How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

There is a reason there are the synoptic gospels and lonely little John.

1st John is not part of the four gospels but the gospel of John is.

 

[Skywalker]

So God is negligent.

Who are we that God has to introduce himself to us?

 

[Skywalker]

You specifically made him a liar. You said, having read (because I put them in front of you) samplings of the number of times he said with great clarity that he wasn't God, and knowing that he never said "I am God", that all this was a lie, that he was really God all along.

So either revise your opinion and acknowledge that Jesus isn't God and we have his repeated and consistent word for it, or tell me what else he lied about, what other important deceits he practiced.
Well, for a start, Colossians 1:3 says "God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" thus affirming Paul's distinction, which you've already noted, between one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, who made the material universe. And you'll know from your reading that this view has echoes in gnosticism, where God is imagined as spirit too remote and too pure ever to contemplate soiling [his] mind with mere matter, so it falls to [his] lieutenant, called the demiurge (Greek, δημιουργόϛ 'craftsman') both to create the material world and to mediate between it and God.

So this model of Jesus, used by Paul and John but not the others, existed before Abraham because he existed before the material universe did.

(And even were your point correct, though it's not, this example might show Jesus to be an inconsistent liar, but he'd still be a liar an overwhelming proportion of the time in your view.)

Now back to the point ─ what else do you say Jesus lied about?

Jesus didn't outright say he was God because it would have caused confusion but he implied it. Why did Jesus never say, "I am God, and there is none else"?

Question:

Unlike the OT where Yahweh says over and over again "I am God, and there is none else" (Isaiah 43:10-13, 44:6-8, 45:5-6, 46:9-11), Jesus never once said those words. Not once did he say, "I am God." Since the God of the Hebrew Bible says it repeatedly why didn’t Jesus ever say it, at least once, especially when this is so crucial to Christian doctrine?

Answer:

The simple answer as to why Jesus didn’t simply come out and say, "I am God" is because of the confusion this would have caused the Jews living at that time. Noted New Testament Scholar and Catholic Theologian Raymond E. Brown states it best:

"The question concerns Jesus a Galilean Jew of the first third of the first century, for whom ‘God’ would have a meaning specified by his background and the theological language of the time. By way of simplification (and perhaps oversimplification) let me say that I think by a Jew of that period ‘God’ would have been thought of as One dwelling in the heavens - among many attributes. Therefore, a question posed to Jesus on earth, ‘Do you think you are God?’ would mean did he think he was the One dwelling in heaven. And you can see that would have been an inappropriate question, since Jesus was visibly on earth. As a matter of fact the question was never asked of him; at most he was asked about his relationship to God." (Brown, Responses to 101 Questions on the Bible [Paulist Press, Mahwah, N.J., 1990], p. 98)

Another NT scholar, this time an evangelical one, concurs with Brown. Former atheist turned Christian apologist Lee Strobel interviewed Ben Witherington and asked him basically the same question, namely, why did Jesus never come out and say he was God. Here is Witherington’s response:

"The truth is that Jesus was a bit mysterious about his identity, wasn’t he?" I asked as Witherington pulled up a chair across from me. "He tended to shy away from forthrightly proclaiming himself to be the Messiah or Son of God. Was that because he didn’t think of himself in those terms or because he had other reasons?"

"No, it’s not because he didn’t think of himself in those terms," Witherington said as he settled into his chair and crossed his legs. "If he had simply announced, ‘Hi, folks; I’m God,’ that would have been heard as ‘I’m Yahweh,’ because the Jews of his day didn’t have any concept of the Trinity. They only knew of God the Father–whom they called Yahweh–and not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

"So if someone were to say he was God, that wouldn’t have made any sense to them and would have been seen as clear-cut blasphemy. And it would have been counterproductive to Jesus in his efforts to get people to listen to his message.

"Besides, there were already a host of expectations about what the Messiah would look like, and Jesus didn’t want to be pigeonholed into somebody else’s categories. Consequently, he was very careful about what he said publicly. In private with his disciples–that was a different story, but the gospels primarily tell us about what he did in public." (Strobel, The Case For Christ [Zondervan Publishing House; Grand Rapids, MI, 1998 - Pocket Size Edition], pp. 178-179)

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. To do so he would have to be accused of breaking Roman laws. Jesus was executed because they didn't like that he was speaking the truth-he didn't create the situation of the crucifixion. He came to the earth because he was born to die.

