• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
YoursTrue said:
Not exactly sure what you mean here, but after much consideration, I have come to a different conclusion. In fact, the longer I'm here and talking about it, it makes more and more sense that the Bible is true.
Click to expand...
Yeah but God told me it wasn’t. He said anything that He declares would be seen in reality and the Bible doesn’t make the cut. I consider holding scripture sacred to be idolatry.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Why do you trust John so much?
Click to expand...

John talked about Jesus being God, which is consistent with my belief that God died for everyone. Jesus as Preexistent Son of God


"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." John 3:13

"Jesus then said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.' ... Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst... FOR I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.' … So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, 'I am the bread that came down from heaven.' They said, 'Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, "I have come down from heaven"?'" John 6:32-33, 35, 38, 41-42

Notice here that even Jesus’ contemporaries understood that Christ was claiming to have actually existed in heaven from whence he came down.

"This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh... As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:50-51, 57-58

"Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?" John 6:62

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came FROM/OUT OF God (ego gar EK tou theou) and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me... Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.' So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being (prin Abraam genesthai), I am.' So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple." John 8:42, 56-59

Here, Jesus says that he came out of (ek) God and was existing even before Abraham's creation!

"do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?" John 10:36

"Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come FROM God and was going back to God (kai pros ton theon)," John 13:3

"for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came FROM God. I came FROM the Father and have come INTO THE WORLD, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father (kai poreuomai pros ton theon)." John 16:27-28

The foregoing examples conclusively demonstrate that Jesus was emphatically affirming that he actually and personally existed in heaven even before he became a man. John himself makes the very same point in his prologue:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (kai ho logos een pros ton theon), and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God (houtos een en arche pros ton theon); all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen HIS GLORY, glory as of the only Son FROM THE FATHER (para patros), full of grace and truth." John 1:1-4, 10, 14

The Word, John says, was there even before the beginning of creation with God and as God! He even states that the Word created everything that has been made!

John uses the preposition pros which, when it is used with the accusative or direct object (as is the case here), refers to face to face relationship, to intimate discourse and fellowship. The late renowned Greek NT scholar A.T. Robertson wrote:

Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Proß with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of proß: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" (paraklhton ecomen proß ton patera). See proswpon proß proswpon (face to face, 1 Corinthians 13:12), a triple use of proß. There is a papyrus example of proß in this sense to gnwston thß proß allhlouß sunhqeiaß, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of proß here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koin, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom. (Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament; source)

The translators of the NET Bible concur with Robertson:

The preposition p??? (pros) implies not just proximity, but intimate personal relationship. M. Dods stated, "???? …means more than µet? or pa??, and is regularly employed in expressing the presence of one person with another" ("The Gospel of St. John," The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 1:684). See also Mark 6:3, Matt 13:56, Mark 9:19, Gal 1:18, 2 John 12. (Source)

This is not the only time where John spoke of Christ being with (pros) or coming from the Father:

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life -- the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFEwhich was with the Father (ten zoeen ten aionion een pros ton patera) and was made manifest to us -- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ." 1 John 1:1-3

The readers should take note of the fact that John here identifies Jesus as the very Eternal Life which was with the Father and who had manifested himself to the disciples! And:

"My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father (parakleeton echomen pros ton patera), Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1-2

Furthermore, in verse 2 of John 1 the Evangelist uses the masculine pronoun houtos in reference to the Word being with God:

"HE (houtos) was in the beginning with God."

The use of the masculine pronoun provides further corroboration that the Word is not simply an impersonal thought of God, but an actual Person. John, thus, pictures the Word as a living, dynamic Being who was existing in eternal fellowship with God and then became man.
Click to expand...
 
Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. John 6:64

Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. John 6:70-71

While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12

The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.Freely you received, freely give. Matthew 10:5-8
Click to expand...
Let me save you some time: I think John is heretical. I give absolutely no ducks about what he thinks.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Let me save you some time: I think John is heretical. I give absolutely no ducks about what he thinks.
Click to expand...

What makes John hereterical within a Christian context? He taught things that were consistent with the four gospels. The Gnostics taught salvation through knowledge, which is not consistent with what Job said about God being his Redeemer in Job 19:25.
 
Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Skywalker said:
What makes John hereterical within a Christian context? He taught things that were consistent with the four gospels. The Gnostics taught salvation through knowledge, which is not consistent with what Job said about God being his Redeemer in Job 19:25.
Click to expand...
There is a reason there are the synoptic gospels and lonely little John.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Kelly of the Phoenix said:
He was executed for breaking Roman laws. He ran from death until he couldn’t run anymore. I’m not impressed with someone who begs God to get out of the situation he helped create.
Click to expand...

Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. To do so he would have to be accused of breaking Roman laws. Jesus was executed because they didn't like that he was speaking the truth-he didn't create the situation of the crucifixion. He came to the earth because he was born to die.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top