How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Rival]

Let me say this. Many have not returned to Israel. I'm speaking of religious people. I will repeat that it seems that the website has commentary by a student of M. Schneerson, he also a rabbi. Now that we've settled that, perhaps we can discuss some of the things written on that website. You're in Britain, I'm in the U.S. It's getting way past my bedtime. Goodnight, or good morning, whichever side of the Atlantic you're on.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at here? I agree with you. None of the messianic stuff has happened yet. Rabbi Schneerson is dead; he clearly wasn't the Mashiach. Not everyone who followed/follows this Rabbi believed he was; it's just a sect within a sect that believes he was.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So we're waiting for a moment when the entire world votes to set up the Kingdom and worship the God of Judaism? And Jesus thought that would happen in his lifetime?

Really? What IQ do you attribute to Jesus?

And now it would be a moment like nothing we've seen in the past 2000 years and are exquisitely unlikely to see in the next 2000 years?

Really?

It's not about votes, but about faith in Christ. The message has to be taken to the four corners of the earth before the return of the King. God gives as much opportunity as is possible, for He is a merciful God.

When the time is right, the King will return to set up his Kingdom on earth. The last to receive him will be, we are told, those that first received the invitation, the nation of Israel.

Jesus tells us this because he had the IQ of God!

 

[rosends]

What information from scripture do you have to back up your assertion? See when I was studying the Bible I asked a rabbinical student if the Messiah had two appearances, and he just told me that Jews don't believe that. No scripture, no explanation other than to say that a false Messiah would die. Nothing else. What do you say about that and why do you say it?

The Jewish messianic concept is not fully fleshed out in the biblical text, but neither is Judaism, nor has it ever been (by mainstream Jewish understanding). Judaism is built on twin foundational content -- the written biblical text and the complementary (and contemporary) oral law, and the explanations of each. So ideas like the messiah are more fully explored in the oral law and the commentaries. There are books and books by a variety of scholars and some of what each says might be seen as arguing with details others have said because a lot is interpretation and not a function of black-letter law.

In terms of the "messiah will die" -- this is something that exists in one understanding of one opinion about a possible messianic timeline. A national leader who inspires Jews through war time will be killed at the end of the war and replaced with a peace time leader. But even then, certain prophecies would have to be filled etc, and this is only one idea among many, one which even adherents say is not inevitable.

 

[blü 2]

It's not about votes, but about faith in Christ. The message has to be taken to the four corners of the earth before the return of the King. God gives as much opportunity as is possible, for He is a merciful God.

No, you forget it was going to happen in the lifetime of some of Jesus' audience.

Nor did anyone in the Roman Empire know about North America, South America, the Pacific Islands, Australia ─ and so on. Nor were any of those places Christian in the following 1500 years.

So whichever way you look at it, it was a dud, it didn't happen, the show did not go on.

When the time is right, the King will return to set up his Kingdom on earth. The last to receive him will be, we are told, those that first received the invitation, the nation of Israel.

My bible says nothing of the kind. Instead it says the Son of Man will have the Kingdom in place SOON, certainly before 100 CE.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, you forget it was going to happen in the lifetime of some of Jesus' audience.

Nor did anyone in the Roman Empire know about North America, South America, the Pacific Islands, Australia ─ and so on. Nor were any of those places Christian in the following 1500 years.

So whichever way you look at it, it was a dud, it didn't happen, the show did not go on.
My bible says nothing of the kind. Instead it says the Son of Man will have the Kingdom in place SOON, certainly before 100 CE.

It did happen within the lifetime of some of Jesus' audience, but not for the nation of Israel. The invisible Kingdom is present for those who demonstrate faith in Jesus Christ. The Kingdom is not visible and complete until the return of Christ, and inclusion of the repentant within the nation of Israel.

The extension of God's kingdom has been taking place ever since the day of Pentecost, and continues even now.

 

[Skywalker]

Just like everyone else, right? Except he's meant to die, after he does all the stuff he needs to do that makes him the Mashiach - otherwise how can we possibly know he's the Mashiach? If you tell me you're an artist but I've never seen any of your art and you won't show me any, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're not really an artist.


Dead people don't tend to come back until the time appointed for everyone during the end days. In fact, I don't know a single person who has come back from the dead. When you're dead that's kind of it.