Then why did he run away when people tried to kill him?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Who are we that God has to introduce himself to us?

A parent who doesn’t bother doesn’t deserve respect.

 

[Skywalker]

A parent who doesn’t bother doesn’t deserve respect.

Parents also want kids to reach out to them.

 

[Skywalker]

Then why did he run away when people tried to kill him?

When the Jews tried to kill Jesus, that wasn't the time of his crucifixion.

 

[blü 2]

Whether you believe John or not, the Gospel of John still supports Jesus Christ being God.

Dear oh dear!

Don't you ever read what I post?

Here are eleven of Jesus' denials that he's God, all from John ─

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

So stop trying to pretend that in the NT Jesus somehow says he's God. Nowhere does he claim to be God.

Instead in all four gospels he says he is not God, a view supported in Paul, 2 Timothy and 1 John.

Oh, and I assume you've checked what I several times told you before, and you now know that the Trinity doctrine doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, right? It's not in the NT and if there was an historical Jesus he'd never heard of it, right?

So as I keep pointing out, with the NT every time you say Jesus is God, you're calling Jesus a liar and deceiver every time he's said loud and plain he isn't God.

Since (as in my previous posts and as above) you can now see that you're wrong, and that you have not a single example of Jesus saying "I am God",

either admit to yourself that the NT never says Jesus is God

or tell me what other lies and deceits you attribute to Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

Dear oh dear!

Don't you ever read what I post?

Here are eleven of Jesus' denials that he's God, all from John ─

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

So stop trying to pretend that in the NT Jesus somehow says he's God. Nowhere does he claim to be God.

Instead in all four gospels he says he is not God, a view supported in Paul, 2 Timothy and 1 John.

Oh, and I assume you've checked what I several times told you before, and you now know that the Trinity doctrine doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, right? It's not in the NT and if there was an historical Jesus he'd never heard of it, right?

So as I keep pointing out, with the NT every time you say Jesus is God, you're calling Jesus a liar and deceiver every time he's said loud and plain he isn't God.

Since (as in my previous posts and as above) you can now see that you're wrong, and that you have not a single example of Jesus saying "I am God",

either admit to yourself that the NT never says Jesus is God

or tell me what other lies and deceits you attribute to Jesus.

People never saw the Father or God in his fullness, they only saw Jesus. The Son is in submission to the Father, and came down from heaven to do his will. The Father has greater authority than Jesus Christ, but they are equally God. https://carm.org/bible-difficulties...didnt-he-know-the-time-of-christs-return-man/

If the Holy Spirit is God, why didn’t He know the time of Christ’s return?
by Matt Slick | Dec 2, 2008 | Bible Difficulties, Matthew - Mark, The Bible

If the Holy Spirit is God, why didn’t he know the time of Christ’s return? Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32. The answer lies in two possibilities, the hypostatic union and also the wedding ceremony with its idiomatic phraseology about the wedding feast and the phrase “no one knows the time except the father.”

1. Matt. 24:36, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”
2. Mark 13:32, “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

There are two possible answers here. First, Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1, 14; 20:28; Col. 2:9), and during His ministry in Jerusalem, He was cooperating with the limitations of being a man. As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God, He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

Since he was operating as a man, under the law (Gal. 4:4), it might very well be that Jesus was referencing the Father as the proper sovereign as only as a good Jew would have done.

Second, the cultural context is very important. This passage is about Jesus‘ return which included getting the bride, the church and then the wedding feast would occur.

“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready, 8 And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 And he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb,” (Rev. 19:7-9).

If we were to look at the cultural context, we can get a much better understanding of what was Jesus may have been alluding to when he said that only the Father knows.

Marriage Ceremony
In that historical and cultural context when a man was going to marry a woman, it was usually prearranged. The bridegroom would be living with his family and he would begin to build an addition onto his father’s house where he and his future wife would live. It was the custom for the father of the home to be the one who designated when the addition was finished. This meant that only the father knew when the son would be told to go get the bride. But, does this mean that the son would not know when he had to go to get the bride? Not necessarily, and this is why.

