• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
This passage isn't even about the Moshiach. Your translation, whichever biased one it is, also puts a capital M on the word 'messiah' - very odd, how do you decide that? There are several people this passage can be speaking about but the main one is Koresh (Cyrus of Persia) as the anointed one who allows the Jews to return to Israel.

The other anointed one is being 'cut off' - not a good thing, ever. Read what it says:

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.


This is not a good thing to happen to anyone. It says 'he will be no more' - not, 'but don't worry he'll be back'!

Messiah, anointed one, chosen one, Christ. They all mean the same thing. And this started after Cyrus was already dead. Cyrus let the Jews return to Jerusalem in 537 B. C. E. The call to rebuild Jerusalem did not occur until 455 B. C. E. during King Artaxerxes reign:

"In the month of Niʹsan, in the 20th year of King Ar·ta·xerxʹes."-Nehemiah 2:1.

The Messiah, Jesus Christ, was put to death, exactly when that prophecy foretold it was to happen. And Jerusalem and it's temple were thusly destroyed.


(Isaiah 6:9, 10) And he replied, “Go, and say to this people: ‘You will hear again and again, But you will not understand; You will see again and again, But you will not get any knowledge.’ 10 Make the heart of this people unreceptive, Make their ears unresponsive, And paste their eyes together, So that they may not see with their eyes And hear with their ears, So that their heart may not understand And they may not turn back and be healed.”

(Mark 4:12) so that, though looking, they may look and still not see, and though hearing, they may hear and still not get the sense of it; nor will they ever turn back and receive forgiveness.”
(Acts 28:26, 27) saying, ‘Go to this people and say: “You will indeed hear but by no means understand, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 27 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn back and I heal them.”’
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
More nonsense. He was talking to God period ─ his God, the one God of the Jews.
No, it means the one God of the Jews, the God of Jesus (as Jesus clearly states in those quotes I gave you). As I said, the Trinity concept didn't exist when the NT was written, or for two centuries or more afterwards.
If it's a verse from Paul or John then it's referring to Jesus' pre-existence with God in heaven. As I said, the God of Jesus was the non-Trinitarian god of the Jews, Jesus being a circumcised Jew, and therefore of God's covenant with the Jews


And you forgot to tell me what other lies and deceits Jesus practiced on his followers.

It would be fair to say that if Jesus was as utterly lacking in frankness, so total in his deceit, as you say, then there's really no basis for trusting anything else he said, is there? Let others protest he tells the truth, you say he's lied about the biggest thing of all, so the foundation has well and truly failed and the whole structure of credibility irremediably destroyed.

Jesus being divine doesn't mean that his human side as a Jewish man didn't exist. That's called the hypostatic union.

How did the Trinity concept not exist during the New Testament if Colossians 2:9 mentions the Godhead?

How could Jesus have pre-existed with God in heaven if he was a human being?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
It means that the Messiah will die.
Just like everyone else, right? Except he's meant to die, after he does all the stuff he needs to do that makes him the Mashiach - otherwise how can we possibly know he's the Mashiach? If you tell me you're an artist but I've never seen any of your art and you won't show me any, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're not really an artist.

The Messiah will be no more is not a reference regarding whether he will return or not.
Dead people don't tend to come back until the time appointed for everyone during the end days. In fact, I don't know a single person who has come back from the dead. When you're dead that's kind of it.

Jesus can return because since he is God, he is all powerful and can be resurrected.
This is your belief.

. Do you disagree with the doctrine of the resurrection because of the verse that talks about the resurrection and the spirit of God?
I don't disagree that people can and will be resurrected, but not because of nay verses in the Christian Testament.

Not relevent to me.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
More nonsense. He was talking to God period ─ his God, the one God of the Jews.
No, it means the one God of the Jews, the God of Jesus (as Jesus clearly states in those quotes I gave you). As I said, the Trinity concept didn't exist when the NT was written, or for two centuries or more afterwards.
If it's a verse from Paul or John then it's referring to Jesus' pre-existence with God in heaven. As I said, the God of Jesus was the non-Trinitarian god of the Jews, Jesus being a circumcised Jew, and therefore of God's covenant with the Jews


And you forgot to tell me what other lies and deceits Jesus practiced on his followers.

It would be fair to say that if Jesus was as utterly lacking in frankness, so total in his deceit, as you say, then there's really no basis for trusting anything else he said, is there? Let others protest he tells the truth, you say he's lied about the biggest thing of all, so the foundation has well and truly failed and the whole structure of credibility irremediably destroyed.

Jesus insinuating that he was God was not lying and deceit. it's a belief that agrees with the Bible. Revisiting “Where Did Jesus Say ‘I am God’” – A Response to the Muhammedan Site “Do Not Say Trinity”
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Maybe he was talking to God the Father as God of the Jews. but that God, Jesus' God, is categorically NOT triune, either in the bible or in Jewish belief.