This is your belief.


I don't disagree that people can and will be resurrected, but not because of nay verses in the Christian Testament.


Not relevent to me.

Thats why the verse about the Messiah being no more doesn't mean that he won't resurrect. The Messiah prolonging his days means resurrection.

 

[Skywalker]

So then, SW, Messiah means -- anointed.

Daniel 12:1-4.

At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end. Many shall be running back and forth, and evil shall increase.”

The resurrection of the dead is also talked about in these verses. Resurrection in the Old Testament

 

[Skywalker]

What does Messiah mean, do you think? By the way, and I do mean by the way, God doesn't need to be resurrected.

The Messiah would teach us how to live, be our mediator and advocate before God, would die for our sins so that we could be forgiven, and then he would righteously rule the nations of the world from Jerusalem when he returns at the Mount of Olives.

 

[Skywalker]

Sure did. They never win, those that scheme against God.

Regards Tony

When do you think the Battle of Armageddon was?

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, you have no idea what I was saying. Your reply made made me say outloud: What?! As in what in the world is this person talking about.

Moses was a Messiah, or Christ. So was Cyrus. Isaiah 45 foretold Cyrus by name hundreds of years before he even was born.

The Bible refers to 144,000 anointed, or chosen ones who will rule with Jesus Christ in heaven.

All the kings of Israel were anointed, or chosen by God.

The fact that there are more than one anointed or chosen one, Messiah, Christ, is obvious.

That does not change the fact that the word Messiah, means anointed one, which means chosen one, which is what the Christ is. They all mean the same thing: Messiah, anointed, chosen one, Christ. It's all the same thing.

Messiah means chosen one of God. Moses was the first Messiah by God, the mediator between God and the nation of Israel of the Law Covenant. Jesus is the mediator between God and man of the new covenant, the greater Messiah that came after Moses.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the anointed one, the chosen one. Jesus was anointed with holy spirit in 29 C. E.

Moses being like a mediator between Israel and God is why Jesus being a mediator is consistent wiith the Old Testament doctrine of the Messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

I Samuel 10:1
Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on his head and kissed him and said, “Has not the Lord anointed you to be prince over his people Israel? And you shall reign over the people of the Lord and you will save them from the hand of their surrounding enemies. And this shall be the sign to you that the Lord has anointed you to be prince over his heritage.

I Samuel 16:12-13
And he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the Lord said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he.” 13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

I kings 1:39
There Zadok the priest took the horn of oil from the tent and anointed Solomon. Then they blew the trumpet, and all the people said, “Long live King Solomon!”

Isaiah 45:1
Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:

That doesn't change that the term Messiah means the annointed one. The term "the" means the office of the annointed one.

 

[rosends]

like "the" in "the ice cream has melted" means "the office of the ice cream has melted"!

 

[Skywalker]

Just like everyone else, right? Except he's meant to die, after he does all the stuff he needs to do that makes him the Mashiach - otherwise how can we possibly know he's the Mashiach? If you tell me you're an artist but I've never seen any of your art and you won't show me any, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're not really an artist.


Dead people don't tend to come back until the time appointed for everyone during the end days. In fact, I don't know a single person who has come back from the dead. When you're dead that's kind of it.


This is your belief.


I don't disagree that people can and will be resurrected, but not because of nay verses in the Christian Testament.


Not relevent to me.

People knew Jesus was the Messiah because of his miracles and teachings. Nobody could have loved and taught like Jesus did.

Jesus being God would mean he wouldn't be a mere person.

If my belief is right, that would make Jesus an exception to the rule.

 

[Rival]

People knew Jesus was the Messiah because of his miracles and teachings.

The Messiah is not known for miracles; it is even given for false prophets to do miracles. We know the Messiah by the things already listed. He may do miracles, but miracles alone aren't enough. Nor are teachings - we know him by his actions, his accomplishments.

 

[Skywalker]

Messiah, anointed one, chosen one, Christ. They all mean the same thing. And this started after Cyrus was already dead. Cyrus let the Jews return to Jerusalem in 537 B. C. E. The call to rebuild Jerusalem did not occur until 455 B. C. E. during King Artaxerxes reign:

"In the month of Niʹsan, in the 20th year of King Ar·ta·xerxʹes."-Nehemiah 2:1.