A wedding was a community affair where many many people would be invited. This required advance notice so that people could allow the necessary time to attend the wedding and wedding feast. This means that some would have to put their animals away for the day, not work in the field that day, not have business dealings that day, et cetera. In a culture where there is no Internet, phone, or radio, things were done well in advance so that people could plan ahead.

Furthermore, a wedding feast also meant that large amounts of food would have to be prepared in order for all the guests to have something to eat. These kinds of arrangements were not done on the spur of the moment. The arrangements were done weeks, sometimes months in advance. Therefore, to alleviate anyone missing the wedding feast due to a spontaneous invitation that they could not attend, arrangements were made well in advance.

But, in order to maintain the respect and dignity of the father’s place in the home, it would naturally be said “that only the father knows” when it would be time for the son to go get the bride. This did not necessitate that the son did not know because the community would have to know within a reasonable degree of accuracy when the wedding would occur. Therefore, Jesus may have been alluding to the phraseology housed in the wedding and wedding feast culture that did not necessarily mean he did not know of the Holy Spirit did not know the time of his return.

 

[blü 2]

People never saw the Father or God in his fullness, they only saw Jesus. The Son is in submission to the Father, and came down from heaven to do his will. The Father has greater authority than Jesus Christ, but they are equally God.

Not according to Jesus. Not according to Paul. Not according to whoever wrote 2 Timothy and whoever wrote 1 John.

There is one God of the Jews, who is not repeat not repeat not Triune.

The God of the Jews is the God of Jesus, a circumcised Jew.

The Trinity doctrine doesn't exist in Jesus day, or in the century after, or in the century after that. It's not invented till the fourth century. Since you know that because I've told you repeatedly and you've independently checked it out, please stop pretending otherwise.

Jesus never once claims to be God.

So you're willfully trying to impose your own wishes on a set of texts that you know say Jesus isn't God.

By all means claim that in the fourth century the Christians promoted Jesus to God status with a doctrine which is incoherent ("a mystery in the strict sense"). That would be true.

What you're claiming is simply untrue, as has been amply demonstrated to you.

Or is it the case, as Colonel Jessup notably put it, that "You can't handle the truth!" ?

 

[Skywalker]

Dear oh dear!

Don't you ever read what I post?

Here are eleven of Jesus' denials that he's God, all from John ─

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
​

So stop trying to pretend that in the NT Jesus somehow says he's God. Nowhere does he claim to be God.

Instead in all four gospels he says he is not God, a view supported in Paul, 2 Timothy and 1 John.

Oh, and I assume you've checked what I several times told you before, and you now know that the Trinity doctrine doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, right? It's not in the NT and if there was an historical Jesus he'd never heard of it, right?

So as I keep pointing out, with the NT every time you say Jesus is God, you're calling Jesus a liar and deceiver every time he's said loud and plain he isn't God.

Since (as in my previous posts and as above) you can now see that you're wrong, and that you have not a single example of Jesus saying "I am God",

either admit to yourself that the NT never says Jesus is God

or tell me what other lies and deceits you attribute to Jesus.

Jesus was saying he came because of the will of the one who sent him, to distinguish himself from God the Father. That's also why Jesus said he didn't come of his own accord. The Father is greater in authority than Jesus. When Jesus said ye believe in God in John 14:1, he was talking about the triune God Yahweh, which includes himself. Colossians 2:9 mentions the Godhead, which means the same exact thing as the Trinity.
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Jesus said he didn't speak on his own authority and the Father is greater than him to distinguish himself from God the Father. He didn't mean that he isn't the one true God. Saying the Father was his God was a way to vividly distinguish himself from being God the Father. It's also possible that Jesus was referring to Yahweh as "My God", not just himself. Revisiting “Where Did Jesus Say ‘I am God’” – A Response to the Muhammedan Site “Do Not Say Trinity”

This is a response to a Muslim who calls himself “question mark.” He operates the “Do Not Say Trinity” dawa website. I will refer to this man as DNST. In his recent paper entitled “Where did Jesus (pbuh) say, I am God”? – A Good Argument! he responded to my my paper Is Asking “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am God’” a Good Argument? Suffice it to say, his paper is wrought with many errors and gross misinterpretations.