The Trinity doctrine didn't exist before the 4th century CE. Not only that but it exists as "a mystery in the strict sense" in that "it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ the churches' words, not mine. When you understand what "a mystery in the strict sense" is, you'll understand that it means "incoherent", "a nonsense".

And if there was an historical Jesus and if somehow the idea had been put to him two or three centuries before it was dreamed up, I suspect he'd have been smart enough to reply, "How many times I gotta tell ya, I'm NOT God, and anyway that Trinity thing is a heap of garbage, makes no sense."

Colossians 2:9 mentions the doctrine of the Trinity, and that was written before the 4th century.

Trying to understand the Trinity is like an ant trying to understand the internet.

The New Testament was written about 40 years after Jesus, which isn't too long of a gap.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
1. The Messiah had to die first. Jesus was put to death.
2. All the tribes were reunited after the repatriation after the exile in 537 B. C. E. when they returned to rebuild Jerusalem.
3. Prophecy said that Jerusalem and the temple would be destroyed after the Messiah was put to death.
4. He was from the line of David. There is no disputing that fact. Not even his enemies denied that. The genealogical records were destroyed in 70 C. E. No human coming after that date could prove their genealogical decent to David as did Jesus. You will NEVER see anyone EVER after 70 C. E. that could rightly claim to come from David with the record to back it up.
5. Jesus is the Eternal Father and the Prince of Peace.
6. The 1,000 year reign of Jesus over, not just one part of earth, but all the earth starts after Armageddon.

Do you think that the Millenium Reign of Christ and futurism has more Bible support than amillenialism and preterism?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member

I Samuel 10:1
Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on his head and kissed him and said, “Has not the Lord anointed you to be prince over his people Israel? And you shall reign over the people of the Lord and you will save them from the hand of their surrounding enemies. And this shall be the sign to you that the Lord has anointed you to be prince over his heritage.

I Samuel 16:12-13
And he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the Lord said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he.” 13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

I kings 1:39
There Zadok the priest took the horn of oil from the tent and anointed Solomon. Then they blew the trumpet, and all the people said, “Long live King Solomon!”

Isaiah 45:1
Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Just like everyone else, right? Except he's meant to die, after he does all the stuff he needs to do that makes him the Mashiach - otherwise how can we possibly know he's the Mashiach? If you tell me you're an artist but I've never seen any of your art and you won't show me any, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're not really an artist.


Dead people don't tend to come back until the time appointed for everyone during the end days. In fact, I don't know a single person who has come back from the dead. When you're dead that's kind of it.


This is your belief.


I don't disagree that people can and will be resurrected, but not because of nay verses in the Christian Testament.


Not relevent to me.

The Old Testament talks about the Resurrection of the dead in the Daniel verse about everlasting contempt, and God is all powerful.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I Samuel 10:1
Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on his head and kissed him and said, “Has not the Lord anointed you to be prince over his people Israel? And you shall reign over the people of the Lord and you will save them from the hand of their surrounding enemies. And this shall be the sign to you that the Lord has anointed you to be prince over his heritage.

I Samuel 16:12-13
And he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy and had beautiful eyes and was handsome. And the Lord said, “Arise, anoint him, for this is he.” 13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

I kings 1:39
There Zadok the priest took the horn of oil from the tent and anointed Solomon. Then they blew the trumpet, and all the people said, “Long live King Solomon!”

Yeah, you have no idea what I was saying. Your reply made made me say outloud: What?! As in what in the world is this person talking about.

Moses was a Messiah, or Christ. So was Cyrus. Isaiah 45 foretold Cyrus by name hundreds of years before he even was born.

The Bible refers to 144,000 anointed, or chosen ones who will rule with Jesus Christ in heaven.

All the kings of Israel were anointed, or chosen by God.

The fact that there are more than one anointed or chosen one, Messiah, Christ, is obvious.

That does not change the fact that the word Messiah, means anointed one, which means chosen one, which is what the Christ is. They all mean the same thing: Messiah, anointed, chosen one, Christ. It's all the same thing.

Messiah means chosen one of God. Moses was the first Messiah by God, the mediator between God and the nation of Israel of the Law Covenant. Jesus is the mediator between God and man of the new covenant, the greater Messiah that came after Moses.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the anointed one, the chosen one. Jesus was anointed with holy spirit in 29 C. E.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, you have no idea what I was saying. Your reply made made me say outloud: What?! As in what in the world is this person talking about.

Moses was a Messiah, or Christ. So was Cyrus. Isaiah 45 foretold Cyrus by name hundreds of years before he even was born.

The Bible refers to 144,000 anointed, or chosen ones who will rule with Jesus Christ in heaven.

All the kings of Israel were anointed, or chosen by God.

The fact that there are more than one anointed or chosen one, Messiah, Christ, is obvious.

That does not change the fact that the word Messiah, means anointed one, which means chosen one, which is what the Christ is. They all mean the same thing: Messiah, anointed, chosen one, Christ. It's all the same thing.