The Messiah, Jesus Christ, was put to death, exactly when that prophecy foretold it was to happen. And Jerusalem and it's temple were thusly destroyed.


(Isaiah 6:9, 10) And he replied, “Go, and say to this people: ‘You will hear again and again, But you will not understand; You will see again and again, But you will not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, Make their ears unresponsive, And paste their eyes together, So that they may not see with their eyes And hear with their ears, So that their heart may not understand And they may not turn back and be healed.”

(Mark 4:12) so that, though looking, they may look and still not see, and though hearing, they may hear and still not get the sense of it; nor will they ever turn back and receive forgiveness.”
(Acts 28:26, 27) saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “You will indeed hear but by no means understand, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back and I heal them.”’

Both the Tanakh and New Testament say that Jesus was appointed by the Holy Spirit. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.15699/jbl.1362.2017.167203?seq=1

anointed God's messiah by the Holy Spirit (1:10–11)

Luke 4:18

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Isaiah 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 

[Skywalker]

The Messiah is not known for miracles; it is even given for false prophets to do miracles. We know the Messiah by the things already listed. He may do miracles, but miracles alone aren't enough. Nor are teachings - we know him by his actions, his accomplishments.

The Messiah was to be the man of sorrows who was wounded for our transgressions and was the Son of God and died before the destruction of the second temple. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

• 
  

  [*]Man of sorrows who was wounded for our transgressions.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Isaiah 53:4-5, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
  
  Isaiah 53:10 says, Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, and he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
  
  Isaiah 53:12 says, ...he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
  
  Isaiah 53:8, ...for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  II Corinthians 5:21..he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
  
  I John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
  
  I John 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
  
  I Peter 2:24, Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree [cross], that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
  
  
  
  
  [*]Messiah is the Son of God.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Psalm 2:7, I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
  
  Proverbs 30:4, Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
  
  Luke 3, ...a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
  
  
  
  
  [*]Messiah cut off before destruction of the sanctuary.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Daniel 9:24-26, Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks: and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
  
  The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.--after the death of the Messiah.
  
  
  
  
  [*]Perfect sacrifice.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Leviticus 16 details how the priest is to give atonement for the sins of the people by shedding the blood of animals. These animals were substitutionary sacrifices. Moses's actions picture what Christ would do on the cross as the perfect sacrifice- deity in human form without sin and without blemish.
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  II Corinthians 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
  
  John 1:29, ...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
  
  I Peter 1:18-19, ...redeemed with...the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
  
  Unlike the blood of goats which had to be offered once a year in atonement, Christ takes away our sins for eternity.

 

[rosends]

Both the Tanakh and New Testament say that Jesus was appointed by the Holy Spirit. The Messiah Is “the Holy One”: ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ as a Messianic Title in Mark 1:24 on JSTOR



Luke 4:18



Isaiah 61:1

so because the writer of Luke copied the text of Isaiah, that means that Isaiah was talking about what Luke was talking about?

I'll write a book that says that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon" Kermit the Frog and you will have to accept that Luke was talking about Kermit.

 

[metis]

The name of Jesus means salvation. Hebrew Roots Movement Attacks The Name Of Jesus

You might check my post #1132 as that's basically what I stated, although you forgot to include one of the roots, which is YHWH.

 

[Skywalker]

This passage isn't even about the Moshiach. Your translation, whichever biased one it is, also puts a capital M on the word 'messiah' - very odd, how do you decide that? There are several people this passage can be speaking about but the main one is Koresh (Cyrus of Persia) as the anointed one who allows the Jews to return to Israel.

The other anointed one is being 'cut off' - not a good thing, ever. Read what it says:

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

This is not a good thing to happen to anyone. It says 'he will be no more' - not, 'but don't worry he'll be back'!

Since Jesus died before the destruction of the second temple, and could resurrect if he was God, Jesus being the Messiah is perfectly consistent with the Messiah coming before the destruction of the second temple.

 

[Rival]

Since Jesus died before the destruction of the second temple, and could resurrect if he was God, Jesus being the Messiah is perfectly consistent with the Messiah coming before the destruction of the second temple.

The Messiah is not meant to be a god. This is not in Tanakh at all.