In my original paper my argument was that it is erroneous for Muslim apologists to demand Jesus say “I am God” and reject any other proofs for His deity since Jesus used numerous titles of God from the Old Testament which God deemed sufficient to establish and confirm His divine identity. I mentioned the titles Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, Bridegroom, Savior, I Am, King of kings and Lord of lords.

DNST’s Failure to Address my Main Argument

Amazingly, in his article DNST didn’t address the issue of these divine Old Testament titles being applied to Christ in the New Testament at all. He didn’t dispute the fact that these were titles God used for Himself to establish His own unique deity which were also applied to Christ. No adequate explanation of this phenomenon was given by DNST. Instead he asserts that these are “cliché Christian arguments” and moves on, which shows that he could not deal with the central argument and chose to resort to ridicule, dismissal and mere assertion. This is not how you engage in reasonable and honest apologetics.

DNST took the route of ignoring my argument and once again tried to defend the position that if Jesus was God He would have said the three words “I am God.” He also tried to argue that there are texts which show Jesus isn’t God in the New Testament. However, his arguments literally are cliché Muslim arguments which I will refute. After I refute his specious reasoning and arguments, he will then need to deal with these numerous Old Testament titles of God that are applied to Christ in the New Testament.

Revisiting the issue of why Jesus Didn’t Say the Exact Words “I am God”

DNST cites numerous Old Testament texts where God says “I am God” or something close to that (Gen. 35:11; Gen. 46:3; Exo. 6:7; Exo. 16:12; Lev. 11:44 etc). Because it is a repeated theme for God to say “I am God” in the Old Testament the argument is that Christ should have come out and said “I am God” with those exact words as well. DNST argues that this phrase “has always been an insignia of traditional Judeo-Christian God” and thus we would expect Christ to use it without hesitation if He were truly God.

The problem is that if Jesus were to come out and say “I am God” without clearly and forcefully establishing his personal distinction from the Father, and His deity in relation to that fact, people would think He was claiming to be the same person as the Father. This is because God was used primarily in reference to the Father and virtually served as His proper name. In other words, to come out and say “I am God” instead of first establishing His distinction from the Father, would lead His followers into thinking He was making himself out to be the Father in heaven.(1) This is why Jesus didn’t just walk around saying “I am God” as the Muslims demand.

Thus, Jesus needed to communicate His deity in such a way that His audience would know that He wasn’t claiming to be the Father, even though He was claiming to be God. In light of this, there was no better way for Jesus to affirm the fact that He is God then by the way the Gospels report he did, e.g. the unique Son of God and divine Son of Man who is coequal with the Father in essence, and also by applying divine titles and metaphors to Himself.

For instance, Jesus applied an Old Testament title “I Am” to himself, which is significant since he was basically making himself out to be the OT figure known as the Angel of the Lord, the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14! There were many different Jewish strands at that time that already maintained that this figure was God and yet distinct from God.(2) Thus, by using the title “I Am” Jesus was affirming both His deity as well as His distinction from the Father since in the Old Testament “I Am” was applied to both God (cf. Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:13) and the Angel of the Lord (cf. Exodus 3:14). One needs to understand intertestimental Jewish thinking in order to understand these issues properly. Without this pre-Christian Jewish backdrop in mind Muslims will be unable to understand why Jesus did what He did and said the things He said.

In summary, although Christ didn’t say “I am God” without qualification, which would have led people to think he was the Father, he did apply numerous Old Testament titles of God to Himself while going out of his way to affirm that He is not the Father.

Therefore, it is understandable why Jesus didn’t say “I am God” during His earthly ministry. That would severely complicate things and lead to a mistaken notion of the Godhead. Jesus affirmed the equivalent of “I am God” in a brilliant way while safeguarding the fact that He and the Father are personally distinct from each other.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus was saying he came because of the will of the one who sent him, to distinguish himself from God the Father.

Jesus identified the person who sent him as "my God" and himself as the one his God had sent. You're not reading the text with an open mind because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

That's also why Jesus said he didn't come of his own accord. The Father is greater in authority than Jesus.

Indeed he is ─ there's only one God of the Jews, and Jesus' Father is that God and Jesus is not.

