said:
You seemed to be insinuating some sort of godly bull ramming into something. It's not quite like a stone/anchor metaphor.
Click to expand...
Of course, I don't believe that God is an ox, I see it methaphorically.
 
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