Messiah means chosen one of God. Moses was the first Messiah by God, the mediator between God and the nation of Israel of the Law Covenant. Jesus is the mediator between God and man of the new covenant, the greater Messiah that came after Moses.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the anointed one, the chosen one. Jesus was anointed with holy spirit in 29 C. E.
Yes, there is The Mashiach, but not every single instance in the Tanakh talking about 'an anointed' is about The Mashiach, as we can see in Daniel. The Mashiach is not meant to die before he accomplishes anything.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
The Mashiach is not meant to die before he accomplishes anything.

That very prophecy explains what he accomplishes by his dying:

“There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies."-Daniel 9:24.

His death atoned for the sin of humankind, thus it was in "order to terminate transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness."

It anointed the "Holy of Holies" in heaven. At Jesus death the curtain that separated the Holy from the Most Holy was rent in two. The curtain represented Jesus flesh. When he died the typical representation of the reality, that is, the temple, no longer continued to function as a holy building to Jehovah God. Rather the Most Holy was transferred to heaven itself. Where Jesus later was resurrected and returned to his Father, Jehovah, and presented the blood offering of his perfect human life as a ransom once and for all times for the human race, for everyone exercising faith in his ransom to attain everlasting life.

All that was told you in that prophecy there in Daniel 9:24.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
That very prophecy explains what he accomplishes by his dying:

“There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies."-Daniel 9:24.

His death atoned for the sin of humankind, thus it was in "order to terminate transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness."

It anointed the "Holy of Holies" in heaven. At Jesus death the curtain that separated the Holy from the Most Holy was rent in two. The curtain represented Jesus flesh. When he died the typical representation of the reality, that is, the temple, no longer continued to function as a holy building to Jehovah God. Rather the Most Holy was transferred to heaven itself. Where Jesus later was resurrected and returned to his Father, Jehovah, and presented the blood offering of his perfect human life as a ransom once and for all times for the human race, for everyone exercising faith in his ransom to attain everlasting life.

All that was told you in that prophecy there in Daniel 9:24.
You are just reading this into the passage. This is all just your Christianity. It says nothing like this.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
You are just reading this into the passage. This is all just your Christianity. It says nothing like this.

That is exactly what it says. I did not read anything into it. I can share with you in precise detail what that prophecy is saying:

There are 70 weeks of years. They commence from the call to rebuild Jerusalem. This happened in 455 B. C. E.

There are 7 weeks and also 62 weeks. The first 7 weeks or 49 years was how long it took to rebuild Jerusalem. The next 434 years leads to 29 C. E. when Jesus was baptized in water and with holy spirit.

At the end of the 62 weeks Messiah (the Christ) would be cut off or put to death, in order to make atonement for error, and to finish off sin. This happened at the half of the last week, the 70th week of years, or 3 1/2 years after 29 C. E. At his death on Passover Nisan 14, 33 C. E. he caused "gift offering to cease." That is the holy temple arrangement in Jerusalem was no longer needed. The Law Covenant given to Moses was done away with.

Because the Jews murdered Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Savior of the world, God's son, and because Jehovah God has already foreseen it, what was decided upon the city Jerusalem, and the holy place, it's temple was destruction.

This happened at the hands of the "people of a leader" that is the Roman Armies, sent by Cestius Gallus commanded by his son, Titus.

There is no reading anything into this prophecy other than exactly what it states, and exactly what happened in real life.

The wing of disgusting things causing desolation were the pagan Roman standards. You see it was a disgusting thing for the Jews to have a pagan Roman standard in the temple courtyard. The Romans seiged Jerusalem and the disgusting thing was in her. Jesus even spoke of this prophecy and applied it to Jerusalem itself. There is NO getting over the fact that it referred to the Roman armies destruction of Jerusalem, or the fact that Jesus was a real prophet and said it himself:

Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."-Matthew 24:15-22.


(Daniel 9:24-27) . . . “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This is not a function of the Moshiach.
What information from scripture do you have to back up your assertion? See when I was studying the Bible I asked a rabbinical student if the Messiah had two appearances, and he just told me that Jews don't believe that. No scripture, no explanation other than to say that a false Messiah would die. Nothing else. What do you say about that and why do you say it?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It means that the Messiah will die. The Messiah will be no more is not a reference regarding whether he will return or not. Jesus can return because since he is God, he is all powerful and can be resurrected. Do you disagree with the doctrine of the resurrection because of the verse that talks about the resurrection and the spirit of God? Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:11 - New Living Translation
What does Messiah mean, do you think? By the way, and I do mean by the way, God doesn't need to be resurrected.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
What information from scripture do you have to back up your assertion? See when I was studying the Bible I asked a rabbinical student if the Messiah had two appearances, and he just told me that Jews don't believe that. No scripture, no explanation other than to say that a false Messiah would die. Nothing else. What do you say about that and why do you say it?
Here is a list of messianic prophecies:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.


This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.


People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.


The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.


Not happened yet.


Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.


Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."


Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.


Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.


People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.


Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.


This hasn't happened either. None of it.


Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.


Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.


There is nothing here about needing to die, be raised, then come again.
 
Top