All you're doing is making up desperate excuses and repeating your wilful errors. You still pretend the Trinity doctrine existed before the fourth century, for instance. It didn't. The gospel authors, and given an historical Jesus, Jesus, had never heard of such a thing. They were Jews and Jews do not hold triune beliefs about God ─ which is to their credit, since the Trinity doctrine is not only actually incoherent but officially so.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus identified the person who sent him as "my God" and himself as the one his God had sent. You're not reading the text with an open mind because you don't want to admit you're wrong.
Indeed he is ─ there's only one God of the Jews, and Jesus' Father is that God and Jesus is not.

All you're doing is making up desperate excuses and repeating your wilful errors. You still pretend the Trinity doctrine existed before the fourth century, for instance. It didn't. The gospel authors, and given an historical Jesus, Jesus, had never heard of such a thing. They were Jews and Jews do not hold triune beliefs about God ─ which is to their credit, since the Trinity doctrine is not only actually incoherent but officially so.

By ""my God" Jesus meant the Father. He didn't say the Father because wording it to imply directly that he's the Son of God would confuse people as to if he was the Father or Spirit, and it would sound blasphemous to outright say he was God. Jesus was being subtle.

The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, Jesus, is God the Son, and he is part of the plurality of the triune God Yahweh, the God of the Jews. Jesus is Yahweh the God of the Jews because the Bible uses the same language about Jesus that it does about Yahweh.

Colossians 2:9 existed before the fourth century. That verse of the Bible refers to the Trinity by the term the Godhead.

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

The Jewish Christians believed in the Trinity because they had different beliefs from Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Jewish sects[edit]
During the early first century CE there were many competing Jewish sects in the Holy Land, and those that became Rabbinic Judaism and Proto-orthodox Christianity were but two of these. There were Pharisees, Sadducees, and Zealots, but also other less influential sects, including the Essenes.[1][2] The first century BCE and first century CE saw a growing number of charismatic religious leaders contributing to what would become the Mishnah of Rabbinic Judaism; the ministry of Jesus would lead to the emergence of the first Jewish Christian community.[1][2]

Although the gospels contain strong condemnations of the Pharisees, Paul the Apostle claimed to have been a Pharisee, and there is a clear influence of Hillel's interpretation of the Torah in the Gospel-sayings.[18] Belief in the resurrection of the dead in the messianic age was a core Pharisaic doctrine.

 

[blü 2]

By ""my God" Jesus meant the Father. He didn't say the Father because wording it to imply directly that he's the Son of God would confuse people as to if he was the Father or Spirit, and it would sound blasphemous to outright say he was God. Jesus was being subtle.

That's theological nonsense. We're talking about the god of the Jews, remember, not the 4th century CE incoherent triune God of the Christians.

The Jewish Christians believed in the Trinity because they had different beliefs from Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

You can't produce a single NT quote that even vaguely supports that view ─ no surprise, because like too much of your stuff, it's baseless.

When was the Trinity doctrine declared to be part of Church doctrine. do you say? Cite your authority.


And lest we drift away from the topic, what other lies and deceits do you attribute to Jesus, apart from his denials that he's God?

 

[Skywalker]

That's theological nonsense. We're talking about the god of the Jews, remember, not the 4th century CE incoherent triune God of the Christians.
You can't produce a single NT quote that even vaguely supports that view ─ no surprise, because like too much of your stuff, it's baseless.

When was the Trinity doctrine declared to be part of Church doctrine. do you say? Cite your authority.


And lest we drift away from the topic, what other lies and deceits do you attribute to Jesus, apart from his denials that he's God?

Judaism and Christianity were one when Christianity was a Jewish sect. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

Most of Jesus's teachings were intelligible and acceptable in terms of Second Temple Judaism; what set Christians apart from Jews was their faith in Christ as the resurrected messiah.[19] While Christianity acknowledges only one ultimate Messiah, Judaism can be said to hold to a concept of multiple messiahs. The two most relevant are the Messiah ben Joseph and the traditional Messiah ben David. Some scholars have argued that the idea of two messiahs, one suffering and the second fulfilling the traditional messianic role, was normative to ancient Judaism, predating Jesus. Jesus would have been viewed by many as one or both.[20][21][22][23]

Jewish messianism has its root in the apocalyptic literature of the 2nd century BCE to the 1st century CE, promising a future "anointed" leader or Messiah to resurrect the Israelite "Kingdom of God", in place of the foreign rulers of the time. According to Shaye J.D. Cohen, Jesus's failure to establish an independent Israel, and his death at the hands of the Romans, caused many Jews to reject him as the Messiah.[24][note 3] Jews at that time were expecting a military leader as a Messiah, such as Bar Kokhba.

If the Messiah is coming the future and will only come once, why would there be two Messiahs? I believe that there being two Messiahs is a re-interpreting the second coming of Jesus without outright denying that there is some truth in texts like Zechariah 14:4, to fit having a religion instead of a relationship with God, but I don't know why people believe what they believe. There are different interpretations of Judaism.

Colossians 2:9 talks about the Trinity. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The Godhead is the Father, the Holy Spirit, and God the Son.

The Trinity became a part of the Church doctrine in the 4th century but the idea of the Trinity existed, with the language of the Godhead, since Paul wrote Colossians.

Jesus saying before Abraham was I am showed that he was God, because God told Moses I am that I am.

 

[YoursTrue]

Can you show me what talmudic passage you refer to? And as I reject texts like Matthew, it is not a useful rhetorical tool.

Can you show me what talmudic passage you refer to? And as I reject texts like Matthew, it is not a useful rhetorical tool.

I remember reading it, but as usual, not all rabbis or rabbinical commentary agree with one another. I didn't write the reference down, and I looked for it again but it didn't pop up. And as you probably know, the Babylonian Talmud is rather long. So I apologize that I can't find it right now.

 

[blü 2]

Judaism and Christianity were one when Christianity was a Jewish sect.

Yes, and they worshiped the non-triune Jewish God. If you think the Jewish God was triune, ask any Jewish person.

If the Messiah is coming the future and will only come once, why would there be two Messiahs?

In the Tanakh there can be as many messiahs as you like. The messiah is a human anointed by the Jewish priesthood, not a supernatural being,

Colossians 2:9 talks about the Trinity. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The Godhead is the Father, the Holy Spirit, and God the Son.

You're just making stuff up, trying to retrofit. The Godhead is the Jewish non-triune God. There's no mention of the Son or the Ghost,

The Trinity became a part of the Church doctrine in the 4th century

Yes, and it wasn't church doctrine till then.

but the idea of the Trinity existed, with the language of the Godhead, since Paul wrote Colossians.

Total rubbish. Paul was also a Jew and his God was non-triuine, and his Jesus ─ as you've seen ─ was "Lord" as distinct from the Father's singular "God".

So you're still calling Jesus a liar, and you're still failing to clarify the point.

Be so kind as to answer without evasion. Having said that Jesus was lying when he said eg

‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one' {Mark 12:29)
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Luke 18:18)
“the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing” (John 5:19)
“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17)​

what other lies do you say he told?

And don't waste everyone's time trying to explain the quotes away. Their meaning is plain ─ Jesus is not God.

He's not God till the latter 4th century CE, as we've agreed.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, and they worshiped the non-triune Jewish God. If you think the Jewish God was triune, ask any Jewish person.
In the Tanakh there can be as many messiahs as you like. The messiah is a human anointed by the Jewish priesthood, not a supernatural being,
You're just making stuff up, trying to retrofit. The Godhead is the Jewish non-triune God. There's no mention of the Son or the Ghost,
Yes, and it wasn't church doctrine till then.
Total rubbish. Paul was also a Jew and his God was non-triuine, and his Jesus ─ as you've seen ─ was "Lord" as distinct from the Father's singular "God".

So you're still calling Jesus a liar, and you're still failing to clarify the point.

Be so kind as to answer without evasion. Having said that Jesus was lying when he said eg

‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one' {Mark 12:29)
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Luke 18:18)
“the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing” (John 5:19)
“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)
"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17)​

what other lies do you say he told?

And don't waste everyone's time trying to explain the quotes away. Their meaning is plain ─ Jesus is not God.

He's not God till the latter 4th century CE, as we've agreed.

Since Colossians 2:9 mentions the Trinity, the early Christians believed in the Trinity. Jesus didn't say he was God because he didn't want to sound blasphemous in his proclamations or make people think he was God the Father. The early Christians believed in God the Father and the Son of God. The Jewish Scriptures mention the plurality of God.

Genesis 1:26, KJV: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." The Trinity is not pagan doctrine. Biblical Evidence for the Godhead

Didn’t the Trinity Teaching Originate in Pagan Religion?

Some false teachers today are claiming that the Biblical doctrine of the Godhead (Trinity) has it’s origin in pagan religion. This is not true at all. The fact of the matter is that Christianity predates ALL known religions. We read in Genesis 15:6 that Abram (Abraham) “believed in the LORD; and he [Jesus] counted it to him for righteousness.” Abraham lived around 2,000 B.C. It was the heathens who tried to imitate and corrupt genuine Christianity. This has always been Satan’s dirty game.

John 8:44 and John 10:10 tell us that the Devil is a big liar who comes only to kill, steal and destroy lives. Only a woefully ignorant person would dare claim that Christianity didn’t exist before the time Christ was born into the world. History and archaeology document that Old Testament Israel very much awaited and centered their religious beliefs around the coming Messiah. It was because of earlier prophecies that the 3-wise men journeyed from the east (likely from Babylon) to witness the birth of the Savior, Jesus, in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2). Is the Trinity "Pagan?"

Jewish people believe that the Messiah has not come yet. That is different from the doctrine of many Messiahs. That also shows that there are different interpretations of the Tanakh. The interpretations that believe in Jesus and the Trinity are no less valid than the others.

Why do you believe that the Godhead is in the Old Testament? Some people who don't believe in the Trinity believe that "let us make man in our image" in Genesis 1:26 is a reference to God talking to the angels. Do you believe that that verse was talking about when the morning stars shouted for joy? King David mentioned the Holy Spirit and Daniel 3:25 mentions the Son of God.

It wasn't church doctrine, but it was in Colossians 2:9.

Paul followed early Christianity, which was a Jewish sect that believed in the Trinity. Paul was doing what Jesus was doing when Jesus didn't outright say he was God. Paul was distinguishing Jesus from the Father to be consistent with how Jesus talked and to avoid confusing Jesus and God the Father and to be more subtle than simply outright say, "Jesus is God".

The Lord is one is a reference to the rejection of polytheism. Polytheistic gods aren't holy, just, and loving. Jesus was actually affirming his deity and showing that only God is sinless. Jesus was talking about the Son's submission to the Father within the plurality of the Trinity. Jesus said the one true God and Jesus Christ both to reject polytheism and not outright say that Jesus is God, as to not sound blasphemous and cause confusion about Jesus and the Father being the same. God the Father was the Father of Jesus in terms of being above him in authority, and the our Father because he is God the Father.

Jesus is God, but he had to be careful not to say it in a way that would sound vain, boastful, or blasphemous, because he was speaking in his humanity. He didn't want there to be any confusion about the Trinity. The Trinity belief and the belief of Jesus being God existed as early as when Jesus was preaching in Israel, which is centuries before the 4th century CE.

 

[YoursTrue]

They would. You are very ignorant of history. Rameses was named after a God named Ra. Israel is named after El. Jael is also named after El. Most ancient people have some kind of deity reference in their names.

I have learned that the term El was possibly transferred from the language used by the Canaanites of one of their gods. -- the god El. And El is often translated from the Hebrew to English as God. But El can refer to other gods, not only the God of Israel.
Elohim, however, does not refer to multiple "equal" personalities, or persons or gods within a being called God. It refers to the excelling and surpassing of all others, including those called gods, in the majesty of the one true God. Jesus clearly said at John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." He realized his Father is higher than himself, the only one to be worshiped and acknowledged that the only true God sent him to the earth as a man, leaving his esteemed position next to God. There's more but I'll leave it at that for now.
What Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe? (jw.org)

 

[YoursTrue]

Mashiach simply means anointed.

Yes, Mashiach means anointed one.

THE Messiah refers to him who will rule Israel during the messianic era. He will usher in an era of world peace, bring all the Jews back to the Land, and rule from Jerusalem. That's the main idea.

Now you got me. So are you saying that the one who rules Israel during the Messianic era will be a king? (No democracy?) And then will usher in world peace, bring all the Jews back to Israel (you say the Land) and he (king?) will rule from Jerusalem?